Finding details about the new Missal

downin

Hi,

I am not overly religous. My wife is more so. I attend mass every Sunday mostly because I agree with the general "good intentions" and we have always had excellent priests who give interesting sermons. I also like the social aspect. I am not into dogma/prayers.

I have been hearing about the new Missal. The letters in the Irish Times raised my eyebrows and I mentioned it to my wife. I am not particularly concerned with reverting to a more archaic language, but there seems to be some changes I am not keen on. My wife is starting to feel quite strongly about some of them.

She spoke to her parents about it as they are on a different parish council and they said there is consternation about some of it.

She spoke to one of our priests and he said there might be some changes that would be hard to swallow but that she should read the new Missal booklet available in Veritas before coming back to him.

I just bought it and I can't find any of the controversial material in it.

So, is the controversial material just being fabricated by those with vested interests or has it be hidden in the booklet?

Things she is primarily concerned about:

- having to say she "dares" to say the Our Father
- Gender changes back to male (there is a paragraph in the booklet on this but no specifics

Can anybody provide any information on these, or any other similar "controversial" changes? She also thinks reverting to archaic language is a completely unnecessary move but I can convince her to get over that.

She is surprising me with her reaction. She is thinking of saying to the priest that she will still attend mass but refuse to say certain sections of it. Yesterday I told her that Martin said the Church had 5 years until it was a minority and her response was "good!". I never thought she would say anything like this.

I would like her to be able to have the full facts/changes laid before her so she can make up her mind on this instead of relying on heresay, or on a booklet that seems to be hiding certain changes (possibly?)

Thanks.

Donatello

Visit here for full details, or downlaod the convenient PDF document I've attached to this post.

The new missal is a great improvement and once you see what you've been deprived of you will appreciate the riches that will become available.

The fellas (ACP) that are stoking dissent don't like the new translation cos it's too Catholic for them. They also prefer to treat the laity like they are children and force feed them a nauseatingly simple, baby translation. Their opposition is idealogical. They are not Catholic. These same fellas are campaigning for women priests and gay sex as well.

The so-called 'gender changes' are not changes at all since the same wording is used in the current translation, but a lot of priests, perhaps most, edit them out.

In short, I think we all need to embrace the new translation with docility and humility to the Holy Spirit.

downin

Thanks for that. It was helpful.

Donatello

The new translation also includes the other prayers of the Mass which are not included in the Order of Mass. Check out this example from Fr. Z's blog:

AWKWARD SLAVISHLY LITERAL WDTPRS RENDERING:
Grant us, we beg, O Lord,
both that the course of the world be set by your peace producing plan for us
and that your Church may be made joyful by means of tranquil devotion.

LAME-DUCK ICEL (1973 translation of the 1970MR):
Lord,
guide the course of world events
and give your Church the joy and peace
of serving you in freedom.

CORRECTED ICEL TRANSLATION:
Grant us, O Lord, we pray,
that the course of our world
may be directed by your peaceful rule
and that your Church may rejoice,
untroubled in her devotion.

Or this:

COLLECT (2002MR):
Praesta, quaesumus, omnipotens Deus,
ut, semper rationabilia meditantes,
quae tibi sunt placita, et dictis exsequamur et factis.

SLAVISHLY LITERAL VERSION (VERY faithful to the Latin):
Grant, we beg, Almighty God,
that we, meditating always on rational things,
may fulfill those things which are pleasing to You
by both words and deeds.

LAME-DUCK ICEL (1973 translation of the 1970MR):
Father,
keep before us the wisdom and love
you have revealed in your Son.
Help us to be like him
in word and deed.

Quite simply dreadful. Good riddance.

CORRECTED ICEL TRANSLATION:
Grant, we pray, almighty God,
that, always pondering spiritual things,
we may carry out in both word and deed
that which is pleasing to you.

Or this:

COLLECT – LATIN TEXT (2002MR):
Familiam tuam, quaesumus, Domine,
continua pietate custodi,
ut, quae in sola spe gratiae caelestis innititur,
tua semper protectione muniatur.

ICEL (1973 translation of the 1970MR):
Father,
watch over your family
and keep us safe in your care,
for all our hope is in you.

They went to the zoo in the second part of this Collect, didn’t they?

WDTPRS SLAVISH OFFERING:
Guard your family, we beseech you, O Lord,
with continual mercy,
so that that (family) which is propping itself up upon the sole hope of heavenly grace
may always be defended by your protection.

