Taxing a truck privately.

CiniO

As a last years thing which actually required people to tax their van's privately if they were not used for business purposes I started wondering what about big trucks.

Commercial tax for a truck unladen weight between 9 and 10 tons is €1632.
Anything over that is even more, going as high as €4496 for trucks of 20 tons and over.

If someone wants to tax such a truck privately he'll pay only €1566 as this is the motortax rate for engines bigger than 3.0 litre, so here can be a big saving.

I know that pretty much no one is going to use 10 tonne truck for private use, but how can it be checked or controlled?
Are the guards stopping trucks and checking if they are not being used commercially if taxed privately?

-Corkie-

You cannot tax a truck privately end of story. A truck is taxed by its weight and not by its cc.

ted1

if you drive it to the shops once during lunch to by a sandwhich then that's enough personnel use to get you in trouble for having in taxed commercially so yeah go for it.

Slidey

I don't believe you can tax anything that has an unladen weight of more than 3500kg privately

CiniO

-Corkie- wrote: »

You cannot tax a truck privately end of story. A truck is taxed by its weight and not by its cc.

Why?
According to law you can.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2008/en/act/pub/0024/print.html

Even more - if you want to use a truck for private purposes you can't tax it as a commercial vehicle.
Exactly the same rules as with vans.

5. Vehicles (including tricycles weighing more than 500 kilograms unladen) constructed or adapted for use and used for the conveyance of goods or burden of any other description in the course of trade or business (including agriculture and the performance by a local or public authority of its functions) and vehicles constructed or adapted for use and used for the conveyance of a machine, workshop, contrivance or implement by or in which goods being conveyed by such a vehicle are processed or manufactured while the vehicle is in motion—

That's the part which describes which vehicles can be taxed with commercial vehicle rates.

As you can see, if a truck is not used in the course of trade or businnes, it can't be taxed within this category.

The only category it can be taxed with is this one:

6. Vehicles other than those charged with duty under the foregoing provisions of this Part of this Schedule:

And that's the category where private tax rates are in.

-Corkie-

CiniO wrote: »

Why?
According to law you can.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2008/en/act/pub/0024/print.html

Even more - if you want to use a truck for private purposes you can't tax it as a commercial vehicle.
Exactly the same rules as with vans.




That's the part which describes which vehicles can be taxed with commercial vehicle rates.

As you can see, if a truck is not used in the course of trade or businnes, it can't be taxed within this category.

The only category it can be taxed with is this one:


And that's the category where private tax rates are in.

Shur if you knew all that why ask????

Go ahead and buy a truck and see how you get on.

CiniO

ted1 wrote: »

if you drive it to the shops once during lunch to by a sandwhich then that's enough personnel use to get you in trouble for having in taxed commercially so yeah go for it.

That seem to be bulls..t.

5. Vehicles (including tricycles weighing more than 500 kilograms unladen) constructed or adapted for use and used for the conveyance of goods or burden of any other description in the course of trade or business (including agriculture and the performance by a local or public authority of its functions) and vehicles constructed or adapted for use and used for the conveyance of a machine, workshop, contrivance or implement by or in which goods being conveyed by such a vehicle are processed or manufactured while the vehicle is in motion—

That's the descripition of vehicles which can be taxed as commercial.
It says that vehicle must be used for convoyence of goods in the course of trade or business, but it never says that it must be used solely for this purpose.

I can't see anything wrong with using such a vehicle during the break for going shopping of for lunch. There doesn't seem to be any regulation against which would be such use of that vehicle.

Hence it applies as well to vans and trucks, as they are the same category for tax purposes.

CiniO

-Corkie- wrote: »

Shur if you knew all that why ask????

Go ahead and buy a truck and see how you get on.

That's what the law says.
But maybe I'm missing something - that's why I ask here.

-Corkie-

CiniO wrote: »

That's what the law says.
But maybe I'm missing something - that's why I ask here.

Well you cannot tax it private. The tax office would not do it for you.

CiniO

-Corkie- wrote: »

Well you cannot tax it private. The tax office would not do it for you.

