Dept. of Justice tell me I can't import a deactivated missile?

marti8

Hello, I've been getting more and more interested in militaria recently and now would like to start a small little collection. We're not rich or anything - far from it actually but I have seen a beauty of a missile for sale at an exceptional price, it's a deactivated anti-tank guided missile (an AT-3 Sagger, aka, 9K11 Malyutka) This is the actual missile that's for sale It is inert, inoperable, deactivated yet Justice are telling me no, you cannot import it quoting the 1990 Firearms Act. Even though I've explained it is a collectable. However as far as I can see they are misinterpreting the Act - the whole premise of the Act would refer to "live" ammunition (they are classifying it as ammo) This the email I received from the "Crime 4 Division" at the Dept. of Justice yesterday:

---

I refer to your recent query regarding the importation of deactivated missile.

Section 1 of the Firearms Act gives the definition of ammunition as:

“ammunition” (except where used in relation to a prohibited weapon) means

ammunition for a firearm and includes—

(a)grenades, bombs and other similar missiles, whether or not capable of being used with a firearm,

(b)any ingredient or component part of any such ammunition or
missile, and

(c)restricted ammunition, unless the context otherwise requires;"

The deactivated missile would be included in this definition.

Section 2 of the same Act deals with restrictions on the possession, use and carriage of ammunition and it states that you must in possession of a valid firearms certificate to hold ammunition.
Unless you have a valid firearms certificate for the ammunition in question, you will be unable to import or possess the deactivated missile.

---

However the whole premise of that Act is surely referring to active ammunition and active firearms - not deactivated! Are they bloody joking?! You need a firearms certificate to hold deactivated, inert ammunition? My response to them is the following (it's a bit repetative but bear with me)

---

Thank you for your email however I believe you have misinterpreted the act. I believe the act to be intended to refer to live ammunition not "dead" ammunition. Everything you have outlined is based on the premise that the ammunition (in this case a missile) is live rather than inert,
inoperable, deactivated. For example someone can import a deactivated
firearm http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1990/en/act/pub/0012/sec0006.html#sec6

The Act is based on the premise of live ammunition and live firearms
(with above exception) This would be the interpretation of any
reasonable person. The collection of so-called "militaria" is a hobby
and as such is well recognised worldwide, including Ireland. Again, I
would suggest that the Act refers to live ammunition and not deactivated
ammunition.

It makes little sense that under the Act one could import a deactivated
firearm however one could not import deactived ammunition (a
deactivated, inert missile in this case) Thank you for your email
however I believe you have misinterpreted the Act, not on purpose of
course. I don't want to seem difficult or anything it is simply that if
one can legally import a deactivated firearm it only stands to reason
that one can legally import a deactivated missile.

While the Act refers to the possibilty of importing a deactivated firearm it
makes no such expression regarding importation of deactivated ammunition
- it seems that the Act simply does not address the issue either way.
However it can be inferred that as a deactivated firearm can be imported
so too can a deactivated missile. The entire Act is based on the
premise that one is dealing with live ammunition, live firearms etc. I
would be dealing with deactivated ammunition. Just as I could import a
deactivated firearm I could also surely import a deactivated missile.
One does not need a firearms certificate to hold deactivated, inert
ammunition - why would one? What would be the logic behind it? The Act
is clearly referencing live ammunition. I hope you can reply and further
clarify the situation please. Thank you.

---

Has anyone ever been in such a situation trying to import such militaria? From what I can see I am correct and they are wrong, they are treating the inert, deactivated missile as though it was live when of course it isn't. Thanks.

FiSe

No, have never been in that position, but I think it states it clearly:

(a)grenades, bombs and other similar missiles, whether or not capable of being used with a firearm

marti8

FiSe wrote: »

No, have never been in that position, but I think it states it clearly:

(a)grenades, bombs and other similar missiles, whether or not capable of being used with a firearm

Yes but they are referring to live ordinance. I wouldn't of course be importing any live ordinance. The whole act is premised on live firearms and live ammo etc. A person can already import a deactivated firearm as a collectors piece, so logically why couldn't someone import a deactivated missile as a collectors piece? Deactivated means inoperable, inert, "dead".

