Help with serious discipline problems please

vamos!

I'm a secondary teacher and am covering leave since October. I have a few years experience in different schools. I cannot cope with some of my classes in my current school. I am doing very well with some classes but others are hopeless... things are so out of hand that students from other classes try to sneak in because my classes are great craic. The students dont bring books so I make handouts. Students tell me this is a waste of time and to stop f-in annoyin them. Students throw handouts around the place, draw on the tables, fight with each other, even throw chairs. This is a typical day!
I report everything, record it in journals and give detention. Obviously nobody shows up to detention. I have tried everything and am being very consistent but am getting nowhere. I really feel sick before these classes and am thinking about it over the midterm which is not a good sign! I have analysed my approach, behaviour, tone etc and it seems to be working with most of my classes, but just not with others.
Apologies for the long and negative post, but I really could do with any advice more experienced or effective teachers have to offe

byhookorbycrook

Other pupils sneak in for "the craic"??Do you allow this-if so first step, anyone who is not in your class should not attend your class. You need to seriously rethink the hand-out thing for the moment,much harder to throw a text book, esp if the student owns the text. Have you talked to the year head?If you give detention and the pupil doesn't show-and you don't follow through,then you are on an loser straight away.

vamos!

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Other pupils sneak in for "the craic"??Do you allow this-if so first step, anyone who is not in your class should not attend your class. You need to seriously rethink the hand-out thing for the moment,much harder to throw a text book, esp if the student owns the text. Have you talked to the year head?If you give detention and the pupil doesn't show-and you don't follow through,then you are on an loser straight away.

I obviously dont allow other students to come in but they try. I report everything in writing to the year head and she advises me to put students on detention. I have gone past the point of mortification that I have to write up on 8 or 10 students at the end of every class. The class groups involved are both exam groups in the same year. They are the only classes I have any problems with and are known for being tough but they don't appear to give other staff members as hard a time. The majority have no papers, listening books etc and havent a hope of passing the JC if I dont come up with a solution soon. I have picked out the few students doing HL and have had to resort to doing lunchtime and after school lessons with these kids. One has even asked if she can study in a different room during my classes because she has a headache with the noise o]f my classes.
I suppose what I am really asking is if anyone has been in a similar situation and what strategies they used? I have literally tried everything I can think of but the students arent reacting at all. They would probably behave better if I were to leave the room!

bmarley

Does the school have policies in place on dealing with inappropriate behaviour and steps that should be followed. I don't think it is your job alone to deal with problems on this scale. Have you discussed the problem with colleagues and principal? If detention is not working, time to talk to parents I would have thought.

newmug

Instead of teaching the few good ones after class, why dont you throw out the bad ones during class? If they're not interested in learning for themselves, thats their tough. You've tried. But if they're preventing others from learning, you have a duty to enable their education.

In short, zero tolerence. At the first sign of undisciplined behaviour, OUT! Even if it means you are only left with one student.

rainbowtrout

newmug wrote: »

Instead of teaching the few good ones after class, why dont you throw out the bad ones during class? If they're not interested in learning for themselves, thats their tough. You've tried. But if they're preventing others from learning, you have a duty to enable their education.

In short, zero tolerence. At the first sign of undisciplined behaviour, OUT! Even if it means you are only left with one student.

You can't throw students out of a class, you have a duty of care to them.

However I do agree with other posters, if it has gotten that bad, something more has to be done by principal/year head. On a class level students that don't belong in your class shouldn't even be attempting to enter the class. If it means that you have to stand at the door and check every student coming in, well so be it for the moment. I would ask what the school discipline is like in general if they try to come into your class, your class time is wasted giving out to them and kicking them out and then they go to their proper class late.

E.T.

If they don't turn up for detention, who deals with that? Why is the year-head/principal not doing anything about this?

vamos!