What do you mean they wouldn't.
If that's the law they would have to.

-Corkie-

CiniO wrote: »

What do you mean they wouldn't.
If that's the law they would have to.

They would tell you NO we will not tax it that way.

freighter

Slidey wrote: »

I don't believe you can tax anything that has an unladen weight of more than 3500kg privately

That is correct. I have a haulage business and it is not possible allthough your man seems hell bent that it is...:rolleyes:

Slidey

freighter wrote: »

That is correct. I have a haulage business and it is not possible allthough your man seems hell bent that it is...:rolleyes:

I bought a van that had s GVW of 4600kg but was taxed privately even though it had a Tacho.

When I asked in the tax office I was told it was because the unladen weight was below 3500. It was madness taxing it that way, it worked out a good deal more expensive that way.

It is back on commercial tax now

CiniO

freighter wrote: »

That is correct. I have a haulage business and it is not possible allthough your man seems hell bent that it is...:rolleyes:

Maybe there are some other regulations, which would forbid to have a truck over 3500kg for private use.
If there are, I'm curious which regulations is it.

But according only to finance act, not only it's possible to tax it privately, but if the vehicle is not used for commercial puroposes, it has to be taxed privately.

Obviously if there is some law according to which you can't have a truck for private purposes, that would explain why motor tax office won't tax if privately.

ted1

conio,
you must get a goods declaration form signed by the guards to state the vehicle will be solely used for commercial use. If it is at all used for private use you must tax it as private. You can still use it for commercial use.

testicle

You'd have bigger problems trying to insure it tbh...

spyderski

Think the OP might actually be onto something here. If you want to get commercial tax on a commercial jeep, you have to sign a declaration that it is NEVER used for social/domestic purposes. If it is, you have to tax it private. Now, why would the same rules not apply to a HGV - if you said you were going to use it for social/domestic purposes from time to time (eg taking it to a truck show at the weekends), the application of the same rule would dictate that you tax it privately.
The reason for the revenue insisting on the no private use rule is to stop people saving money by taxing vehicles commercially which would cost more to tax privately. If the opposite happens to be true, then thats no reason they can make an exception to their own rules.

CiniO

ted1 wrote: »

conio,
you must get a goods declaration form signed by the guards to state the vehicle will be solely used for commercial use. If it is at all used for private use you must tax it as private. You can still use it for commercial use.

I believe that's how it works, but it contradicts the law from MOTOR VEHICLE (DUTIES AND LICENCES) (NO. 2) ACT 2008 which I quoted earlier.

According to this act, vehicle which is used for carrying of goods (etc.) in the course of trade or business can be taxed with commercial tax rates.
It doesn't say it has to be solely for business purposes.

Even more - vehicles which can be taxed for private purposes, are only vehicles which don't fall into any of the earlier categories including the one I just mentioned.

So not only vehicle has to be taxed commercially if it's going to be used for commercial purposes, but also it can't be taxed privately then.

That's what the act say.

If in reality it works different, I suppose any disputies can be solved by the court.

ted1

conio,
you must get a goods declaration form signed by the guards to state the vehicle will be solely used for commercial use. If it is at all used for private use you must tax it as private. You can still use it for commercial use.

CiniO

ted1 wrote: »

conio,
you must get a goods declaration form signed by the guards to state the vehicle will be solely used for commercial use. If it is at all used for private use you must tax it as private. You can still use it for commercial use.

You posted it twice.

Just answer the question... Why?
If the law states something different.

ted1

because they do its the law, you can't use a commercially taxed vehicle for personal use. when was the lasat time you tried to tax a commercial vehicle??

squod

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQV9vMqhj3Y

Add Chris Eubank on FB and ask him what he done.

guil

commercial tax is more than private so they wont say anything for personal use aswell
the truck i drive is 3700 to tax for the year, check the declaration, it says it only applies to vehicles with a DGVW under 3500KG
http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/MotorTax/PublicationsDocuments/FileDownLoad,23874,en.pdf

PaulieBoy

-Corkie- wrote: »

You cannot tax a truck privately end of story. A truck is taxed by its weight and not by its cc.

