Ireland's electoral "change" bemuses Europeans

Dionysus

This morning on Morning Ireland here a guy was talking about how "from the outside looking in you have a centre-right Christian party replacing the government". Similarly on Drivetime this afternoon, a guy from a German newspaper expressed his shock that the Irish essentially voted for a party which was politically the same as the one which they replaced. He said that in Europe, and particularly Germany, people would vote for a party that was directly the opposite of the party which offended people.

Do the Irish have a fairly unique understanding of the words "radical" and revolutionary" if they believe that Fine Gael is radically different from Fianna Fáil?

mike65

The Germans voted Nazi 1936 and look where that went.

Dionysus

mike65 wrote: »

The Germans voted Nazi 1936 [sic] and look where that went.

Er, ever hear of the Enabling Act 1933?

hatrickpatrick

Dionysus wrote: »

This morning on Morning Ireland here a guy was talking about how "from the outside looking in you have a centre-right Christian party replacing the government". Similarly on Drivetime this afternoon, a guy from a German newspaper expressed his shock that the Irish essentially voted for a party which was politically the same as the one which they replaced. He said that in Europe, and particularly Germany, people would vote for a party that was directly the opposite of the party which offended people.

Do the Irish have a fairly unique understanding of the words "radical" and revolutionary" if they believe that Fine Gael is radically different from Fianna Fáil?

The problem? There's f*ck all else to choose from

It's revolutionary because FF have always been a dominant party and now they are finished. With any luck, for good.

This would then pave the way for a proper multi party democracy to emerge at the NEXT election. If you want to start a new party, do it now.

PeterIanStaker

I don't like FG, but they do differ from FF in that they don't seem to be as contaminated to their very bone marrow with corruption.

Now, there's absoloutely no doubt in my mind that there are corrupt FG men on the take as we speak, but they haven't accumulated three decades worth of race tent cronyism and jobs for the boys.

Not yet, but I'm sure they'll be just like FF in a few years.

Either way, we're f---ed.

bmaxi

I thought it was fairly well understood that Irish politics is divided pro and anti Treaty rather than left and right. We have as much understanding of what is left and right in politics as they have in the U.S.

Maglight

There's about as much difference between Fianna Fail and Fine Gael as there is between the Conservatives and New Labour or the Republicans and the Democrats. It's not that unusual a scenario.

What's interesting now is that for the first time Ireland will have an opposition that is largely left wing (excluding FF of course)

Pete_Cavan

Dionysus wrote: »

This morning on Morning Ireland here a guy was talking about how "from the outside looking in you have a centre-right Christian party replacing the government". Similarly on Drivetime this afternoon, a guy from a German newspaper expressed his shock that the Irish essentially voted for a party which was politically the same as the one which they replaced. He said that in Europe, and particularly Germany, people would vote for a party that was directly the opposite of the party which offended people.

Do the Irish have a fairly unique understanding of the words "radical" and revolutionary" if they believe that Fine Gael is radically different from Fianna Fáil?

FF are not a centre-right part, FG are. They are completely different.

ei.sdraob

For &%^* sake what is it with people calling Fianna Fail "center right" they are not &%^*&%^* center right


arghghhghghghghg

mike65

Transposing definitions of political parties across borders is pointless and frustrataing. Reading the Guardians coverage of the election (and the whole fiscal fck up) is amusing as they try and usually fail to accurately convey the enivronment to British readers.

LaBaguette

Well, most European countries still have a political life that can be read along the left/right divide, even though defining left and right can be tricky. But Ireland simply has not. To my (French) eye, ideological differences between FF and FG are almost nonexistent, and seem to come out on side topics. Of course, the current context will lead to "FF boom policies" vs "FG post-crisis policies", but they are caused by the context, not political differences. And I'd be interested in hearing the arguments against FF being labeled center-right.

ei.sdraob

LaBaguette wrote: »

Well, most European countries still have a political life that can be read along the left/right divide, even though defining left and right can be tricky. But Ireland simply has not. To my (French) eye, ideological differences between FF and FG are almost nonexistent, and seem to come out on side topics. Of course, the current context will lead to "FF boom policies" vs "FG post-crisis policies", but they are caused by the context, not political differences. And I'd be interested in hearing the arguments against FF being labeled center-right.