NEW, CORRECTED ICEL VERSION:
Keep your family safe, O Lord, with unfailing care,
that, relying solely on the hope of heavenly grace,
they may be defended always by your protection.

Better than the lame-duck version?

What the translators did the first time round (to their shame) was give a very rough 'approximation' of what the prayers said (or what they thought/wanted them to say) using a method of translation called 'dynamic equivalence'. You see, the Mass was promulgated by Pope Paul VI in Latin. Vernacular versions were then produced. The English version was, quite simply, dreadful. But the new uses a much more faithful, more accurate, corrected translation, faithful to the meaning of the Latin original, and avoiding the liberal glosses that were imposed on the text the first time round.

The current translation is childish and banal. The new is exalted, reverent, and full of meaning and spiritual depth.

downin

I have no issue with making the language more accurate.

I guess one example is when the priests says we have to "dare" to say the Our Father.

My wife does not want to feel she has to "dare" to say a prayer. She can understand that it might be a more accurate translation, but feels that it will alienate people... and if you want to alienate people when people are leaving anyway then it will be very effective. Under those circumstances, and considering that alot of translation is subjective anyway, why didn't they chose to just not use the word "dare". We haven't been struck down for leaving it out for the last 35 years. The only conclusion is that they specifically wanted to use it.

The same goes for :

through my fault,
through my fault,
through my most grievous fault;

it just seems like an unncessary change to make... it is forcing the speaker to feel worse about themselves than before.

Manach

Thanks for PDF, though I'll need to check later in site for a kindle compatible version.

prinz

downin wrote: »

My wife does not want to feel she has to "dare" to say a prayer..

I agree with your wife. Of all the things they copuld have been focusing their efforts on as of late. Some changes seem alright, the ones mentioned above are ludicrous and a step backwards IMO.

Ghost Buster

If all these changes are stepping back into the origins of the mass surely it is correct. If thats how god intended it then thats how he intended it.
If you dont like it then perhaps Catholicism or indeed organised religion is not for you?
If you cant stand the heat.........

downin

I am completely open to comment on this so if there is an interpretation of "dare", and the other example above, that I am not aware of can somebody explain it to me. I thought the document I bought would explain it but it didn't.

downin

But the original writing was made by mortal men, not God. It's all subjective in my eyes, so why not use language that is non confrontational at a time when they need to not alienate people.

I have absolutely no problem no attending mass, I have outlined my reasons for attending above. But little changes like that are causing people like my wife to seriously consider not attending.

prinz

Ghost Buster wrote: »

If all these changes are stepping back into the origins of the mass surely it is correct. If thats how god intended it then thats how he intended it. .........

Unfortunately somebody lost the original recording. Was on vinyl IIRC.

Ghost Buster wrote: »

If you dont like it then perhaps Catholicism or indeed organised religion is not for you?If you cant stand the heat.........

Given up on the food safety quest?

Ghost Buster

downin wrote: »

But the original writing was made by mortal men, not God. It's all subjective in my eyes, so why not use language that is non confrontational at a time when they need to not alienate people.

I have absolutely no problem no attending mass, I have outlined my reasons for attending above. But little changes like that are causing people like my wife to seriously consider not attending.

Men guided by the holy spirit if Im not mistaken. (Im an atheist BTW but was brought up catholic)
It seems to me that the word of God , rather than being that set down by an omnipotent being is more like the word of a being which must follow liberal agenda, fashion, modern sensibility and be sugar coated and changed as the whim takes.
Man up to your religion people and stop being so wishy washy!
Irish catholicism really is more of a habit/ culture than a religion... sheesh..

georgieporgy

downin wrote: »

I am completely open to comment on this so if there is an interpretation of "dare", and the other example above, that I am not aware of can somebody explain it to me. I thought the document I bought would explain it but it didn't.

Because we (through baptism) are children of God we have the audacity (we dare) to ask him confidently for anything. Like a little baby asking a parent.

In anyevent the phrase "we dare" is uttered by the priest and not the congregation

georgieporgy

downin wrote: »

But the original writing was made by mortal men, not God. It's all subjective in my eyes, so why not use language that is non confrontational at a time when they need to not alienate people.

I have absolutely no problem no attending mass, I have outlined my reasons for attending above. But little changes like that are causing people like my wife to seriously consider not attending.

Nothing is being changed. The "new" version of the Mass , Novus Ordo, adopted after vatican2 was in Latin and then translated into all the other languages. The other language translations (spanish, french german etc) had no problem getting an accurate translation. But the english version left a lot lacking. So that poor effort is now being corrected. The Latin text remains the same.