Sounds like your know this inside out so how would I fare out here :
I buy a large flat bed truck to carry my vintage car around the place. It's not for reward just for private use only. How do I tax this?
I can't tax it privately end of story as per your understanding. I can't tax it for commercial use either as it's not for commercial use in any way.
How do I tax it ???
I guess I can't if your assertion is correct ...
SO it's free :-)

-Corkie-

You must tax it commercially. The hire and reward would not come in to it,that is only for insurance and the hauliers licence.

PaulieBoy

-Corkie- wrote: »

You must tax it commercially. The hire and reward would not come in to it,that is only for insurance and the hauliers licence.

But your not allowed to tax it commercially if it's for private use. Is this not the case ?
I was of the understanding that commercial tax was for commercial use only.

Slidey

Commercial use only up to a unladen weight of 3.5t

trad

If you can get it classified as a special contrivance it only costs €288

(c) Any vehicle (other than a vehicle constructed or adapted for use and used for the conveyance of a machine, workshop, contrivance or implement, by or in which goods being conveyed by such vehicle are processed or manufactured while the vehicle is in motion) constructed or adapted for use and used only for the conveyance of a machine, workshop, contrivance or implement (being a machine, workshop, contrivance or implement which is built in as part of the vehicle or otherwise permanently attached thereto) and no other load except articles used in connection with such machine, workshop, contrivance or implement or goods processed or manufactured therein, including any vehicle (commonly known as a recovery vehicle) constructed or permanently adapted for the purposes of lifting, towing and transporting a disabled vehicle, or for any one or more of those purposes,
€288

Big Nasty

Interesting topic!

I know a couple lads with American Big Rigs (just the tractor units) but they're all on classic tax AFAIK.

Satanta

Very interesting indeed. It certainty seems that there is a gray area here, and the possibility of a loophole that could potentially challenge the taxing of vehicles over the 3.5 tonne that are sometimes used privately. Another piece of legislation that was thoughtlessly introduced

-Corkie-

PaulieBoy wrote: »

But your not allowed to tax it commercially if it's for private use. Is this not the case ?
I was of the understanding that commercial tax was for commercial use only.

Yes thats correct but only on vehicles with a unladen weight of 3500kgs. The rules for a HGV are different.

For all the world it is the same as trying to tax a 07 car by the emissions and not CC.

-Corkie-

trad wrote: »

If you can get it classified as a special contrivance it only costs €288

(c) Any vehicle (other than a vehicle constructed or adapted for use and used for the conveyance of a machine, workshop, contrivance or implement, by or in which goods being conveyed by such vehicle are processed or manufactured while the vehicle is in motion) constructed or adapted for use and used only for the conveyance of a machine, workshop, contrivance or implement (being a machine, workshop, contrivance or implement which is built in as part of the vehicle or otherwise permanently attached thereto) and no other load except articles used in connection with such machine, workshop, contrivance or implement or goods processed or manufactured therein, including any vehicle (commonly known as a recovery vehicle) constructed or permanently adapted for the purposes of lifting, towing and transporting a disabled vehicle, or for any one or more of those purposes,
€288

+1. That is correct. The other OP was asking me about carrying around his vintage car so that would apply to him. God help you though if you were stopped whilst doing hire and reward.

CiniO

-Corkie- wrote: »

Yes thats correct but only on vehicles with a unladen weight of 3500kgs. The rules for a HGV are different.

For all the world it is the same as trying to tax a 07 car by the emissions and not CC.

You say the rules for HGV are different.
But how do you know?
Rules must be written somewhere in the law.

