Buying cattle privately

jag con

Hi all i am going to look at a couple of cattle and if they are fine i will buy them directly from the farmer [ save on marts fees etc] anyway what forms are required apart from my herd no details.
Am i right in saying its like buying a car off somebody privately i fill in the form with the farmer and i send it off to the dept and the cattle are transfered to my herd no.

JC

reilig

You need a cmms form which can be printed here:

http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/animalhealthwelfare/animalidentification/cattlemovementmonitoringsystem/NBAS%2031A%202.doc

The cattle owner needs to fill this out, print or fax it to the address on the bottom. The owner will the next day get a movement form which gives him permission for 30 days to move the particular animals. You just sign the forms and he returns it to the address on the form and the transfer is complete.

If the owner is using agfood.ie this form can be printed directly from the site or if both of you are using agfood.ie then there is no need to print it at all - you can just confirm the transfer online.

jag con

reilig wrote: »

You need a cmms form which can be printed here:

http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/animalhealthwelfare/animalidentification/cattlemovementmonitoringsystem/NBAS%2031A%202.doc

The cattle owner needs to fill this out, print or fax it to the address on the bottom. The owner will the next day get a movement form which gives him permission for 30 days to move the particular animals. You just sign the forms and he returns it to the address on the form and the transfer is complete.

If the owner is using agfood.ie this form can be printed directly from the site or if both of you are using agfood.ie then there is no need to print it at all - you can just confirm the transfer online.

Thanks Rellig for your prompt response i went onto the dept website last night and could not find any info.

One more question do i need a permit to move cattle as they would be moving about 115km to my place

JC

reilig

jag con wrote: »

Thanks Rellig for your prompt response i went onto the dept website last night and could not find any info.

One more question do i need a permit to move cattle as they would be moving about 115km to my place

JC

Are they moving to another herd number??

jag con

reilig wrote: »

Are they moving to another herd number??

No they are moving from his herd no to my herd no

JC

reilig

jag con wrote: »

No they are moving from his herd no to my herd no

JC

The above form is the application for the permit. It will be sent to the animals owner. It is in 3 pieces, 1 for you, 1 to be returned to the Dep and 1 for him. That's all you will need.

jag con

reilig wrote: »

The above form is the application for the permit. It will be sent to the animals owner. It is in 3 pieces, 1 for you, 1 to be returned to the Dep and 1 for him. That's all you will need.

Cheers Rellig thanks for that sorry i though there was something needed for moving animals a distance further than 65km i think i am mixing up what i read on the dept website

Thanks again

JC

reilig

jag con wrote: »

Cheers Rellig thanks for that sorry i though there was something needed for moving animals a distance further than 65km i think i am mixing up what i read on the dept website

Thanks again

JC

I moved a bull last week over 120km and there was no issue.

nellyg

Quick question. What is the time allowed between when the animals are transferred into your herd number and when the animals are actually brought onto your farm?

Kovu

nellyg wrote: »

Quick question. What is the time allowed between when the animals are transferred into your herd number and when the animals are actually brought onto your farm?

There's no set time per se but a few days without reasonable excuse I'd expect- you could have transport issues, animal lamed itself, sickness etc etc and that would get priority over moving the animals.

Sold animals private last year and the buyer forgot to move one into his herd on agfood. Never noticed until a fortnight later!

whelan2

Kovu wrote: »

There's no set time per se but a few days without reasonable excuse I'd expect- you could have transport issues, animal lamed itself, sickness etc etc and that would get priority over moving the animals.

Sold animals private last year and the buyer forgot to move one into his herd on agfood. Never noticed until a fortnight later!

isnt a permit normally valid for 28 days- as long as there are no tb tests due- and must be posted within 7 days of movement

Kovu

whelan2 wrote: »

isnt a permit normally valid for 28 days- as long as there are no tb tests due- and must be posted within 7 days of movement

I think it's 30 days but you're supposed to move the animal with the herd number iykwim. The permit can be printed off many days in advance but the movement should be completed on agfood or permit posted asap after the animal is moved. Not sure about the seven day thing to be honest!