In actually stand at the door at the beginning of every class and greet the students (language teacher). School discipline is quite good. The school is way more relaxed than anywhere else I have worked with regards to uniform and books, but are doing an excellent job considering the very high number of challenging students. Most of this is down to the Year Heads who do an amazing job and are really supportive. I am between a rock and a hard place with the difficult groups though, as their Year Head doesnt really seem to be very effective. She is fantastic at dealing with emotional issues and is really positive but the students can do what they like. Her only advice is to put them on detention and give punishment work. I feel obliged to do this but it makes me look weak as there are no consequences for the students refusing to do it. Students swear at me on a daily basis and nothing is done about it. Only Year Heads may ring the parents. A students had a go at me when the Year Head was absent and ended up being suspended after I had to report to the Deputy Principal. I cant go over the Year Head when she is in though.
With regards to strategies I have tried to list the work we have to get done at start of class and say no homework if it is done by the end. This usually works with other classes but these groups laugh and say I must be mad to think that they would consider doing homework or classwork.... Ditto for films, music, games and powerpoint presentations. Im too nervous too even consider bringing them to the conputer room.
I really am finding this tough as I have obviously been really lucky to date and havent met groups like these before. Im no longer an NQT who has a lot to learn.... I really hope Im not getting a bad reputation for myself by being unable to cope. Im considering applying for a maternity leave elsewhere.

implausible

vamos! wrote: »

I cannot cope with some of my classes in my current school. I am doing very well with some classes but others are hopeless... things are so out of hand that students from other classes try to sneak in because my classes are great craic. The students dont bring books so I make handouts. Students tell me this is a waste of time and to stop f-in annoyin them. Students throw handouts around the place, draw on the tables, fight with each other, even throw chairs. This is a typical day!
I report everything, record it in journals and give detention. Obviously nobody shows up to detention. I have tried everything and am being very consistent but am getting nowhere.

A few things off the top of my head:

1. Have you a seating plan for them? If not, it could be an idea.
2. It is easier for them to act up if you are standing up at the top of the class shouting at them. If you are moving around the room or at the back, this often helps. Even standing beside the desk of a misbehaving student can be surprisingly effective.
3. They're not bringing books because they know you'll bring the handouts and they'll get away with doing nothing. Can you get into the room beforehand and have the material written up/displayed on the board when they come in. This saves time and gives the message that there is work to be done.
4. The other students who are trying to get into the class should be in another classroom. Inform the other teacher.
5. What is the policy re: detention? There must be a sanction for not turning up. What I found worked with some brutal classes I had was waiting until I had them before break/lunch and keeping them then. Even 5 mins was effective and I've only ever had to do it a handful of times.

Where is the yearhead in all of this?!

I really sympathise. This sounds all too familiar, I've experienced the same in my school and some of our classes behave in the way you describe.

timewilltell

Pardon the phrase, but you need to adopt b**ch mode!

I had this problem when I was subbing, the class reduced me to tears when I started. I would never consider myself meek by any means but janey, I was a quivering wreck.
So...

I walked in the next day with a face like stone. Any talking was recorded, and I kept them in for their break time when one of them had the nerve to throw a paper plane at me. It was really tough and I'd never reccommend it usually, but I think it should be considered...

After a few days they had mellowed considerably, and I introduced fun things like 5 min breaks where we played memory games and that.

Also, that first day of mean me, I took the desks out of the room..... many students find it more difficult to act out without a table..strange but true!

looksee

Are you perhaps trying to be a friend to the class? I agree with the last poster, its time to get 'tough'. Try and keep a dead-pan face, don't look anxious, even if you are. Don't try and be nice to them.

Check them in at the door if necessary, but don't do the individual greeting, greet them as a group then get on with the class.

Try and act as though there is no possibility that they could act up. Have something hard that you can rap on the desk to get attention (the board cleaner is good ) but don't do it in a pleading way, just rap and stare at the worst offenders - the others will usually shut up as they watch to see what is happening.

If they persist, walk up the class and stand beside them. Ask them a question or to read out loud. Don't engage in non-subject discussion with them.

Don't ask them to sit down, or whatever, tell them. In a rather unconcerned way so you are not giving them the attention they are looking for. Don't watch them anxiously to see if they are doing it, you have to develop something that my daughter calls 'eyeing them' which I think is something you develop as a parent kind of half-attention which does not even consider the possibility that you will not be obeyed.

The main thing though is to appear to be cool, calm, distant, and totally confident that you are in charge.

Finally, if there is no sanction for not turning up at detention, don't give it. It is something that you should pursue with the school authorities, but you are showing weakness if you impose detention and they go on their way laughing that they will not have to do it.

