Amps: 1x12,2x10,2x12 etc.

seachto7

howdee,

been researching the Laney vc30, but unsure if there is a major difference apart from size between the 1x12, 2x10, and 2x12.

I play a 40 watt blues deluxe 1x12, but want to go down in watts, so I can crank it a bit more, and get the tubes cookin'.

Should I stick with a 1x12, to at least sonically give me something in the same ballpark.

The 2x10, from what I have seen online in vids, looks pretty small, the 2x12, looks quite big. I suppose, I could always combine one of them with a speaker cab...

darrenw5094

For lower watt amp, maybe 1x12 is the way to go. A 10" speaker wont' sound the same. Check out the Blackstar HT-5 amp, then check it out connected to a 12" speaker. Much fuller sound from the 12" speaker.

seachto7

cool, I was going to plump for the vox ac30, but I have heard bad things about them. A sound engineer was raving to me about the Laney...... They had crossed my mind before as well..........

Demeyes

I'd go with the 1x12, it's a handy size compared to a 2x12 and I don't like 10 inch speakers for guitars, and you'll have a lot of choice if you want to change the 12inch speaker. Also there'll be almost no difference in volume between a 30 and 40 watt amp, it's likely you won't be able to crank it any more than your current amp.

seachto7

hmmmmmmmmm......

most I ever put my deluxe to is 3, if I'm lucky :(

maybe one of the 20 watt Laneys, the Lionheart.........

no place on this island with them though..........

Paolo_M

There's going to be very little difference between 40 watts and 30/20 watts, in fact I doubt you'll notice any difference at all.
I think you'll be very disappointed if that's the reason you're changing amps.

Hendrixfan

A Classic 30 has two channels, one normal and one lead. The lead channel has pre and post control so you can whack the pre up to overdrive the amp and then use the post to control overall volume, or you could save a few bucks and buy a TS808 having the drive low and level high to over drive the amp which is more or less same as above (pre / post).

seachto7

Hendrixfan. Are you talking about the Peavey classic 30 or the VC30?

Hendrixfan

Peavey. I think xmusic stock them, best try one out.

MarkDPC

One of my mates has a AC 30 and its one of the best sounding amps.

Everything also depends on what kind of music your into...If its, metal or punk Marshall or blackstar or peavey cab something along those lines. If its blues or something like that i'd look to get a fender cab. A 1x.. isn't as good as the 2x..

If your looking to go down in watts there are some amps out there with a damping switch which lowers the watts being produced. another route is an orange tiny terror, only 7 watts fits in normal sized bag and will blow the jocks off ya when its really cranked up.

MilanPan!c

There's also an attenuator that you can you with your existing blues deluxe, that basically is a volume knob between the pre and power amps (uses the fx loop of the amp)

same outcome, but much cheaper and you won't have to switch the amp.

Doc_Savage

attenuator would be the way to go! even as an investment.... they are not cheap but they are cheaper than an amp and afaik, Van halen had one and just left the head maxed out all the time to get the brown sound!

http://www.thomann.de/ie/cat.html?gf=attenuators&oa=pra

MilanPan!c

Doc_Savage wrote: »

attenuator would be the way to go! even as an investment.... they are not cheap but they are cheaper than an amp and afaik, Van halen had one and just left the head maxed out all the time to get the brown sound!

http://www.thomann.de/ie/cat.html?gf=attenuators&oa=pra

Just to be clear, all i'm really talking about is sticking a volume box or pedal in the fx loop to act as a master volume for the amp.

Doc_Savage

i've only used an attenuator on a head and cab setup.... it went between the amp and cab!

and as far as i can tell it can be rigged the same on a combo(not sure about the fx loop placement!)! with little or no wiring depending on the amp! it is not a master volume.... more the opposite!

MilanPan!c

Doc_Savage wrote: »

i've only used an attenuator on a head and cab setup.... it went between the amp and cab!

and as far as i can tell it can be rigged the same on a combo(not sure about the fx loop placement!)! with little or no wiring depending on the amp! it is not a master volume.... more the opposite!