I was a teenager when they brought out the first version, compared to old translations which everyone was familiar with at the time, the new offering was Yuck! and banal. However I didn't let it stop me going to Mass and have been waiting patiently for things to be corrected in the fullness of time.

georgieporgy

prinz wrote: »

I agree with your wife. Of all the things they copuld have been focusing their efforts on as of late. Some changes seem alright, the ones mentioned above are ludicrous and a step backwards IMO.

What's wrong with translating mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa into through my fault, through my fault, through my most grevious fault?

Donatello

georgieporgy wrote: »

What's wrong with translating mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa into through my fault, through my fault, through my most grevious fault?

Exactly.

Ghostbuster gets it.

In any case, this all goes to prove the effect of 40 years of baby translation - we aren't fit for the meat! Our little Catholic minds have been fed baby formula prayers. Now when we get given the meat we go 'Yuck!'

I'm sure we'll get over it.

The current translation is so dreadful. We are all affected by its dreadfulness, the practical consequences of which are a lack of the reality of sin, the lack of the knowledge of our own sinfulness and unworthiness, and the reality of the awesomeness and otherness of God. 40 years of baby food fed our 'Buddy Jesus' illusions and means we are theologically illiterate and lacking in understanding of the faith. But fear not, there has never been a better time to learn the faith and begin to live it. I only found out what Eucharistic Adoration was in 2005 - that after more than 20 years of 'Catholic education'. What a joke that was!

We've a lot of stuff to get over. Ourselves would be a good start. If people are walking away from our blessed Lord in the Eucharist over the word 'dare' or 'through my fault...' then I would wonder was their heart really with Him in the first place?

The Catholics need to be fed some doctrine and this translation is a vital, vital part of the renewal. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. We need to be fed. We have become quite anaemic on the current translation.

I have to say (and I can say this, being one myself) that the Irish people have to be among the top most annoying peoples of the world. We are wonderful at griping and whingeing about things.

The new translation is coming, and I suggest any problems of reception will rest with us, the people, and not the quality or nature of the translation itself.

What we've been doing these last 40-50 years hasn't been working. Really, it hasn't. Sex abuse from perverted priests, ignorant, uncatechised people living as pagans do, empty Churches. Something ain't right. We are currently trying to recover from the Modernist crisis in the Church. Let us embrace the new translation - one small step in the right direction.

Donatello

prinz wrote: »

I agree with your wife. Of all the things they copuld have been focusing their efforts on as of late. Some changes seem alright, the ones mentioned above are ludicrous and a step backwards IMO.

The Mass is what matters. Those who say the translation is a side issue miss the point. The Mass is everything to the Catholic and the words we use at Mass matter a great deal.

And sometimes, we have to take a step back, because if we carry on as we are going, we go over the precipice.

This new translation is a step in the right direction - towards a faithful and sacred translation of the Latin text of the Roman Missal.

downin

Hey I'm beyond being brought back into the Church.

If the Church wants people to come back to it, or stay with it, then I suggest it takes some account of how it is view by those under 40 (my wife). If she goes then our two children are likely to go aswell. When I look around the Church on Sunday we are the only ones with colour left in our hair.

Purists might get annoyed by this, but it's reality. Ignore it and you will have barely anything left. Work with it and you might retain something.

I suggest the instead of the congregation having to work to adapt to archaic language and practices, that the Church work to adapt itself to the potential congregation.

Donatello

downin wrote: »

Hey I'm beyond being brought back into the Church.

If the Church wants people to come back to it, or stay with it, then I suggest it takes some account of how it is view by those under 40 (my wife). If she goes then our two children are likely to go aswell. When I look around the Church on Sunday we are the only ones with colour left in our hair.

Purists might get annoyed by this, but it's reality. Ignore it and you will have barely anything left. Work with it and you might retain something.

I suggest the instead of the congregation having to work to adapt to archaic language and practices, that the Church work to adapt itself to the potential congregation.

What would you recommend to bring in young people?

I think a good approach is used by the CFR friars in Limerick and Derry. They go out to the young in the impoverished areas. Rather than try to attract them to Mass, I think we need to go out to the young and evangelise them - offer them the Gospel, primarily by the witness of joy in our lives. Mass comes later.

I see the grey hair every Sunday myself. I am one of only a very few single young men at Mass in my parish. it is very sad. The sacristan in our parish treats me badly too. I think he can't stand my faithfulness. Or something.