(d) subject to subparagraph (g) any vehicle which is—

(i) a new vehicle which is registered on or after 1 July 2008 under section 131 of the Finance Act 1992 as a category A vehicle, or
(...)


and which has a CO2 emissions level—

(I) not exceeding 120 grams per kilometre,
€104
(II) exceeding 120 grams per kilometre but not exceeding 140 grams per kilometre,
€156
(III) exceeding 140 grams per kilometre but not exceeding 155 grams per kilometre,
€302
(IV) exceeding 155 grams per kilometre but not exceeding 170 grams per kilometre,
€447
(V) exceeding 170 grams per kilometre but not exceeding 190 grams per kilometre,
€630
(VI) exceeding 190 grams per kilometre but not exceeding 225 grams per kilometre,
€1,050
(VII) exceeding 225 grams per kilometre,
€2,100

These are the rules from
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2008/en/act/pub/0024/print.html
And they clearly say you can't tax 07 car by the emissions.
But so far we didn't see any law which would forbid to tax trucks as private.

If you keep saying - no, because that's what the rules are - please show these rules.

guil

CiniO wrote: »

You say the rules for HGV are different.
But how do you know?
Rules must be written somewhere in the law.



These are the rules from
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2008/en/act/pub/0024/print.html
And they clearly say you can't tax 07 car by the emissions.
But so far we didn't see any law which would forbid to tax trucks as private.

If you keep saying - no, because that's what the rules are - please show these rules.

the answer is in your quote

wrote:

a new vehicle which is registered on or after 1 July 2008 under section 131 of the Finance Act 1992 as a category A vehicle

wrote:

“category A vehicle” means a vehicle other than a motor-cycle or a listed vehicle—

(a) which is designed, constructed or adapted, solely or mainly for the carriage of the driver alone or the driver and one or more other persons, or

(b) which is of not more than 3 tonnes unladen weight and has, to the rear of the driver's seat, a roofed area—

(i) which is fitted with one or more side windows, or

(ii) in which openings, suitable for the fitting of side windows, are or were incorporated and are not closed and sealed in accordance with such conditions as may be prescribed, or

(iii) in which one or more seats have been fitted or in which are provided fixtures or other devices for the purpose of fitting one or more seats, or

(iv) in which the floor is constructed or fitted otherwise than in accordance with such conditions as may be prescribed;

CiniO

guil wrote: »

the answer is in your quote


[/SIZE]

No it isn't..

It's obvious that truck in not an cateogry A vehicle. So it can't be taxed on emission basis according to quote above.
But it can be taxed according to engine size.

From the same SI

6. Vehicles other than those charged with duty under the foregoing provisions of this Part of this Schedule:
(...)
(e) subject to subparagraphs (f) and (g), other vehicles to which this paragraph applies and which—

(i) have an engine capacity—

(I) not exceeding 1,000 cubic centimetres,
€172
(II) exceeding 1,000 cubic centimetres but not exceeding 1,100 cubic centimetres,
€259

Hence that for engine size based private tax there's no limit only to category A vehicles.

guil

cat A and B are taxed on engine cc or co2 depending on year of manufacture
trucks fall into cat C and arent taxed on emissions

CiniO

guil wrote: »

cat A and B are taxed on engine cc or co2 depending on year of manufacture

No later that few posts above there was regulations quoted that CO2 bands apply only to category A vehicles.
So category B vehicles don't fall into CO2 bands.

trucks fall into cat C and arent taxed on emissions

But can be taxed on engine size basis if taxed privately.

-Corkie-

Ya trucks are in that category and are taxed by unladen weight. I dont have a link. Why dont you bring your truck to the tax office and try taxing it privately if you dont believe me.

CiniO

-Corkie- wrote: »

Ya trucks are in that category and are taxed by unladen weight. I dont have a link. Why dont you bring your truck to the tax office and try taxing it privately if you dont believe me.

I'm talking about theory and law here.
I don't have a truck myself.

The category you are talking about is described Act quoted before.

5. Vehicles (including tricycles weighing more than 500 kilograms unladen) constructed or adapted for use and used for the conveyance of goods or burden of any other description in the course of trade or business

So it clearly states, that if the truck is not used for business, it can't be taxed under that category.

Even if motortax office says something else, how do you think - what is superior? Law or statement of some lady in motor tax office?

-Corkie-

Sorry but I couldnt care I have a pain in my face.