totally lost with scrummaging laws and enforcement

Remmy

Ok so I was matching the Ireland,Scotland match and Im realising that there is so much going on beween the two pairs of front rows that Im oblivious to.

When Healy brought down the scrum the one or two times was that a lack of strength,lack of technique or the fault or the scottish front row not binding properly?i.e did him or Ross drop the scrum on purpose or was it a different reason?

Also is wheeling the scrum around illegal?What about popping the opposing front rows heads out of the scrum like this



Its a crappy pic but I think this was the boks,lions test where The South African front row kept popping up Phil vickery out of the scrum.

As you can see Im pretty lost.

itsallaboutheL

As anyone that has played in the front row will tell you everything is legal once you're not getting caught.

It really is an absolute minefield.

Re: Vickery, power came on and he popped.

Healy, kept missing his bind, tbh those CCC shirts are ridiculous, they'd need to come with handles.

Piliger

In my view there is too much power coming from behind the front row in the professional game.

GerM

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Re: Vickery, power came on and he popped.

Vickery was done by completely illegal scrummaging. Mtawarira turned in and drove upwards with his arm which popped Vickery upwards. Vickery should have done something, anything to counter it but it was shocking from the ref to not call it. The next test Adam Jones scrummed him into the ground because the ref forced him to scrum legally and in the final test Vickery more than held his own when properly officiated.

Eoin

What about popping the opposing front rows heads out of the scrum like this

It is illegal to scrummage in such a way as to pop the opposing front row up like that, yet in most cases, the front row who pops up will get penalised - even though he could be preventing serious injury by doing so. It's a horrible feeling having your chin pushed into your chest like that, so popping up is a completely natural reaction.

Also is wheeling the scrum around illegal?

When you whip it around, yes - but not if you scrummage properly so the scrum turns through 90 degrees.

Monty Burnz

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Healy, kept missing his bind, tbh those CCC shirts are ridiculous, they'd need to come with handles.

You may have just answered the IRB's prayers.

Remmy

Piliger wrote: »

In my view there is too much power coming from behind the front row in the professional game.

Doesnt the main pushing power of the scrum come from the second row though?The scottish second row was a bit heavier than POC an DOC but they were taller too so maybe the werent as efective as transfering the power to the front row?

Remmy

Also whats with Healy and the scottish tighthead bumping heads before they engage?Is that a psychological thing or more vying for the better position to push from?

Eoin

Bumping heads before the engage? Sounds like bad aim more than anything else.

GerM

Remmy wrote: »

Doesnt the main pushing power of the scrum come from the second row though?The scottish second row was a bit heavier than POC an DOC but they were taller too so maybe the werent as efective as transfering the power to the front row?

Power is massively negated if the prop can't scrummage. Prop will need to keep his back straight for that power to be transferred through the scrum. Requires great core strength to be a technically top prop these days. Look at someone like Domingo, short, squat fella with a short back and good technique. The power from Nallet and Pierre goes straight through.

B0X

Monty Burnz wrote: »

You may have just answered the IRB's prayers.

I wonder would that work, a raised strip down the jersey on each side or something.

chris85

Remmy wrote: »

Also whats with Healy and the scottish tighthead bumping heads before they engage?Is that a psychological thing or more vying for the better position to push from?

healy was trying to position to get his head under the chest of the scottish tighthead and then push his head into the chest of the tighthead to cause him some discomfort and thus unable to concentrate and scrummage as well so its more of a physical thing.

Very often done by hookers against the opposition hooker. I played hooker previously and this is done sometimes on your own scrum, causes the opposition hook discomforth with little issue to you and also the opposition hooker doesnt get a clear view of the ball being fed in so cant attempt to steal it.

Remmy

chris85 wrote: »

healy was trying to position to get his head under the chest of the scottish tighthead and then push his head into the chest of the tighthead to cause him some discomfort and thus unable to concentrate and scrummage as well so its more of a physical thing.