Their history




Fianna Fail are no more right wing than the Peoples Democratic Republic of Korea is democratic

actions speak for themselves, if I told you that a party went on such a mad spending spree of similar scale without telling their name or country first thing one would think is "where is this socialist utopia?"

paul71

LaBaguette wrote: »

Well, most European countries still have a political life that can be read along the left/right divide, even though defining left and right can be tricky. But Ireland simply has not. To my (French) eye, ideological differences between FF and FG are almost nonexistent, and seem to come out on side topics. Of course, the current context will lead to "FF boom policies" vs "FG post-crisis policies", but they are caused by the context, not political differences. And I'd be interested in hearing the arguments against FF being labeled center-right.

Ok LaBaguette at risk of sounding repeatative. Over the course of 80 years, Isolationist economics, protecting Irish state owned industry by imposing excise duties on imported goods. Started a trade war with our biggest trade partner the UK before WW2.

Kept us out of EEC in pursuit of this policy until economic reality forced them to accept that we had to join eventually. High puplic spending in 70 s80s eventually severve government debt forced them to introduce drastic budgets in late 80s.

1990s under Renolds eventually did move to a true centre right position and this government along with another centre right FG lead government brought in policies that created the real Celtic Tiger.

00s under Ahern moved back to centre left and spent vast of amounts of money on social welfare, cival service and Tax breaks for property developement instead of real industry - The False Celtic Tiger.

They were always centre left unless econimic reality forced them to the right, hence the common misperception.

Nolanger

mike65 wrote: »

The Germans voted Nazi 1936 and look where that went.

Yeh, the autobahns, linked smoking to cancer, the first jet plane, magnetic audio tape, the rotary engine, and the Old Spice music O Fortuna.
What will Fine Gael give us?

Pete_Cavan

LaBaguette wrote: »

Well, most European countries still have a political life that can be read along the left/right divide, even though defining left and right can be tricky. But Ireland simply has not. To my (French) eye, ideological differences between FF and FG are almost nonexistent, and seem to come out on side topics. Of course, the current context will lead to "FF boom policies" vs "FG post-crisis policies", but they are caused by the context, not political differences. And I'd be interested in hearing the arguments against FF being labeled center-right.

Benchmarking, high public spending, creating a huge number of state agencies, increasing social welfare payments above the rate of inflation.

The problem is that FF are a populist party. They dont subsribe to any political doctine and do whatever they think will get them the most votes - that is until they f*cked everything up. Apparently high public spending and low taxes over a long period of time leads to an overwhelming budget deficit!

Dionysus

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

FF are not a centre-right part, FG are. They are completely different.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

For &%^* sake what is it with people calling Fianna Fail "center right" they are not &%^*&%^* center right


arghghhghghghghg

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Benchmarking, high public spending, creating a huge number of state agencies, increasing social welfare payments above the rate of inflation.

The problem is that FF are a populist party. They dont subsribe to any political doctine and do whatever they think will get them the most votes - that is until they f*cked everything up. Apparently high public spending and low taxes over a long period of time leads to an overwhelming budget deficit!

The delusions - or is it propaganda? - continue. Just where is this Fine Gael party that is not populist? Is it the Fine Gael party whose 2007 election manifesto witnessed it buying off almost every section of society, a manifesto which has been removed from the Fine Gael website because it shows that Fine Gael was not the party of "fiscal responsibility" at the last election that it now incessantly claims it was?

Some of Fine Gael's 2007 populist election promises were:

- Increase the Old Age Pension to €300.
- Cut stamp duty.
- Cut 20% tax rate to 18%.
- Free medical insurance for all under 16.
- Free GP visits for children under 5.
- Sell State land where appropriate for the provision of more social and affordable housing.
- Planned expansion of vital capacity (2,300 Acute Beds, 1,500 Convalescence).
- Free Health Insurance for every child under 16.
- Free GP visits for every child under 5.
- Bail harder to get and electronic tagging if needed.
- No prison remission without earning it.
- Extend medical cards to 100,000 more families.



Is your supposedly non-populist Fine Gael any connection to the Fine Gael party which only the other day made it a plank of its election campaign to bribe house purchasers during the boom in an attempt to get into government in 2011? Yes, the supposedly uniquely "centre right" party in Ireland which seeks to use state funds to subvent private citizens who took risks on the market and lost.