Dr Strange

marti8 wrote: »

Yes but they are referring to live ordinance. I wouldn't of course be importing any live ordinance. The whole act is premised on live firearms and live ammo etc. A perswon can already import a deactivated firearm as a collectors piece, so logically why couldn't someone import a deactivated missile as a collectors piece? Deactivated means inoperable, inert, "dead".

You would have to ask them that question. I don't think you will have much luck with it though.

marti8

Preusse wrote: »

You would have to ask them that question. I don't think you will have much luck with it though.

Yeah, I have emailed and phoned already today. Hopefully I'll hear back from them tomorrow. Anyway, why do you think I wouldn't have much luck, I mean seriously what harm can a decativated wire guided anti-tank missile do? Why do I feel like smiling when I write that? But seriously, it's deactivated, the Act would be premised on the basis of the item being active, live. It isn't.

From what I can see the act doesn't deal with the issue of deactivated nuclear missiles at all? Guess they never foresaw such a circumstance? It does deal with deactivated guns though. But anyway, the Act is as I said premised on the ordinance etc etc being active and not a deactivated collectors item!

I guess an ICBM is out of the question so

Degsy

If i was gonna collect missiles i wouldnt be asking the DOJ was it okay..what did you think they were gonna say?

testicle

FiSe wrote: »

No, have never been in that position, but I think it states it clearly:

(a)grenades, bombs and other similar missiles, whether or not capable of being used with a firearm

There are live grenades, bombs and missiles that don't require a firearm to be used.

Would a Mortar tube be classified as a firearm?

No firearm required here, for instance...

marti8

Degsy wrote: »

If i was gonna collect missiles i wouldnt be asking the DOJ was it okay..what did you think they were gonna say?

Well, as naive as it sounds I thought they'd simply tell me it was fine as it was deactivated but I just wanted to double check to make doubley sure, so if I did go ahead and import it that Dublin mail centre doesn't go into lock down when they stumble upon what to them may look like an active missile - however the missile comes with documentation etc saying it's inert and also a customs decalration which will clearly indicate what it is and that it is deactivated and is simply a collectors item.

I'm tempted to simply import it and see what happens because from what I can see it isn't illegal to import such a deactivated missile. It may as well be made from plastic ffs - it's useless, cannot be used, it's a bloody empty shell after all. It was Customs who referred me to Justice - Customs said they'd don't care basically that as long as it's coming from within the EU, and it is, that they won't have any interest in it.

Topper Harley01

marti8 wrote: »

Yeah, I have emailed and phoned already today. Hopefully I'll hear back from them tomorrow. Anyway, why do you think I wouldn't have much luck, I mean seriously what harm can a decativated wire guided anti-tank missile do? Why do I feel like smiling when I write that? But seriously, it's deactivated, the Act would be premised on the basis of the item being active, live. It isn't.

From what I can see the act doesn't deal with the issue of deactivated nuclear missiles at all? Guess they never foresaw such a circumstance? It does deal with deactivated guns though. But anyway, the Act is as I said premised on the ordinance etc etc being active and not a deactivated collectors item!

I guess an ICBM is out of the question so

Presumably, the realistic fear is that naughty people would be able to reactivate the missiles with a little bit of engineering and explosives know how.

No point in handing CIRA or RIRA a semi built guided missile.

marti8

This is about €1,500 - doesn't include postage, lol. A Russian 2K12 Kub, aka, "Gainful" It's a surface to air missile. Yummy! It'd be a fecker to move if you're moving house or whatever.

marti8

Topper Harley01 wrote: »

Presumably, the realistic fear is that naughty people would be able to reactivate the missiles with a little bit of engineering and explosives know how.

No point in handing CIRA or RIRA a semi built guided missile.

No offence but then why the hell do they allow deactivated firearms into the country? Why do they allow people to keep shotguns at home? The Utterly Butterlys could just as easily get their hands on them surely. There are no explosives in this, it's a dud. It's deactivated. If anyone wants to build a bomb they can I guess, they can make an empty shell just as easy as importing (easier by the looks of it, lol) If they were that worried that it would end up in the wrong hands then why say I could import it if I had a firearms licence? Does having a firearms licence keep the naughty people away, lol. More likely it would attract them.