Very often done by hookers against the opposition hooker. I played hooker previously and this is done sometimes on your own scrum, causes the opposition hook discomforth with little issue to you and also the opposition hooker doesnt get a clear view of the ball being fed in so cant attempt to steal it.

thanks.I was wondering why he was doing that.

nice_guy80

They need to insist on the two props on a team wearing looser shirts to ensure the opposing props can bind properly.

Reduce the pause part of the engagement

Only restart the clock once the ball is thrown in

GerM

Referees need to continue working with top gurus to identify the illegalities of the scrum. Unfortunately, props tend to be 20 stone and halfway to a heart attack when they retire so the likelihood of them becoming referees is slim. Therefore we need to coach referees on what to look out for given they probably never got within a stone's throw of a front row if and when they played.

Also the touch judges need to be brought into play far more. The referee can only stand on one side. A loosehead can get away with murder if the ref is unsighted and vice versa with tightheads. The TJ should move closer within reason and advise the referee of any indiscretions taking place on his side of the scrum. No one pair of eyes can see all the crap that happens at a scrum.

KERSPLAT!

Remmy wrote: »

Also whats with Healy and the scottish tighthead bumping heads before they engage?Is that a psychological thing or more vying for the better position to push from?

Im sure the other lads are correct aswell but didnt Ryle Nugent say that they knew each other and it was just a bit of handbags?

Eoin

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Reduce the pause part of the engagement

A hundred times this!

IPAM wrote: »

Im sure the other lads are correct aswell but didnt Ryle Nugent say that they knew each other and it was just a bit of handbags?

Ryle often doesn't know what he's talking about, I wouldn't read too much into what he says.

BoarHunter

some interesting info from down under about refereing ;

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=10710441

GerM

BoarHunter wrote: »

some interesting info from down under about refereing ;

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=10710441

Thought Clancy had a grand game in London with one glaring mistake which Lievremont highlighted. Side of a ruck, Nick Easter, 6'4" and 18 stones flopping about on the ground and whilst there slaps out a hand and shovels the ball back on the English side. France were on the attack, making yards and were well into the English 22. As glaring a yellow card as there could be but he bottled it.

Webbs

The scrum these days with the ridiculous long pause engage etc is all about the hit. If a front row doesnt feel they have got it right, they will invariably drop the scrum almost immediately. The Irish scrum for example is struggling as Healys body position is all wrong to transfer the power as his back is not straight.

The flip side of this is I saw Castrogiovanni being mullered playing for Leicester on the weekend as his opposition prop had a great body position and just drove straight through him with all the power from his second rows behind him. Both guys propped pretty much legally and I would love to see more scrums like that where the better guy on the day had the upper hand.
But I think this came about because C'astro has belief in his scrummaging so tends to do things more legally than other props who arent so technically good (this isnt to say he doesnt use the dark arts if he can get away with it!!)

Morf

Webbs wrote: »

The scrum these days with the ridiculous long pause engage etc is all about the hit. If a front row doesnt feel they have got it right, they will invariably drop the scrum almost immediately. The Irish scrum for example is struggling as Healys body position is all wrong to transfer the power as his back is not straight.

The flip side of this is I saw Castrogiovanni being mullered playing for Leicester on the weekend as his opposition prop had a great body position and just drove straight through him with all the power from his second rows behind him. Both guys propped pretty much legally and I would love to see more scrums like that where the better guy on the day had the upper hand.
But I think this came about because C'astro has belief in his scrummaging so tends to do things more legally than other props who arent so technically good (this isnt to say he doesnt use the dark arts if he can get away with it!!)

Matt Stevens, wasn't it?

molloyjh

GerM wrote: »

Referees need to continue working with top gurus to identify the illegalities of the scrum. Unfortunately, props tend to be 20 stone and halfway to a heart attack when they retire so the likelihood of them becoming referees is slim. Therefore we need to coach referees on what to look out for given they probably never got within a stone's throw of a front row if and when they played.

Also the touch judges need to be brought into play far more. The referee can only stand on one side. A loosehead can get away with murder if the ref is unsighted and vice versa with tightheads. The TJ should move closer within reason and advise the referee of any indiscretions taking place on his side of the scrum. No one pair of eyes can see all the crap that happens at a scrum.