Explain, please, how the fúck such immoral election promises from the future government of a bankrupt state are not populism of the worst sort.

meglome

Dionysus wrote: »

Some of Fine Gael's 2007 populist election promises were:

- Increase the Old Age Pension to €300.
- Cut stamp duty.
- Cut 20% tax rate to 18%.
- Free medical insurance for all under 16.
- Free GP visits for children under 5.
- Sell State land where appropriate for the provision of more social and affordable housing.
- Planned expansion of vital capacity (2,300 Acute Beds, 1,500 Convalescence).
- Free Health Insurance for every child under 16.
- Free GP visits for every child under 5.
- Bail harder to get and electronic tagging if needed.
- No prison remission without earning it.
- Extend medical cards to 100,000 more families.

Let's take a step back. In 2002 FG disagreed with benchmarking and other spending, they got a serious kicking in the election. So the electorate spoke and told all parties that whoever promised the most got the votes. So rather than single out FG let's look at us, yes us. The people who were happy to accept high spending and low-taxes while all the while believing that was perfectly reasonable - no questions about how it's possible to pay for that.

I very much doubt any other party would have let things go as far as FF did. There was a time for easing off on property but they fuelled it instead.

edwinkane

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Their history




Fianna Fail are no more right wing than the Peoples Democratic Republic of Korea is democratic

actions speak for themselves, if I told you that a party went on such a mad spending spree of similar scale without telling their name or country first thing one would think is "where is this socialist utopia?"

Perhaps you forget "right wing" in not an attempt to describe a political stance, but meant as a term of abuse.

Solair

The electorate wasn't looking for a radical new political philosophy. The result was entirely about ridding the system of a party which is considered to be incompetent and corrupt.

We seem happy enough with centrist government with hints of centre left.

Political philosophy wasn't what caused the problem, cronies and stupidity did it.

Sgt. Sensible

mike65 wrote: »

The Germans voted Nazi 1936 and look where that went.

I don't mind so much that you got the year wrong, but the 1933 election in Germany could hardly be described as free and fair by any standards. Why not do some research and find out who voted for the nazis and why, and then ask yourself who you would have supported.

irishh_bob

Dionysus wrote: »

This morning on Morning Ireland here a guy was talking about how "from the outside looking in you have a centre-right Christian party replacing the government". Similarly on Drivetime this afternoon, a guy from a German newspaper expressed his shock that the Irish essentially voted for a party which was politically the same as the one which they replaced. He said that in Europe, and particularly Germany, people would vote for a party that was directly the opposite of the party which offended people.

Do the Irish have a fairly unique understanding of the words "radical" and revolutionary" if they believe that Fine Gael is radically different from Fianna Fáil?

our PR system makes real change very difficult , its a recipe for luke warm , watered down goverment formation

Iwannahurl

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Their history

http://i55.tinypic.com/254ykiv.png


Fianna Fail are no more right wing than the Peoples Democratic Republic of Korea is democratic

actions speak for themselves, if I told you that a party went on such a mad spending spree of similar scale without telling their name or country first thing one would think is "where is this socialist utopia?"

That's a very interesting and useful table. Source?

I have to agree with other posters. FF are not centre-right in ideological terms, nor are they socialist. They are masters of populism, and have operated very successfully for decades on the basis of clientelism, patronage, corruption and crony capitalism. Up to now, that is.

I'm not a FG supporter, and I absolutely despise how the party has colluded with FF at local authority level to bring about the frenzy of unsustainable rezoning throughout most of this benighted republic. I also really dislike their more right-wing element, like this Dublin councillor.

I am hopeful, however, that at national level FG under Enda Kenny will combine with Labour to give us the first good government in many years.

ei.sdraob

Iwannahurl wrote: »

That's a very interesting and useful table. Source?

sure here

Iwannahurl

From the same document (National Recovery Plan):

Government expenditure will be reduced by €10 billion by 2014:

• Current and capital expenditure approximately €7 billion and €3 billion lower, respectively;

• Total Government expenditure will fall from 49% of GNP to 36% by 2014.

Scary.