This deactivated missile is simply the deactivated missile on its own, not the firing mechanism, there is no guidance mechanism - that is a completely seperate thing which isn't for sale. I'd have no interest in it even if it was for sale. This is a wire guided missile Even if someone also had the guidance system they'd then need an active missile, this is not, lol. This is a deactivated dud - a hollow shell.

chem

Could you make a replica one? Wavan pipe painted up etc............?

arnhem44

Have you spoken with the Guards about importing this?,I would imagine if you were allowed such an item it would require documentation from the Guards the same as when you want to own and store a deactivated gun before any import license can be granted.Going around the fairs and shows in Ireland will show what some people have including deactivated ordnance but I can never recall seeing a missile in all that time.

FiSe

testicle wrote: »

There are live grenades, bombs and missiles that don't require a firearm to be used.

Would a Mortar tube be classified as a firearm?

No firearm required here, for instance...

Well, all I can read is that they are referring to: 'grenades, bombs and other similar missiles, whether or not capable of being used with a firearm' - and as there is no given specification it means, that they are talking about all of them, live or dead, red or white...

And yes, I think that mortar tube would be classified as a 'firearm' in this sense. I believe that there is some term explanatory paragraph in that law.

Otherwise, I don't really believe that bringing any de-activated missile into any country is such a simple thing anyway

citizen_p

marti8 wrote: »

This deactivated missile is simply the deactivated missile on its own, not the firing mechanism, there is no guidance mechanism - that is a completely seperate thing which isn't for sale. I'd have no interest in it even if it was for sale. This is a wire guided missile Even if someone also had the guidance system they'd then need an active missile, this is not, lol. This is a deactivated dud - a hollow shell.

the fear with it is, you could import the guidance system next week, you could hand it over (or be in yourself) the IRA and they'd fill it with explosives. (bad example as it looks like complicated kit, but mortar shells, etc... :pac:)

its more a threat with deactivated weapons, if they are capable of firing modern ammo (the weapon not the deact version your getting) i'd assume you would be turned down. if you import a gun with the firing pin gone, you could easily get somthing posted over a month later that allows you to replace the missing part.

I watched that custom show that was on rte a month or two ago, they destroyed an mg34 that was "dangerously close:rolleyes:" to being made into a working MG. and the next week they destroyed a sten gun.

marti8

Mousey- wrote: »

the fear with it is, you could import the guidance system next week, you could hand it over (or be in yourself) the IRA and they'd fill it with explosives. (bad example as it looks like complicated kit, but mortar shells, etc... :pac:)

its more a threat with deactivated weapons, if they are capable of firing modern ammo (the weapon not the deact version your getting) i'd assume you would be turned down. if you import a gun with the firing pin gone, you could easily get somthing posted over a month later that allows you to replace the missing part.

I watched that custom show that was on rte a month or two ago, they destroyed an mg34 that was "dangerously close:rolleyes:" to being made into a working MG. and the next week they destroyed a sten gun.

I don't think that's the fear at all, if it were then why would they say I could import it if I had a firearms licence? From what I can see there is nothing in the Act which states I can't import a deactivated missile. Deactivated guns are alluded to but deactivated missiles aren't. The Act itseld is based on the premise that the weapons, missile etc etc is live - that's the whole premise of the Act.

marti8

chem wrote: »

Could you make a replica one? Wavan pipe painted up etc............?

I've no idea, I don't even know what "wavan" pipe is?

marti8

arnhem44 wrote: »

Have you spoken with the Guards about importing this?,I would imagine if you were allowed such an item it would require documentation from the Guards the same as when you want to own and store a deactivated gun before any import license can be granted.Going around the fairs and shows in Ireland will show what some people have including deactivated ordnance but I can never recall seeing a missile in all that time.

No, no point speaking to them really, I have spoken to Justice and also to Customs. If I phone the local Garda station most likely they won't know and will simply refer me to Justice. If it was a deactivated gun I would need to get some type of certificate from the local Superintendent but this isn't a gun. The Act doesn't reference deactivated missiles, it only has one section which deals with deactivated guns.