Base price

nellyg wrote: »

Quick question. What is the time allowed between when the animals are transferred into your herd number and when the animals are actually brought onto your farm?

Same day and it is illegal not to do so. You should never accept a transfer (on Agfood) or sign a transfer movement unless the animals are in your possession/physically in your yard.
**Clarification: you purchase an animal privately and shake hands on the deal. Ye both exchange name, address and herd numbers.
Scenario 1 - both of you are registered on Afood.ie. Seller goes to the relevant section on Agfood and completes the movement. The movement is allowed - "A" status. Seller decides to deliver the animal to you cause they are a nice person. Seller phones you in advance of leaving the yard to let you know that they are on the way. Seller arrives into your yard with the animal and unloads it. You are happy, seller is happy, you pay for the animal and seller advises you of the Compliance Certificate Number. Seller leaves after a cuppa of tae, you log onto Agfood, quote the Compliance Cert Number and accept the movement - job done.
Scenario 2 - neither of you are registered on Agfood or only one of you is. Simular format but the seller has to either print off the Compliance Cert if they are registered on Agfood or apply for one in the post. Seller shows you 3 copies of Compliance Cert - one for you, one for the seller and the third is the Notification Copy to be forwarded to CMMS (Dept of Agri). You complete, date and sign the Compliance Cert. The responsibility of informing the Dept of Agri is on the purchaser (you) so you have to ensure that it is posted within 7 days of the animals arriving on your farm.
Irrespective of which method that is used animals cannot move from one herd to another herd unless accompanied with the proper Compliance Cert.
Selling animals to slaughter, export facilities, marts or the dead lorry don't follow the same rules as these facilities can accept animals without pre notification of movements. TB restricted herds can only sell to slaughter facilities or specific DAFM Approved feedlots.

Donegalforever

What is the current situation about buying cattled privately?
Are there any restrictions?

J.O. Farmer

Donegalforever wrote: »

What is the current situation about buying cattled privately?
Are there any restrictions?

You can get as close as you like to the cattle but not within 6 foot of the seller and definitely no shaking on the deal. Maybe nod appreciatively at each other.

Silverdream

Can someone clarify who is responsible for the transfer of the animal on agfood. I sold a Bull privately a while back, I created a movement cert, kept my copy and gave the buyer his copy and the movement notification certs.

Roll on 3 months later and I've a herd test due in the next few weeks, so I was going through the herd profile on agfood and notice that the Bull is still registered in my herd. I'm not sure how to proceed, I haven't made contact with the dept or the buyer yet.

Has this situation happened to folks before, and what was the outcome?

Siamsa Sessions

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122152584#Comment_122152584

It’s up to the buyer as far as I know. Give him a ring, tell him about the herd test, and create another movement cert/reference number for him to accept

Who2

I got a 3% penalty on an inspection because a bull hadn’t been taken in properly. I was told it was up to the seller.

Base price

I was told by a senior regional Vet that it's up to each herdowner to ensure that their blue book/online register is correct at all times vis a vie the cattle in their herd.

whelan2

I just post the movement form myself when I sell cattle, then you know it's done

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122152898#Comment_122152898

I do the same. I always check on Agfood a week or so later that any cattle we sold privately have been moved out be it manual or online movement.

Silverdream

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122152784#Comment_122152784

But how can the seller do the transfer, it has to be accepted by the buyer on agfood.

whelan2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122152584#Comment_122152584

What age is the bull? Would he need to be tested now to move him. The buyer mustn't have had a test either if they didn't notice he wasnt on the system

Silverdream

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122153196#Comment_122153196

Bull is 6 years old, he was tb tested last year but would be due to be tested now again in a few weeks. I have tried to contact the buyer but he hasn't gotten back to me.