A few of us were only saying that recently. It's insane how little the TJ's actually do and this is surely an obvious addition to their role that helps the game a huge amount. It's a constant thing that the props on the far side of the scrum from the ref act the maggot as they are not being reffed at all.

Monty Burnz

BoarHunter wrote: »

some interesting info from down under about refereing ;

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=10710441

What a monumentally stupid article. The author seems to take it as read that the coaches whining after the games were correct. Therefore the NH referees are rubbish, therefore they shouldn't be involved in the World Cup. There isn't even any indication that the writer saw the games or the decisions in question.

Webbs

Morf wrote: »

Matt Stevens, wasn't it?

Yes thats right, I had forgotten he was back playing. Was an excellent scrummaging performance

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

A few of us were only saying that recently. It's insane how little the TJ's actually do and this is surely an obvious addition to their role that helps the game a huge amount. It's a constant thing that the props on the far side of the scrum from the ref act the maggot as they are not being reffed at all.

I can see difficulties arising whereby the TJ might ping one team and the ref penalises the other at the same time.
I agree though that the TJs should be more involved. They are referees after all.

molloyjh

Deleted User wrote: »

I can see difficulties arising whereby the TJ might ping one team and the ref penalises the other at the same time.
I agree though that the TJs should be more involved. They are referees after all.

It should still be up to the ref to ping them I think, but just with input from the TJ. I was at the Leinster-Treviso game there a few weeks back and at one stage there was a scrum over the far side of the pitch. The ref went to our tighthead side and their tighthead started boring in and the scrum collapsed. So the ref came around that side, reset the scrum and there was an issue then the far side (which I obviously couldn't see). Once he went back around and reset the scrum on that side the Treviso TH was at it again.

Now I could see that from where I was and the TJ was almost in line with me and a few feet in front of me. He def saw it. Rather than him coming in and ref-ing the scrum he should be advising the ref of the infringement and the ref should be awarding the penalty on that basis. There is no way for a ref to be able to see everything at scrum time so he should be able to make use of the extra eyes.

swan82

Remmy wrote: »

Ok so I was matching the Ireland,Scotland match and Im realising that there is so much going on beween the two pairs of front rows that Im oblivious to.

When Healy brought down the scrum the one or two times was that a lack of strength,lack of technique or the fault or the scottish front row not binding properly?i.e did him or Ross drop the scrum on purpose or was it a different reason?

Also is wheeling the scrum around illegal?What about popping the opposing front rows heads out of the scrum like this

The easiest thing for someone who doesnt understand the scrum to look for is the bind.The two props have to bind on each others back,because of the skintight jersey this often means the player cant get a bind and the scrum drops.

The other thing to look for is a player binding on the arm,this is sometimes done when the ref isnt looking because it gives a massive advantage to the player who is binding on the oppositions arm but sometimes it is done by a player who loses the bind on the back and simply does it to stop the scrum from collapsing,you see healy do this sometimes.
It will be preceded by his arm hitting the floor,he will then go for the arm just to hold the scrum up.

One of the main tricks you wil see and it explains the pic you put up is boring in,whereby the loosehead (healy) and hooker will turn in and put all their pressure on the opposition tighthead prop,forcing him up.

They do this because the tighthead is the fulcrum/cornerstone of the scrum,once he is destabalised the scrum is done.

Hence refs (owens) going mad the other day that the scottish scrummage straight,the last day.

Easiest thing to fix the scrum imo would be as someone said,allow a bit of extra fabric on the back area of the jersey,eliminate the slow engage and have the touchjudge officiate the side that the ref cannot see.

BoarHunter

Monty Burnz wrote: »

What a monumentally stupid article. The author seems to take it as read that the coaches whining after the games were correct. Therefore the NH referees are rubbish, therefore they shouldn't be involved in the World Cup. There isn't even any indication that the writer saw the games or the decisions in question.

Agree with you. Looks like the kiwi are lobbying in order to avoid having an accident like the one in their last quarter final. if they can be refereed by a southern ref all the way they will be happy.