.

ei.sdraob

That document has so much spin it its not funny, was written by FF for FF

The fact that the dept of finance are proud of the out of control spending they were involved in makes you wonder if any lessons have been learned there.

edwinkane

ei.sdraob wrote: »

That document has so much spin it its not funny, was written by FF for FF

The fact that the dept of finance are proud of the out of control spending they were involved in makes you wonder if any lessons have been learned there.

The answer to that is, surely, obvious. Anyone who thinks lessons will be learned is deluding themselves. Governments are rewarded with more power and more influence the more they tax and spend. there is no incentive to be efficient or to reduce their budgets and pass the "savings" back to the taxpayers.

Until the electorate realise this, and punish the high spenders, so the system enjoyed in Ireland will continue, and the present difficulties are just an obstacle to be managed, rather than a problem to be solved.

Lawrence1895

Dionysus wrote: »

This morning on Morning Ireland here a guy was talking about how "from the outside looking in you have a centre-right Christian party replacing the government". Similarly on Drivetime this afternoon, a guy from a German newspaper expressed his shock that the Irish essentially voted for a party which was politically the same as the one which they replaced. He said that in Europe, and particularly Germany, people would vote for a party that was directly the opposite of the party which offended people.

Do the Irish have a fairly unique understanding of the words "radical" and revolutionary" if they believe that Fine Gael is radically different from Fianna Fáil?

Do you know which newspaper from Germany it was? There are some, which surely expressed their delight, that FG won the election, but there were others, which expressed their concerns.

And as far as I know, the Germans are not that daft at all, they know quite well that FF and FG have a different background.

PorridgeHead

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The problem is that FF are a populist party. They dont subsribe to any political doctine and do whatever they think will get them the most votes - that is until they f*cked everything up. Apparently high public spending and low taxes over a long period of time leads to an overwhelming budget deficit!

Is it because of this "Populist Politics" system that our political elite have a "be in power at all costs" mentality, without the skills needed to actually be PUBLIC SERVANTS. Taking the salary and the pension from the "career in politics" has been allowed to override the fact that Politicians should be elected to do what is needed for the overall population, and to regulate and legislate in the interests of the electorate. Our Populist Party Politics system fails miserably when the "Benevolence" of being a Senior Public Servant becomes secondary to a strong party whip system.

Perhaps elections should be annually? Yeah, very inconvenient, but it gives the power back to the people to say "Keep doing the good job" or "you made false promises to take the big pay and pension (so P!ss off)".

But do you see FG or Labour or even SF advocating such a system of accountability and responsibility?... Nah.

edwinkane

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Benchmarking, high public spending, creating a huge number of state agencies, increasing social welfare payments above the rate of inflation.

The problem is that FF are a populist party. They dont subsribe to any political doctine and do whatever they think will get them the most votes - that is until they f*cked everything up. Apparently high public spending and low taxes over a long period of time leads to an overwhelming budget deficit!

The problem is not that FF are a populist party, the problem is that the electorate have fallen for it every time, which is why Ireland is in the mess it is in.

The worry is that the electorate is still the same electorate, and has not changed.

Iwannahurl

edwinkane wrote: »

The problem is not that FF are a populist party, the problem is that the electorate have fallen for it every time, which is why Ireland is in the mess it is in.

The worry is that the electorate is still the same electorate, and has not changed.

A populist party can't exist without at least a large section of the population being willing to participate. It has always stuck in my craw that there were often more FF than Labour supporters among the unions, for example.

FF are past masters of buying elections, and successive electorates have taken the bait without thought for the sustainability of the policies, eg the abolition of rates promised in 1977.

Labour's tax-cutting stroke in advance of the 2007 election was an example of such auction politics.

K-9

Dionysus wrote: »

The delusions - or is it propaganda? - continue. Just where is this Fine Gael party that is not populist? Is it the Fine Gael party whose 2007 election manifesto witnessed it buying off almost every section of society, a manifesto which has been removed from the Fine Gael website because it shows that Fine Gael was not the party of "fiscal responsibility" at the last election that it now incessantly claims it was?