Some priests think to get the young people they have to act trendy, but it sucks. They think they have to bring in folksy music and drums. But that sucks too. What the young need and want is the Catholic faith in its fullness. They need an experience of Mass which is sacred and reverent and awe-inspiring. That simply doesn't happen in most places. It's funny that the young like chant and it features in their computer games, but we don't use chant in our worship. Why not?

Anyhow, the Church has conformed itself so much to the world over the last 40 years that it has become irrelevant - that is why the young stay away.

The Church needs to offer people the Gospel. Except for the valid sacraments which are on offer, the priests and bishops have, for the most part, failed to preach the Gospel. Thus people come to Mass and are not challenged nor enthused to practise the faith. They find the whole thing largely irrelevant. In my parish for example, the preaching is on being 'nice' and feel-good crap. But no preaching Christ. If you want to know what a priest on fire for love of God might look like, check out Fr. Barron - he has podcasts, sermons, and stuff:

http://www.wordonfire.org/

The problem with Catholicism is not that it doesn't work, but that it hasn't been tried.

downin

I have not given much thought to what the Church needs to do. I wouldn't hold out much hope for it.

My gut feeling is that it can do nothing, that things go in cycles and that perhaps after a long period of time people will realise they need something spiritual in their lives and what it offers at that point might be suitable.

My own belief is that the message is important and not the dogma and it is entirely reasonable to change the language and practices without harming that message.

But I do not know enough to argue it to any greater degree.

prinz

Donatello wrote: »

And sometimes, we have to take a step back, because if we carry on as we are going, we go over the precipice..

Sorry but I don't agree with this at all. The Church, the community and the faith should be something we want to be part of, not something we are afraid of. I will never fee like I must dare to say the Lord's Prayer. What a ridiculous notion. Jesus didn't tell little kids to stay away from him, remember when the disciples took issue at children being brought to Jesus? They approached with confidence which some of the disciples tried to shake, but Jesus refuted that and bid them welcome. We should approach the Our Father with the same confidence and love. I don't 'dare' to approach or chat with my own father, why must I "dare" to speak the words Jesus told us to speak? We are frequently encouraged to have a personal relationship with God/Jesus, it doesn't sound like a very personal relationship if one is afraid to speak.

Donatello

prinz wrote: »

Sorry but I don't agree with this at all. The Church, the community and the faith should be something we want to be part of, not something we are afraid of. I will never fee like I must dare to say the Lord's Prayer. What a ridiculous notion. Jesus didn't tell little kids to stay away from him, remember when the disciples took issue at children being brought to Jesus? They approached with confidence which some of the disciples tried to shake, but Jesus refuted that and bid them welcome. We should approach the Our Father with the same confidence and love. I don't 'dare' to approach or chat with my own father, why must I "dare" to speak the words Jesus told us to speak? We are frequently encouraged to have a personal relationship with God/Jesus, it doesn't sound like a very personal relationship if one is afraid to speak.

I think it is just to reflect the awesomeness of this God allowing us mere little mortals to call Him Our Father. I think it might do us good to maybe try and make us a little more humble. Many Catholics are proud as punch and hold God in a certain contempt, so it might just help with that. Familiarity breeds contempt, and after many years of 'Buddy Jesus', most Catholics lack the basic respect and reverence for God - take a look at how most people behave in the Church and even during Mass - laughing, chatting, chewing gum, immodest dress etc...

Donatello

(CWN) Praising the forthcoming revised translation of the Roman Missal, an Australian bishop has offered a strong critique of the translation in use for the last four decades.

The current translation, said Auxiliary Bishop Peter Elliott of Melbourne, “is not good enough because it is not particularly good – and ‘good enough’ is not the way to describe the language we should use in the worship of God. The time has come to change because what we are using is not only often inaccurate as a translation, but the style of English is rather dull, banal, lacking in the dignity of language for worship, more like the language of a homily than a prayer.”

“A paraphrase can fail to give us, not only what the Latin original means, which is bordering on telling lies, but paraphrase often eliminates poetic beauty in the original, particularly scriptural language that runs through the prayers of the Roman Rite of Mass,” he added. “Questions of doctrinal content also emerge here – and this is a serious matter because it raises the ethical question of telling lies and distorting Catholic truth. When we examine the specific content of the ICEL collects we currently use we find a more serious result of ruthless paraphrase and précis - the virtual elimination of a key Christian word, ‘grace.’”