Sorry, we're revering to different things.

Fender make a box that they call attenuator (pretty sure), which inserts a master volume into the gain structure, basically, by putting a volume knob between the pre and power amps, via the fx loop.

Lots of those powersoak type attenuators are horrible for amps... This master volume thing is not.

Doc_Savage

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Lots of those powersoak type attenuators are horrible for amps... This master volume thing is not.

i fail to see how an attenuator is horrible for an amp. do you mean tone wise? because that is as always subjective. Or do you mean that it could damage the amp?

Doc_Savage

ok i've copped on to what you were on about and looked up the "volume box" seriously that's what it's called... it's got brilliant reviews and for 20 dollars or something similar you couldn't go wrong could you?

https://www.carlscustomguitars.com/product.sc?productId=1&categoryId=1

the fact that it's going in before the power amp means it'll have to deal with attenuating far less power hence the big price difference. but i can't see it preserving the tone as well as a big one put in after the power stage.. that way the amp is working as intended.... but i have never even seen one of these things before so they might bring a new flavour to the tone?

even worth taking a punt on one! i was looking into getting a blackstar head and that might be the ticket for using it to jam....

thanks for the info man!:D

MilanPan!c

Glad you found that! Using one on Tuesday during rehearsal; will report back on sound quality.

As for damage, Van Halen destroyed amps endlessly with power soaks.

And check out this:

o**Will a power attenuator hurt my amp?
It is not uncommon for use of a power attenuator to result in a blown output transformer or power tubes. These breakdowns might be caused by using a resistive load, but blown OTs have also been reported when using the reactive Marshall Power Brake with a Marshall head (and Marshall has been known to replace such OTs under warranty). The ability to push the amp so hard yet quietly encourages pushing the amp past its natural limit, in which case the amp would have blown up anyway even when driving an actual cab at that level of output-stage saturation.

http://www.amptone.com/powerattenuatorfaq.htm

Paolo_M

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Glad you found that! Using one on Tuesday during rehearsal; will report back on sound quality.

As for damage, Van Halen destroyed amps endlessly with power soaks.

And check out this:

o**Will a power attenuator hurt my amp?
It is not uncommon for use of a power attenuator to result in a blown output transformer or power tubes. These breakdowns might be caused by using a resistive load, but blown OTs have also been reported when using the reactive Marshall Power Brake with a Marshall head (and Marshall has been known to replace such OTs under warranty). The ability to push the amp so hard yet quietly encourages pushing the amp past its natural limit, in which case the amp would have blown up anyway even when driving an actual cab at that level of output-stage saturation.

http://www.amptone.com/powerattenuatorfaq.htm

Marshall OTs are underspeced and would fail at that volume setting anyway.
The soak absolutely certainly is not responsible for the damage.
I've no hesitation in saying that site is full of sh*t and dangerously mis-informed.

The attenuator equivalent for a car would be a device that let's you run the engine at full revs but limits the speed.
Sure the engine will blow eventually.
It's not because of the limiter, it's because you ran the car at full revs over a long period of time which a car, and an amp for example, is not designed to do.
It's that simple.


The device you're talking about in the FX Loop is a volume control, just like the master volume on most amps.
The whole thing is a con. IT IS NOT AN ATTENUATOR.
You've been doubly conned if your amp already has a master volume as now you've two, doing the exact same thing.
It is completely different from what a power attenuator does.

Doc_Savage

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Glad you found that! Using one on Tuesday during rehearsal; will report back on sound quality.

please do! i'm intrigued by this thing!

As for damage, Van Halen destroyed amps endlessly with power soaks.

i'm calling BS on this one... i'm a massive fan of his and know he still has the amp he used for the first album sitting in 5150.

Paolo_M wrote: »

The soak absolutely certainly is not responsible for the damage.

i can't see how it would... it's only applying a load to an output that does not produce sound... speakers also induce load!