Some of Fine Gael's 2007 populist election promises were:

- Increase the Old Age Pension to €300.
- Cut stamp duty.
- Cut 20% tax rate to 18%.
- Free medical insurance for all under 16.
- Free GP visits for children under 5.
- Sell State land where appropriate for the provision of more social and affordable housing.
- Planned expansion of vital capacity (2,300 Acute Beds, 1,500 Convalescence).
- Free Health Insurance for every child under 16.
- Free GP visits for every child under 5.
- Bail harder to get and electronic tagging if needed.
- No prison remission without earning it.
- Extend medical cards to 100,000 more families.



Is your supposedly non-populist Fine Gael any connection to the Fine Gael party which only the other day made it a plank of its election campaign to bribe house purchasers during the boom in an attempt to get into government in 2011? Yes, the supposedly uniquely "centre right" party in Ireland which seeks to use state funds to subvent private citizens who took risks on the market and lost.

Explain, please, how the fúck such immoral election promises from the future government of a bankrupt state are not populism of the worst sort.

Tbh, most of the electorate seemed to have learned nothing from the mess.

That campaign was auction politics and FF, FG and Labour were all at it, a competition for the lowest tax rate.

This one was about the least tax rises and FG won that.

They'll just privatise everything instead or push it onto Local Authorities to implement water and property rates.

Even with VAT, they are going to reduce the lower rate.

FreudianSlippers

I'd love to have voted for someone radically different than FF, but my only other option were a bunch of socialists. So that left be with FF (a wasted vote) of FG.

petroltimer

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'd love to have voted for someone radically different than FF, but my only other option were a bunch of socialists. So that left be with FF (a wasted vote) of FG.

I bloody hate socialists, they really want to suck the life out of you, turn into a socialist and you seem to lose the will to shave and dress well,

beards and brown trousers no thanks!

So well done Ireland the worst recession ever and we still had the foresight not to vote in socialists:D

Monty Burnz

Dionysus wrote: »

Some of Fine Gael's 2007 populist election promises were:

- Increase the Old Age Pension to €300.
- Cut stamp duty.
- Cut 20% tax rate to 18%.
- Free medical insurance for all under 16.
- Free GP visits for children under 5.
- Sell State land where appropriate for the provision of more social and affordable housing.
- Planned expansion of vital capacity (2,300 Acute Beds, 1,500 Convalescence).
- Free Health Insurance for every child under 16.
- Free GP visits for every child under 5.
- Bail harder to get and electronic tagging if needed.
- No prison remission without earning it.
- Extend medical cards to 100,000 more families.

In 2007, FG clearly decided to pander to the stupidity of the Irish voter to try to wean them away from Fianna Failure. Even that didn't work.

They should have told the truth about the bubble, and the bust that was to come, but we all know that the Irish electorate would have wiped them out if they did, so why would they have? There's no incentive in Ireland for politicians to be competent, or honest.

We get the politicians that we deserve.

Amtmann

The reasons why we don't have a prominent left-right split are historical.

Primarily it's because we had no industrial revolution, and, consequently, we didn't urbanise to any great degree. Urban slums gave rise to left wing politics (and, gradually, secularism) in the 1800s and 1900s; instead, Ireland had rural, catholic, conservative republicanism. Most human progress arises in cities.

In any case, FF are populist while FG are centre-right. They are quite different in my opinion.

mewso

It's laughable to describe FF in terms of left or right. They have one ethos. Get into power and keep it as long as possible. That political compass thing needs updating:-

Lawrence1895

petroltimer wrote: »

I bloody hate socialists, they really want to suck the life out of you, turn into a socialist and you seem to lose the will to shave and dress well,

beards and brown trousers no thanks!

So well done Ireland the worst recession ever and we still had the foresight not to vote in socialists:D

I just hate Socialists, who call themselves 'Socialists', but betray the true idea behind Socialism, where ever and whenever they can.

I won't mention any names though

oppenheimer1

paul71 wrote: »

Ok LaBaguette at risk of sounding repeatative. Over the course of 80 years, Isolationist economics, protecting Irish state owned industry by imposing excise duties on imported goods. Started a trade war with our biggest trade partner the UK before WW2.

Kept us out of EEC in pursuit of this policy until economic reality forced them to accept that we had to join eventually. High puplic spending in 70 s80s eventually severve government debt forced them to introduce drastic budgets in late 80s.