When you say you have seen deactivated ordinance in Ireland what type of ordinance if you don't mind me asking? By the way, how hard is it to get a firearms certificate? What hoops is one required to jump through?

jill_valentine

(a)grenades, bombs and other similar missiles, whether or not capable of being used with a firearm,

(b)any ingredient or component part of any such ammunition or
missile

This bit here is the problem.

marti8

jill_valentine wrote: »

This bit here is the problem.

But unless I'm mistaken that is based upon the premise that the component, ingredient etc is actually active. The Act would never have been designed to prevent the legit importation of militaria collectables. The whole Act is based on the premise of live weaponry, ammo etc.

Just phoned the Gardai anyway, they weren't too sure. They said if it was a gun, a deactivated gun, I would apply to the superintendent for a cert but as this is in fact a deactivated missile they weren't sure but didn't see any major problem at the same time - but that was a personal opinion. Phoned Justice but they need to speak to someone else about it. God, who'd have thought importing a bit of steel or whatever it is would be so bloody complicated. Garda thinks Justice simply have never had someone phone up to ask "by the way what's da story with a deactivated missile...."

By the way, I wouldn't be importing a "component" part, I would importing the full missile - not broken down. Of course the explosive isn't in it but the missile itself exclusive of the explosive is whole.

jill_valentine

"any ingredient or component". Ingredients and components in themselves aren't really "active" as such - but they have the theoretical potential to be made so. That's what the Department are worried about, and not entirely unjustly.

You'll recall that the IRA had a knack for separately importing the Ingredients and Components to all kinds of mischief makers back in the day, and assembling them here. Canny with their hands, those lads, so long as they still had a few fingers left.

Deactivated rifles are one thing, and there are procedures in place in that regard - however anything related to explosive ordinance, no matter how tangentally, is necessarily more sensitive.

marti8

jill_valentine wrote: »

"any ingredient or component". Ingredients and components in themselves aren't really "active" as such - but they have the theoretical potential to be made so. That's what the Department are worried about, and not entirely unjustly.

You'll recall that the IRA had a knack for separately importing the Ingredients and Components to all kinds of mischief makers back in the day, and assembling them here. Canny with their hands, those lads, so long as they still had a few fingers left.

Deactivated rifles are one thing, and there are procedures in place in that regard - however anything related to explosive ordinance, no matter how tangentally, is necessarily more sensitive.

Sorry but if the CIRA, RIRA or even those other terrorists, Fianna Fail, want to build a missile they most likely can, they don't need to import them. They can build a homemade mortar or whatever. As for deactivated guns, if the State was so bloody frightened that "they" could steal them or re-activate firearms why the hell do they issue licences allowing deactivated fiirearms in the first place? But that's going all off track - back to basics, as far as I can see there's nothing in the Act saying I cannot import a deactivated missile. Of course I can't import an active missile, wouldn't want to in any case (it'd be too expensive :rolleyes:) but seriously, I cannot see where in the Act, recognising that the Act is based on the premise of live weaponry etc, which says I cannot import this bit of kit.

arnhem44

marti8 wrote: »

No, no point speaking to them really, I have spoken to Justice and also to Customs. If I phone the local Garda station most likely they won't know and will simply refer me to Justice. If it was a deactivated gun I would need to get some type of certificate from the local Superintendent but this isn't a gun. The Act doesn't reference deactivated missiles, it only has one section which deals with deactivated guns.

When you say you have seen deactivated ordinance in Ireland what type of ordinance if you don't mind me asking? By the way, how hard is it to get a firearms certificate? What hoops is one required to jump through?