The attenuator equivalent for a car ..................... not designed to do.
It's that simple.

as a mechanical engineer i approve of this analogy!;)

The device you're talking about in the FX Loop is a volume control, just like the master volume on most amps.
The whole thing is a con. IT IS NOT AN ATTENUATOR.
You've been doubly conned if your amp already has a master volume as now you've two, doing the exact same thing.
It is completely different from what a power attenuator does.

this is exactly how i was originally thinking...

the power stage MUST have a high signal in order to produce a clipped and overdriven sound.... reducing the signal cannot achieve this in the same way as an attenuator! however reducing an already clipped signal will decrease resolution(by that i mean the amount of information in the analog signal) and weaken the tone... which is what you're trying to avoid!

if i re-read the reviews of that thing thinking like this then i can only see people who don't realize that it doesn't work in the same way! *take out of box, make amp quieter when the drive is up high, high fives all round*

and the blowing amp thing is blowing the transformer... ie. people maxing out an amplifier and then just adjusting the attenuator to suit their needs, i guarantee they say not to do that in the manual! but they probably just thought TL;DR:rolleyes:

MilanPan!c

What Id say to both of you guys is to look around online, fr instance:

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/archive/index.php/t-1095512.html

what you'll find is a lot of seemingly reasonable clues up people saying things like:

attenuators can damage your amp
attenuators can shorten the life of your tubes
attenuators will work, but only if set up carefully and used within certain limits
amps need to be re-biased when working with attenuators
attenuators are grand

Taking all of that on board, and considering Ive personally known an EVH freak that used a variac and killed his amp (tubes and power transformer, if I remember correctly) I would stand by my statement that using them can damage amps.

Now, as for the claim about EVH still owning/using his original 5150, he could easily do that and have pretty much destroyed it repeatedly, by replacing broken parts.

Finally, the fender amps in question do NOT have master volumes on their clean(er) channels, so inserting a volume box to use with the clean channel is not redunadant, and he guy that's lending me his swears by it.

I'll find out myself on tuesday.

Edit:

here's an interesting Q&A with Michael Soldano where he explains how variacs can contribute to shortening tube life if running the amp at lower voltage:

http://www.musicianshotline.com/archive/monthly/qa_soldano/04_03.htm

Most people seem to say:
lower voltage = shorter tune life
higher voltage = lots of problems like blown power transformers/tubes/etc.

I see very few people that say it will not have any impact on the functionality (tubes, etc.) of amps.

Which coninsides with all Ive ever heard.

Paolo_M

Ok. We need to clear up some stuff first, as a lot of the disagreement here is down to misunderstanding.

A Variac is not a power attenuator.
A volume pedal is not a power attenuator.

A Variac is a VARiable AC power supply. Reducing the mains voltage to the amp reduces the power output a bit, but it can very very harmful for an amp.
It runs the valves at much lower operating voltages than they were designed for. The heaters suffer most.

A power attenuator goes between the amp and cab. It wastes some of the power through heat, running a fan, running lights etc. The amp runs completely unaffected in any way, shape or form.
These days we should considering regenerative attenuators for energy savings!!!!! Joking aside, regenerative industrial motor brakes have been around for a few years and are widely used in manufacturing plants.
Anyone who claims anything otherwise for power attenuators are simply wrong, not my opinion but electrically indisputable fact.


Mike Soldanos article and the HC thread are both about Variacs.
They are both pretty much correct, but not relevant as power attenuator is a completely different thing.

The volume pedal in the loop simply does what a master volume does.
The disadvantage is that you loose a lot of the sustain and compression you get from driving a power amp a bit harder. An attenuator let's you achieve this.
That's why they are used. They are not harmful for your amp in any way.

Volume pedals can be handy for non master volume valve amps with a FX Loop for reducing volume. Personally I'd spent the money having a master volume fitted to the amp, and not be lugging a pedal around just to do that.
A post phase inverter master volume (a specific type of master volume) allows you to achieve some of that compression and sustain as it is placed within the power amp itself, and so would work way, way, way better than a volume pedal for that purpose.