1990s under Renolds eventually did move to a true centre right position and this government along with another centre right FG lead government brought in policies that created the real Celtic Tiger.

00s under Ahern moved back to centre left and spent vast of amounts of money on social welfare, cival service and Tax breaks for property developement instead of real industry - The False Celtic Tiger.

They were always centre left unless econimic reality forced them to the right, hence the common misperception.

Ireland wanted to join the EEC much sooner than it did but was prevented by De Gaulles opposition to the entry of the UK into the community. It is no coincidence the two countries joined at the same time

Seanchai

mewso wrote: »

It's laughable to describe FF in terms of left or right. They have one ethos. Get into power and keep it as long as possible. That political compass thing needs updating:-

Wait until Fine Gael get a taste of power and it will be they who'll be hopping around that graph. Shane Ross, a former member of Fine Gael, was on the radio yesterday and he stated, clearly, that one of his abiding memories of politics in the 1990s was that Fine Gael, when it got into government, was just as much into cronyism and rewarding its supporters with political office as ever Fianna Fáil was. He went further and said he doesn't expect anything to be different this time. It was a fascinating interview which should give food for thought to anybody who thinks Fine Gael is, or has been, different to Fianna Fáil when it gets into office. The only difference is they haven't been in office as for anything near as long as Fianna Fáil.

Iwannahurl

petroltimer wrote: »

I bloody hate socialists, they really want to suck the life out of you, turn into a socialist and you seem to lose the will to shave and dress well,

beards and brown trousers no thanks!

So well done Ireland the worst recession ever and we still had the foresight not to vote in socialists:D

That's what I love about Boards: intelligent contributions, cogent political analysis and thought-provoking debate.

Hasschu

We live in a world that has been turned upside down. Right wingers once upon a time believed in balanced budgets, low taxes, reduced social supports. Now they believe in budget deficits, still low taxes, increased social supports (vote buying). Mounting national debt in many countries is the result. Leaving a bare cupboard is also a widely practiced tactic and this is what FF did to FG, not only empty but heavily indebted. The usual rules do not apply in Ireland we only recently trotted out of the subsistence bog without the benefit of three or four centuries of industrialization. Our society is closer to the Lord and serf model which accounts for our deference to everybody in a position of authority. It also accounts for our support of tweedle dum and tweedle dee FF-FG peas in a pod. We lack the courage, intelligence, energy to contemplate any alternatives. Are we timid, fearful, anxiety prone do we cling to FF-FG as a blanky for adults.

evercloserunion

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Their history




Fianna Fail are no more right wing than the Peoples Democratic Republic of Korea is democratic

actions speak for themselves, if I told you that a party went on such a mad spending spree of similar scale without telling their name or country first thing one would think is "where is this socialist utopia?"

This is always thrown out there and I have to take issue with it.

First of all, do you think FF were only in power between 2000 and 2008? They have been in power for most of the history of the State. It is on that basis that they should be judged. The 2000-2008 period was characterised by a government making piss-poor decisions and then throwing money at any cracks that appeared. That is not left-wing government, that is just bad government.

Secondly, the idea that increased spending = left-wing and decreased spending = right-wing is a fallacy. A left-wing government would favour heavier and more sensible regulation. FF allowed the country to be run for the benefit of rich businessmen, to the detriment of society as a whole. They are a right-wing party.

Iwannahurl

evercloserunion wrote: »

This is always thrown out there and I have to take issue with it.

First of all, do you think FF were only in power between 2000 and 2008? They have been in power for most of the history of the State. It is on that basis that they should be judged. The 2000-2008 period was characterised by a government making piss-poor decisions and then throwing money at any cracks that appeared. That is not left-wing government, that is just bad government.

Secondly, the idea that increased spending = left-wing and decreased spending = right-wing is a fallacy. A left-wing government would favour heavier and more sensible regulation. FF allowed the country to be run for the benefit of rich businessmen, to the detriment of society as a whole. They are a right-wing party.

The Left/Right labels don't really bother me so much. If left-wing means a strong state regulating the economy for the greater good, and right-wing means allegedly "small government" and a tendency towards "light-touch regulation" then clearly FF were right-wing in recent decades.

FF have a great knack of being whatever wins them seats. They're probably different at every door they knock on.