Remmy

swan82 wrote: »

The easiest thing for someone who doesnt understand the scrum to look for is the bind.The two props have to bind on each others back,because of the skintight jersey this often means the player cant get a bind and the scrum drops.

The other thing to look for is a player binding on the arm,this is sometimes done when the ref isnt looking because it gives a massive advantage to the player who is binding on the oppositions arm but sometimes it is done by a player who loses the bind on the back and simply does it to stop the scrum from collapsing,you see healy do this sometimes.
It will be preceded by his arm hitting the floor,he will then go for the arm just to hold the scrum up.

One of the main tricks you wil see and it explains the pic you put up is boring in,whereby the loosehead (healy) and hooker will turn in and put all their pressure on the opposition tighthead prop,forcing him up.

They do this because the tighthead is the fulcrum/cornerstone of the scrum,once he is destabalised the scrum is done.

Hence refs (owens) going mad the other day that the scottish scrummage straight,the last day.

Easiest thing to fix the scrum imo would be as someone said,allow a bit of extra fabric on the back area of the jersey,eliminate the slow engage and have the touchjudge officiate the side that the ref cannot see.

Good reply, thanks for that!

brianthebard

Deleted User wrote: »

I can see difficulties arising whereby the TJ might ping one team and the ref penalises the other at the same time.
I agree though that the TJs should be more involved. They are referees after all.

If both sides were penalised at the same time the ref could just reset the scrum surely? Some refs aren't even making sure that the ball goes into the scrum straight, that must be the easiest thing to referee in the scrum, if they aren't getting that right then there seems no hope that they will get the more technical stuff right.

castie

brianthebard wrote: »

If both sides were penalised at the same time the ref could just reset the scrum surely? Some refs aren't even making sure that the ball goes into the scrum straight, that must be the easiest thing to referee in the scrum, if they aren't getting that right then there seems no hope that they will get the more technical stuff right.

With the amount of stuff going on at scrum time im not surprised the ref isnt watching the feed. If he does he cant see whats happening to the scrum.

karlitob

As a former prop, I do agree with the tenet that anything i legal if the ref doesn't see it and I think thats the fun of propping. The ongoing battle up front that only the 6 of ye know about.

As a referee, there are a few things that I feel are important.

i) Feed - your touch judge can help here. Put in straight. Simple as. If half-backs don't comply. Penalty, penalty penalty.

ii) Square in - no shoulders below arm pits. 6 shoulders square. If it changes from this - penalty penalty penalty.

iii) Bind - generally the loose heads keep up the scrum, the tight heads bring it down.

If the scrum goes down on one side - there is a few options options. Either the loose-head is not binding correctly and he cant keep the scrum up - the ref must decide if this is intentional or not. The higher up the back, the netter the bind. Or the tight head brings down the scrum - again is this intentional or not - screwing.
If the scrum lifts on one side, then its usually the tight head thats being lifted. Again a few things are happening here - either the loose head is legally scrummaging and the tight-head cant handle it. In response he stands up rather than take the hit and go back. Peno. Or the loose-head is illegally boring.

Once the ball is in, then it needs to come out quickly. So once the ball is in the bind of the props becomes less important. Then the ref can turn his attention to back row binding and back-line encroaching.

daveharnett

Remmy wrote: »

Ok so I was matching the Ireland,Scotland match and Im realising that there is so much going on beween the two pairs of front rows that Im oblivious to.

I'd recommend this thread by brian moore http://www.rugbyrefs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10362 (may require registration, but worth it). I know, he's not at the top of my Christmas card list either, but on this solitary subject he knows what he's talking about.

Tim Robbins

GerM wrote: »

Referees need to continue working with top gurus to identify the illegalities of the scrum.

+1.

Also the touch judges need to be brought into play far more. The referee can only stand on one side. A loosehead can get away with murder if the ref is unsighted and vice versa with tightheads. The TJ should move closer within reason and advise the referee of any indiscretions taking place on his side of the scrum. No one pair of eyes can see all the crap that happens at a scrum.

Refs would usually work with the TJ but in a discrete way. What you don't want is they two of them disagreeing with each other. Or slowing the game down because they keep having to communicate.