EVH never used a Variac on his 5150, ever.
He used them on his non master volume Marshalls, they were fixed repeatedly over the years.
Any amp run completely dimed (every dial on 10) for hours every night would require regular fixing and replacing of parts, just like a rally car being raced every day. Nothing special there, it's what you'd expect.

MilanPan!c

Paolo_M wrote: »

Ok. We need to clear up some stuff first, as a lot of the disagreement here is down to misunderstanding.

A Variac is not a power attenuator.
A volume pedal is not a power attenuator.

A Variac is a VARiable AC power supply. Reducing the mains voltage to the amp reduces the power output a bit, but it can very very harmful for an amp.
It runs the valves at much lower operating voltages than they were designed for. The heaters suffer most.

A power attenuator goes between the amp and cab. It wastes some of the power through heat, running a fan, running lights etc. The amp runs completely unaffected in any way, shape or form.
These days we should considering regenerative attenuators for energy savings!!!!! http://www.musicianshotline.com/archive/monthly/qa_soldano/04_03.htmJoking aside, regenerative industrial motor brakes have been around for a few years and are widely used in manufacturing plants.
Anyone who claims anything otherwise for power attenuators are simply wrong, not my opinion but electrically indisputable fact.


Mike Soldanos article and the HC thread are both about Variacs.
They are both pretty much correct, but not relevant as power attenuator is a completely different thing.

The volume pedal in the loop simply does what a master volume does.
The disadvantage is that you loose a lot of the sustain and compression you get from driving a power amp a bit harder. An attenuator let's you achieve this.
That's why they are used. They are not harmful for your amp in any way.

Volume pedals can be handy for non master volume valve amps with a FX Loop for reducing volume. Personally I'd spent the money having a master volume fitted to the amp, and not be lugging a pedal around just to do that.
A post phase inverter master volume (a specific type of master volume) allows you to achieve some of that compression and sustain as it is placed within the power amp itself, and so would work way, way, way better than a volume pedal for that purpose.


EVH never used a Variac on his 5150, ever.
He used them on his non master volume Marshalls, they were fixed repeatedly over the years.
Any amp run completely dimed (every dial on 10) for hours every night would require regular fixing and replacing of parts, just like a rally car being raced every day. Nothing special there, it's what you'd expect.

this all makes sense to me.

To clarify a few tiny things. I'm pretty certain that the usage of 5150 was just an accident as EVH didn't use them until when? Late 80s?

My usuage of attenuator was loose, I can happily admit I was talking about variacs most of the time and incorrectly (as I see now) using the term interchangeably. My bad.

Re: compression and sustain, I'll def be check what affect this volume box has... I don't necessarily mind that as I can get compression and sustain pedals (giving me more control over those aspects anyway) for cheaper than a decent attenuator, from what I can see).

My main interest in the volume box is actually something that could probably be addressed by swapping the volume pot out for one with a musical taper (or
so I read). I.e. The difference between 0-2 on the amp is MUCH greater than the difference between 6-10... In rehearsal with a 6 piece band the amp sits at 1.5. It's just that loud (and we rehearse pretty quiety).

Paolo_M

MilanPan!c wrote: »

this all makes sense to me.

To clarify a few tiny things. I'm pretty certain that the usage of 5150 was just an accident as EVH didn't use them until when? Late 80s?

The 5150 came along after EVH usage of the Soldano SLO during the 80s.
Peavey offered him cash to work on an amp with them and the sound of the Soldano was what they "copied".
It's kinda weird 'cos the dimed Marshall tone from the early albums is the sound he's most famed for.
The SLO or 5150 doesn't really sound much like that.
The 5150 was first released in the early 90s.

It does seem like a proper audio taper volume control could sort your problem.
Normal taper volume are sometimes used on amps for the "shop floor factor".
Humans tend to perceive louder as better.
It's a bit cynical as it works on the presumption that consumers are poorly informed, but unfortunately it's probably also correct.