Solair

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The Left/Right labels don't really bother me so much. If left-wing means a strong state regulating the economy for the greater good, and right-wing means allegedly "small government" and a tendency towards "light-touch regulation" then clearly FF were right-wing in recent decades.

FF have a great knack of being whatever wins them seats. They're probably different at every door they knock on.

In other words, they'll tell you what you want to hear and they're total spoofers!

ninty9er

There were and are Fianna Fáil members all over this country who were against Bertie's Populist Manifesto in 2007. Some of them former TDs at the time, and one former city mayor in particular I remember who is now dead (just as well because if he wasn't the election would have killed him) who spoke about how it wa awful to see Fianna Fáil buying the election, could we not just stick to providing for the most vulnerable like we used to.

I argued as far back as 2005 for price controls in the housing market through legislative caps on mortgage LTVs and was told it was ridiculous as it would leave some people in negative equity. I still fail to see the issue with negative equity. A home is a home and if you bought an investment property you should have been willing to accept the standard proviso that "the value of your investment may rise as well as fall"

We're not all stupid and we're not all into promising the world, mainly because most people aren't interested in what you promise, only what you deliver, and I didn't meet any people at doors in 2005 and 2006 that said that the dole was un-liveable or the pension was too low, yet the parliamentary party and the policy "gurus" (GUBUs more like) decided that people were thinking it anyway.

We were all willing to sell it as it was easy, but some of us knew better than others that it couldn't last, I just never saw it going THIS wrong.

There are subtle differences between FF and FG, but the whole pro v anti treaty crap is bull**** in 2011.

Civil War politics is dead in Ireland and has been for decades, people have voted for whoever gave them what they wanted or whoever got their pot hole fixed. Civil War politics would be a feckin improvement!

Liam Byrne

I actually agree with ninety9er above but the problem is that FF chose to bail out banks and skew supply-and-demand market forces via NAMA.

If they hadn't chosen that route and if EVERYONE was responsible for their own investments and choices, then we'd have no bitterness or "me too" claims.

Everyone would be responsible for their own choices, as is right and just.

As soon as you bail out those who are irresponsible (and worse, bail them out using the money if people who behaved responsibly) then you open a can of worms.

K-9

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I actually agree with ninety9er above but the problem is that FF chose to bail out banks and skew supply-and-demand market forces via NAMA.

If they hadn't chosen that route and if EVERYONE was responsible for their own investments and choices, then we'd have no bitterness or "me too" claims.

Everyone would be responsible for their own choices, as is right and just.

As soon as you bail out those who are irresponsible (and worse, bail them out using the money if people who behaved responsibly) then you open a can of worms.

I'd agree that I think people blame FF more for the response to the crisis, moreso than the crisis itself.

It seems that any solution they picked has been the wrong one and that is what people are annoyed about. NAMA could have worked if it was a bad bank only but they went the popular option of bringing good loans in to, thus increasing the work load and giving banks an incentive to delay the transfers, hence it isn't finished yet! The guarantee might have stood a chance until most of it ended up being paid out last September, thus freaking out an already frantic market. Instead of just winding down Anglo they tried to sell it to Europe as a viable business, not once, but twice! Other things too.

I'd have voted FF in the past and tbh I didn't see FG or Labour warning us about impending gloom either. Some point to Noonan in 02 but that misses the point, that was 02! I judged parties based on their performance since 07 and really, while it was hard to pick a winner, FF are still running in that race!

I suppose it seems generally in Europe there is a clear left/right, we don't really have that. Looking at the UK, that divide isn't anywhere near where it was in the 80's.

johnmcdnl

sure isn't FG the exact opposite of FF :rolleyes:

sure FF are Dev's crowd and FG are Collins men - you German bastards are gonna come here and tell me I'm wrong :mad:

Lawrence1895

johnmcdnl wrote: »

sure isn't FG the exact opposite of FF :rolleyes:

sure FF are Dev's crowd and FG are Collins men - you German bastards are gonna come here and tell me I'm wrong :mad:

For me there is not much of a difference between FF and FG, maybe it's only their core voters who think differently.

But this is my personal opinion and doesn't represent all 90 Million German bas*****

mike kelly

ninty9er wrote: »

I still fail to see the issue with negative equity.

it prevents you from trading up