I think Justice will refuse you permission to be honest.Whether or not this missile is deactivated rightly or wrongly.I've looked up some of the firearms acts and this one from 2008 which is part of the basis of there reason for refusal sent in the email to you would suggest that it is part of a projectile which are prohibited,5a is the one that stands out I think.I've linked below to the act itself.On the question you raised about a firearms certificate,if it's to bring in a deactivated firearm then no firearms certificate is needed.Whats needed is a document obtained from your local Super granted by him called an Article 7 which is then sent to the Justice Department along with a copy of the deactivation certificate when applying for a import license.Normally a visit from a crime prevention officer to your house is required to assess the security of the premises and what measures you may need to take to meet the requirements to hold deactivated weapons based on that meeting.After this once your told your to get your Article 7 you will get another visit from your local Guards to inspect your premises to make sure you have made the necessary requirements,these requirements are normally the installation of a proper gun safe(which will be checked to make sure it's secure) and alarm systems depending on what weapons you wish to hold.As for ordnance at shows,then there is normally mortar and grenades on display,whether illegal or not I can't tell you to be honest as I don't know.

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/JELR/Restricted%20Firearms%20and%20Ammunition%20S.I..pdf/Files/Restricted%20Firearms%20and%20Ammunition%20S.I..pdf

5. The following ammunition is declared to be restricted ammunition for the
purposes of the Act:
(a) ammunition with penetrating, explosive or incendiary projectiles and
projectiles for such ammunition;
(b) slug ammunition for shotguns;
(c) accelerator or sabot ammunition;
(d) grenades, bombs and other similar missiles, whether capable or not
capable of being used with a firearm, including explosive military

missiles and launchers;

xp90

Willie o dea will sort ya!!

marti8

arnhem44 wrote: »

I think Justice will refuse you permission to be honest.Whether or not this missile is deactivated rightly or wrongly.I've looked up some of the firearms acts and this one from 2008 which is part of the basis of there reason for refusal sent in the email to you would suggest that it is part of a projectile which are prohibited,5a is the one that stands out I think.I've linked below to the act itself.On the question you raised about a firearms certificate,if it's to bring in a deactivated firearm then no firearms certificate is needed.Whats needed is a document obtained from your local Super granted by him called an Article 7 which is then sent to the Justice Department along with a copy of the deactivation certificate when applying for a import license.Normally a visit from a crime prevention officer to your house is required to assess the security of the premises and what measures you may need to take to meet the requirements to hold deactivated weapons based on that meeting.After this once your told your to get your Article 7 you will get another visit from your local Guards to inspect your premises to make sure you have made the necessary requirements,these requirements are normally the installation of a proper gun safe(which will be checked to make sure it's secure) and alarm systems depending on what weapons you wish to hold.As for ordnance at shows,then there is normally mortar and grenades on display,whether illegal or not I can't tell you to be honest as I don't know.

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/JELR/Restricted%20Firearms%20and%20Ammunition%20S.I..pdf/Files/Restricted%20Firearms%20and%20Ammunition%20S.I..pdf

5. The following ammunition is declared to be restricted ammunition for the
purposes of the Act:
(

a) ammunition with penetrating, explosive or incendiary projectiles and
projectiles for such ammunition;
(b) slug ammunition for shotguns;
(c) accelerator or sabot ammunition;
(d) grenades, bombs and other similar missiles, whether capable or not
capable of being used with a firearm, including explosive military

missiles and launchers;

Thanks for that but you see the whole premise of the Act(s) itself is based on the fact that the ordinance, weaponry, ammo etc is live. This missile is deactivated. The Act would only cover a live or a deactivated gun - but this isn't a gun either. There is no section in the Act referring to deacivated missiles. The whole Act is premised on something being live. Basically the Act doesn't apply to deactivated missiles - although it does apply to deactivated guns, if you see what I mean. Thanks anyway.

arnhem44

Maybe it will be a case of slugging it out with Justice and see how it goes,could take a long time though.I remember reading somewhere on here about someone getting into trouble for having brass shells which were deemed as component parts.They will be bringing in a new act after all this when Enda gets to hear someone wants to bring in a missile,lol.

marti8

arnhem44 wrote: »

Maybe it will be a case of slugging it out with Justice and see how it goes,could take a long time though.I remember reading somewhere on here about someone getting into trouble for having brass shells which were deemed as component parts.They will be bringing in a new act after all this when Enda gets to hear someone wants to bring in a missile,lol.

Oh well, we'll see what happens but me wants me missile I think Auntie Edna will have her hands full between bank bailouts and a wrecked economy, a dud missile that's a collectors item won't be too high up on her list of priorities! :pac: