"Fine Gael has borrowed votes from Fianna Fáil". Do you agree?

Dionysus

Somebody said this on RTÉ this morning. Do you agree with it? The full sentence was: ""Fine Gael has borrowed votes from Fianna Fáil - and they'll want to keep them" and the speaker was referring to how Fine Gael will want to appeal to many of the issues which their new voters have concerns about simply to keep their vote. The argument made sense to me, even if some people can't see beyond the past year when they are thinking about Irish politics in a few years time.

So, is Fine Gael living on borrowed Fianna Fáil votes?

squod

Yes. It will obviously take a new party to field more candidates to overtake FG. FF and FG voters were voting for the same policies this time 'round.

W.Shakes-Beer

Politics forum

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Liam Byrne

Parties should be irrelevant.

Irish people should vote the best/most competent/most honest person for the job.

If we got rid of parties (or at the very least the party whip) altogether we might be better off.

Amhran Nua

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Parties should be irrelevant.

The opposite is true. When you have people voting for individuals you end up with TDs swapping votes for potholes being fixed. We can vote for individuals through the STV system, which almost no other country on earth uses, and where they do, they keep it only for local elections. Most of them have the party list system, which means if a party does well for the country, they get rewarded. Both systems are proportional representation by the way.

We need to stay away from the parish pump as much as possible for future national elections.

pragmatic1

No; Future elections will be between FG, Labour and others, primarily

Nope. They've strong-armed the votes and I cant see FF ever recovering to anywhere near what they were. No room for two centre right parties on this island.

strobe

No; FG has those votes now and FF is finished as a political force

Amhran Nua wrote: »

The opposite is true. When you have people voting for individuals you end up with TDs swapping votes for potholes being fixed. We can vote for individuals through the STV system, which almost no other country on earth uses, and where they do, they keep it only for local elections. Most of them have the party list system, which means if a party does well for the country, they get rewarded. Both systems are proportional representation by the way.

We need to stay away from the parish pump as much as possible for future national elections.

The problem is though, you have people who join FF/SF/Lab/FG etc and then end up being a Fianna Failer or a Sinn Feiner or a Fine Gealer and you have people that vote for them being Fine Gealers or Labourers, rather than people doing what is best for society and running or voting based on policies. Where there are parties it will always be party before country.

No political party in the country would withdraw from an election they were expected to win if they thought it was in the best interest of the country. Do we agree on that?

I agree with what you say about 'parish pump politics' but the answer to that isn't 'everything for the party politics'.

Capt'n Midnight

The big factor is that we are finally seeing the end of people who vote FF regardless. You don't have to imagine a world where FF voters actually think, we are living in it

Shep the dog will not get elected anymore. Their core voters are now rural pensioners, which doesn't bode well for the future.


They have also lost 160 councillers in the run up to this election and will loose most of their senators too. All of which means the party will get a lot less income.

The county cumans might survive, but looks like they are gone in the cities and commuter belts. (yer man from Carlow-Kilkenny got his support from the southern end)


All indications are that the majority of FF TD's elected are votes for them and not the party, transfers to other FF candidates being way lower than normal. It has to be asked how many of the votes for Lenihan were sympathy votes

Amhran Nua

strobe wrote: »

The problem is though, you have people who join FF/SF/Lab/FG etc and then end up being a Fianna Failer or a Sinn Feiner or a Fine Gealer and you have people that vote for them being Fine Gealers or Labourers, rather than people doing what is best for society and running or voting based on policies. Where there are parties it will always be party before country.

That's the beauty of the system - if the party doesn't do what's best for the country, it is removed by voters. It forces a national level focus for national elections, and stops making everything into a local popularity contest. Would Micheál Martin have gotten re-elected if people were voting for the party rather than him personally?

Not for nothing do the top four most democratic countries on earth use the party list system (source: Economist Intelligence Unit), and plenty of others too.

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Their core voters are now rural pensioners, which doesn't bode well for the future

Indeed, one memorable comment was that FF better hope the health system improves, or they'll have no voters at all in the next election!

K-9

I'd say FF will gain next time.

Left parties seem to be "reds under the beds" here.

Labour could go more right and gain votes but they wouldn't be a Labour party any more!

orourkeda

No; Future elections will be between FG, Labour and others, primarily

K-9 wrote: »

I'd say FF will gain next time.

Left parties seem to be "reds under the beds" here.

Labour could go more right and gain votes but they wouldn't be a Labour party any more!

FF either improve or die, Thats the harsh reality for them

chucken1

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Parties should be irrelevant.

Irish people should vote the best/most competent/most honest person for the job.

If we got rid of parties (or at the very least the party whip) altogether we might be better off.

I should know..but I dont. What a party whip?

biko

From AH

ei.sdraob

To bring some reality into this thread from a post in parallel thread

ei.sdraob wrote: »

to the left?

http://www.rte.ie/news/election2011/results/index.html

-24% FF who are center/left/allovershop pursued public expenditure + welfare increase policies well above rate of economic growth which would make the most ardent socialists blush
+8.8% gain for FG center right
+9.3% gain for Lab center left
+6.8% to independents from all over spectrum
+3% gain to SF, left
-3% loss Green, authoritarian center left
+1.6% socialists, people before profit far left

Labour
FG
Independents
SF

in that order have benefited from downfall of FF

the figures are all there, theres no need for speculation

irishh_bob

Dionysus wrote: »

Somebody said this on RTÉ this morning. Do you agree with it? The full sentence was: ""Fine Gael has borrowed votes from Fianna Fáil - and they'll want to keep them" and the speaker was referring to how Fine Gael will want to appeal to many of the issues which their new voters have concerns about simply to keep their vote. The argument made sense to me, even if some people can't see beyond the past year when they are thinking about Irish politics in a few years time.

So, is Fine Gael living on borrowed Fianna Fáil votes?

such was the broad appeal of fianna fail down the years , almost every party ( borrowed ) votes of them although they may not return them

labour borrowed the public sector vote
fine gael the middle ireland vote , the farmer vote , the business vote
sinn fein took loan of the republican vote and the wellfare class vote

caseyann

Where is the holy god if people vote ff back in the lifetime of any of the TDS that live today and served with B and B and B and M etc..... then they need signing up to mental homes.

PeterIanStaker

Does it matter really?

Our grandchildren are in hock to the IMF and we'll default in 6mths-2years time.