Looks like I'll have to ring the dept and see what they say

whelan2

If over 3 years different rules apply

grass10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122153226#Comment_122153226

Contacting the dept will open a big can of worms for you they often just lock both herds immediately it was your responsibility to check agfood at least within a week and see if the buyer had completed the transfer and contact the buyer immediately it is far easier to trade animals through marts and no hassle

Sheep breeder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122152662#Comment_122152662

The onus on the seller is to get a valid movement cert and the onus is on the buyer to accept the animal into his herd, can’t create another movement cert after the animal wasn’t tested in his herd, will get a discrepancy letter about the animal not being on the TB test.

Sheep breeder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122153803#Comment_122153803

It’s not the sellers responsibility to check if the animal is moved, it’s his responsibility to hand over the card and the movement cert for the buyer to send back or accept into his herd, as Whelan says when selling send back the cert yourself and you know it’s done, we always send back the cert selling a bull.

visatorro

Dealer bought calves outta the yard in 2022. Herd test spring 23 I had a couple of animals extra on profile. Tbh couldn't remember where they went and I had no record of them. Had to report them stolen to get then off the profile..spring 24 , dealer send me a picture of the cards. Said yer man was a devil for not posting stuff and doesn't like having too much stock cause of nitrates. He obviously hid them from his own herd test. Because they were still in my herd it was my problem. Girl in dept laughed and said she never found cattle reported missing before.

whelan2

Try again and talk to the buyer before the dept. Try doing a movement now and see if it's approved.

Finty Lemon

simple rule- do all the processing of permits online at the time of movement. Create the permit on AgFoodoonce the deal is agreed and ensure the acceptance is complete at the point of loading, when buying or selling. If the other party isn't on Agfood then no trade. Too many times caught with the bullshyt of no forms sent in. If you have created the permit online then at least you know also that the stock are eligible to move.

whelan2

I don't know if I posted this before but around Christmas time a lad rang me, he'd sold heifers and told the buyer he could do the compliance form online. He lied, he could only check financial services on agfood. He said he didn't want to look stupid. So he asked me to do it. I could see were he tried to do it. The heifers were gone a few weeks at this stage.

On one occasion I posted the movement form and it never arrived in clonakilty. Rang them and they just said post it again

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122155672#Comment_122155672

The problem there is you are still relying on the purchaser to still accept the animal into his/herd herd

Probably the handiest way if you have been stung this way is hold onto the card until the movement is fully done. Going forward it so easy to do it for both sides either on agfood or the herd apps.

When buying calves here, it's load them into the trailer, create the app in the trailer and accept it before leaving the yard. It's fair on both sides

For the op, when it's sorted I wouldnt be surprised if the purchaser got and inspection in the coming months. It happened here about 15 years ago, forgot to send on the cert. Once both sides are clear and transparent on what happened if it's the buyer forgetting to send on the movement cert DAFM are ok.

Mistakes happen once in a bull moon with paper. Being forthcoming about resolving it will garnish you favour

Finty Lemon

I know! It can be a struggle. We just get them to do the confirmation at point of loading before cards are handed over. A lot of lads hate that "shur we'll sort that later" or "I forgot my log in" etc but it's the only way to be guaranteed the job is done. If you told them they could get a €500 top up.from the Dept by logging in they wouldn't be long figuring it out. And yes I'd run the stock back off the trailer if needed.

I had one incident where a 3rd part (dealer) lifted the cattle, we got paid OK but the paper work was weeks getting sorted and we ended up locked up with a TB breakdown in the meantime due to a backwards trace test. Never again. The Dept wold treat you like a criminal in those cases.

Sheep breeder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122155771#Comment_122155771

You were going to have a backward TB trace once the animal failed a test or show lesions one way or another. Should have moved into the dealers herd when you load the animals and stopped him jumping the cattle into another man’s herd off your permit.

grass10

IT would be much easier if lads stopped dealing with dealers in the yard and just trade in marts remember the dealer is only buying in the yard because they are cheaper in the yard than mart price the dealer will not buy in the yard if he has to pay full mart price

patsy_mccabe

The online movement system is flawed. You shouldn't be punished if someone else forgets to do something. I always keep a close eye on my profile online to make sure they are gone out of my herd.

Why doesn't the system contact the seller automatically if the buyer forgets to accept them?

whelan2

A good few compliance certificates are generated and not used