Its not easy, and I am lucky that I mostly teach older classes that are not really an issue to control, but even then I go in at the start showing that I am in charge - you do not have to be aggressive, but you need to show that you have total confidence that you are running the class.

siulach

First thing to say is that you are obviously a good teacher.you're giving up your own time for the interested students in the troublesome class,you've tried every approach you can to bring on the others, so I think you are doing everything in your power as one teacher to sort the situation. However, no man is an island, and it is not a sign of weakness to ask for help. It is a great start that you have documented everything, keep that up, every piece of evidence helps. Here's where I think you should go with this:
1. Try the yearhead one last time. Spell out what you have already said here. This is not a sign of weakness. It is the yearhead's job to deal with indiscipline, he/she is getting paid extra to do so. It is the yearhead/ deputy principal/ principal's job to ensure that students turn up for the detention - they should be supporting you. The yearhead's suggestion that you give detention is only effective if the detention is implemented, and it is his/her job to help you with this implementation. If the yearhead keeps failing you, try the deputy principal, principal, or another senior teacher.

2. Find another teacher in the staffroom that you trust who also teaches the class. I guarantee that this class has to have given or at least tried to give trouble to somebody else in the past. See what advice you can get from someone else who deals with this class every day. The detention route isn't working, maybe something else will.

3. Just to reiterate what others have said. Tomorrow, the first day of a new term, is an ideal day to set a seating plan in action. Again, see if any other teachers operate a seating plan for this class - you can then say to the class that you wish to put them in the same places as they are in Maths/German etc, and go ahead and do it. Any arguments, borrow my line 'you either sit in that seat, or else you walk through that door, go to the straight to the vice principal's office and explain to her why you won't obey a reasonable instruction from your teacher'. - (run this by the VP/yearhead first though)

4. A few more tips - try to dictate notes, it's easier to monitor a class if they're writing. Find a longish q, maybe a letter or something from the exampapers and dictate a sample answer. Put any hard words on an OHP or on powerpoint, avoid turning to the blackboard, stay facing them the whole time, walk around the room as you dictate. Before you begin, get as many of them as possible to have a sheet of paper or copy in front of them. Have spare sheets for the boldies, then they have no excuse. If they refuse to write, again, its a strike against them for you to document and bring to a higher authority after the class. The students who are already on your side will write away, the others will be easier to target, if they're not writing, they're not working, another piece of evidence for your file. I know it's not exactly teaching for understanding, but it's you or them!

Hope this helps, the best of luck to you. And remember, the fact that you're succeeding with other classes means the problem is with this gang and not with you.End of the day, they refuse to co-operate, it's their loss, but make it clear to the powers that be that a minority is disturbing the majority's right to learn. The school authority needs to help you deal with this.

Fuinseog

vamos! wrote: »

I'm a secondary teacher and am covering leave since October. I have a few years experience in different schools. I cannot cope with some of my classes in my current school. I am doing very well with some classes but others are hopeless... things are so out of hand that students from other classes try to sneak in because my classes are great craic. The students dont bring books so I make handouts. Students tell me this is a waste of time and to stop f-in annoyin them. Students throw handouts around the place, draw on the tables, fight with each other, even throw chairs. This is a typical day!
I report everything, record it in journals and give detention. Obviously nobody shows up to detention. I have tried everything and am being very consistent but am getting nowhere. I really feel sick before these classes and am thinking about it over the midterm which is not a good sign! I have analysed my approach, behaviour, tone etc and it seems to be working with most of my classes, but just not with others.
Apologies for the long and negative post, but I really could do with any advice more experienced or effective teachers have to offe

management should be helping you, but on the other hand you are a sub and subs very often get treated rather shoddily. older staff members may be willing to help or be indifferent.

Fuinseog

newmug wrote: »

Instead of teaching the few good ones after class, why dont you throw out the bad ones during class? If they're not interested in learning for themselves, thats their tough. You've tried. But if they're preventing others from learning, you have a duty to enable their education.

In short, zero tolerence. At the first sign of undisciplined behaviour, OUT! Even if it means you are only left with one student.

you can not throw a pupil out of class. anything could happen to the poor dear.

vamos!

Thanks for all of the advice. I have actually tried most of what you suggest but to no avail. I took a bad class today as an excuse to call one of the Deputy Heads in. This was a (hopefully!) subtle way of bypassing the Year Head and now the DP is involved. She also seemed OK about the fact that I need her help and is very surprised that I havent had to involve management yet... It really was nice to hear that this Year Group are difficult for everybody. I dont expect miracles but at least I now have backup and reasonable expectations. Thanks again..its nice to know Im not the only one with challenging groups!:):)