MilanPan!c

Paolo_M wrote: »

The 5150 came along after EVH usage of the Soldano SLO during the 80s.
Peavey offered him cash to work on an amp with them and the sound of the Soldano was what they "copied".
It's kinda weird 'cos the dimed Marshall tone from the early albums is the sound he's most famed for.
The SLO or 5150 doesn't really sound much like that.
The 5150 was first released in the early 90s.

It does seem like a proper audio taper volume control could sort your problem.
Normal taper volume are sometimes used on amps for the "shop floor factor".
Humans tend to perceive louder as better.
It's a bit cynical as it works on the presumption that consumers are poorly informed, but unfortunately it's probably also correct.

Yeah, all too aware of the louder is better nonsense.

I really just want the flexibility to control the amp at lower volumes, sustain and tone are obviously important when recording etc., but for me in my house, writing material, just to have a bit of flexibility between silent and too loud would solve my problem.

Thanks for all the good info as usual Paolo... Hey can I ask you one more quick thing, is changing a speaker difficult? Will I need to solder? Thanks man.. I really need to go on a tube amp maintence course or
something.

Paolo_M

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Yeah, all too aware of the louder is better nonsense.

I really just want the flexibility to control the amp at lower volumes, sustain and tone are obviously important when recording etc., but for me in my house, writing material, just to have a bit of flexibility between silent and too loud would solve my problem.

Thanks for all the good info as usual Paolo... Hey can I ask you one more quick thing, is changing a speaker difficult? Will I need to solder? Thanks man.. I really need to go on a tube amp maintence course or
something.

TBH, a lot of the advantages a power attenuator brings, or massive volumes, are only really advantageous for overdriven/distorted tones.
Non MV Marshalls only got that gain/overdriven tone when the power amp was driven to sh*t, they're actually quite clean amps at low volumes.

Sparkling, crystal clean tones can be had at any volume.
A nice compressor pedal does wonders in front of a clean amp to handle stray peaks and tame the tone a little, especially when you can't run it loud enough so the amp does it naturally.


Swapping speaker is pretty easy.
Most speaker use a push on tab so no soldering necessary, though I do anyway for additional safety. Only 'cos I can easily, I wouldn't suggest any go out of their way to do it.
Making sure all screws are tightened well and evenly should hopefully be obvious!!

What speakers are you looking to change to and why, if you don't mind my asking?

MilanPan!c

Paolo_M wrote: »

TBH, a lot of the advantages a power attenuator brings, or massive volumes, are only really advantageous for overdriven/distorted tones.
Non MV Marshalls only got that gain/overdriven tone when the power amp was driven to sh*t, they're actually quite clean amps at low volumes.

Sparkling, crystal clean tones can be had at any volume.
A nice compressor pedal does wonders in front of a clean amp to handle stray peaks and tame the tone a little, especially when you can't run it loud enough so the amp does it naturally.


Swapping speaker is pretty easy.
Most speaker use a push on tab so no soldering necessary, though I do anyway for additional safety. Only 'cos I can easily, I wouldn't suggest any go out of their way to do it.
Making sure all screws are tightened well and evenly should hopefully be obvious!!

What speakers are you looking to change to and why, if you don't mind my asking?

I have an amp that pushes 8ohms, I have a miraculous sounding vintage extension cab which is 16ohms. Wanna swap the internal 8ohm speaker for a 16ohm so I can run both in parallel so they're both at 8 ohms, so I don't ruin my power transformer.

So sourcing a vintage 12" 16ohm speaker.

Does that all make sense?

Paolo_M

MilanPan!c wrote: »

I have an amp that pushes 8ohms, I have a miraculous sounding vintage extension cab which is 16ohms. Wanna swap the internal 8ohm speaker for a 16ohm so I can run both in parallel so they're both at 8 ohms, so I don't ruin my power transformer.

So sourcing a vintage 12" 16ohm speaker.

Does that all make sense?

Ah, yeah.
I remember reading that thread.
Yup, makes sense.