“Striking examples of inaccuracy are evident if Latin references to Our Lady in the Missale Romanum are checked against the current ICEL texts,” he added. “Here, we find an amazing failure to comprehend a basic principle of Christology and Mariology … ‘Dynamic equivalence’ becomes more destructive when Marian phrases which convey doctrinal truths taught by the Church are simply removed.”

Source(s): these links will take you to other sites, in a new window.

Hear the difference: new Missal translation will be like rediscovering buried treasure (The Record)

Donatello

A weakening of faith in God, a rise in selfishness and a drop in the number of people going to Mass can be traced to liturgical abuse or Masses that are not reverent, two Vatican cardinals and a consultant have said.

US Cardinal Raymond Burke, head of the Vatican’s supreme court, said: “If we err by thinking we are the centre of the liturgy, the Mass will lead to a loss of faith.”

Cardinal Burke and Spanish Cardinal Antonio Cañizares Llovera, prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments, spoke yesterday at a book launch in Rome.

The book, published only in Italian, was written by Fr Nicola Bux, who serves as a consultant to the congregations for the doctrine of the faith and for saints’ causes and to the office in charge of papal liturgies.

The English translation of Fr Bux’s book title would be, How to Go to Mass and Not Lose Your Faith.

Cardinal Burke told those gathered for the book presentation that he agreed with Fr Bux that “liturgical abuses lead to serious damage to the faith of Catholics”.

Unfortunately, he said, too many priests and bishops treat violations of liturgical norms as something that is unimportant when, in fact, they are “serious abuses”.

FULL ARTICLE: http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2011/03/03/cardinal-bad-masses-weaken-the-faith/

Donatello

My little prediction is that the new translation of the Confitior won't be said. It is rarely said as it is, and with the new translation faithful to the Latin, and the mea culpa, I can't see it being used in most liberal parishes.

Meanwhile...

This is interesting: “What if we said, ‘wait’?” Vatican won’t

Propellerhead

Donatello wrote: »

I think it is just to reflect the awesomeness of this God allowing us mere little mortals to call Him Our Father. I think it might do us good to maybe try and make us a little more humble. Many Catholics are proud as punch and hold God in a certain contempt, so it might just help with that. Familiarity breeds contempt, and after many years of 'Buddy Jesus', most Catholics lack the basic respect and reverence for God - take a look at how most people behave in the Church and even during Mass - laughing, chatting, chewing gum, immodest dress etc...

I think you will find that it wasn't the 1970 ICEL translation of the Roman Missal that was the cause of the collapse of the Roman Catholic Church's authority in Ireland.

Donatello

Propellerhead wrote: »

I think you will find that it wasn't the 1970 ICEL translation of the Roman Missal that was the cause of the collapse of the Roman Catholic Church's authority in Ireland.

My post you quoted wasn't about Church authority.

Donatello

This is quite hilarious.

Take a look at the Latin text of the post-Communion prayer for the 3rd Sunday of Lent in the Ordinary Form of Holy Mass.

LATIN (2002 Missale Romanum):
Sumentes pignus caelestis arcani,
et in terra positi iam superno pane satiati,
te, Domine, supplices deprecamur,
ut, quod in nobis mysterio geritur, opere impleatur.

Now look at a slavishly literal translation:

WDTPRS SLAVISHLY LITERAL RENDERING:
Taking/eating the down payment of the sacred heavenly mystery,
and, placed on earth having been filled already with bread from on high,
we, kneeling in entreaty, beseech you, O Lord,
that, what is being accomplished in us by the sacramental mystery, may be brought to fulfillment by work.

And let's take a look at the new, corrected ICEL translation, to be introduced in Advent 2011:

NEW CORRECTED ICEL VERSION:
As we receive the pledge
of things yet hidden in heaven
and are nourished while still on earth
with the Bread that comes from on high,
we humbly entreat you, O Lord,
that what is being brought about in us in mystery
may come to true completion.

But what have we been using for the last almost 40 years?

LAME-DUCK ICEL STILL IN USE:
Lord,
in sharing this sacrament
may we receive your forgiveness
and be brought together in unity and peace.

Festus

I wonder if the Satanists have the same problem?

Are they all happy with the clappy venereal translation or do they crave the traditional latin?

The Mass was perfectly fine in its traditional latin form for the best part of 2000 years and now that the latin is at last getting
a - a proper translation and
b - directives from the Pope that if you want it you can have it
what more could you want?

apart from an excorcist in every dioceses

Donatello

Festus wrote: »

I wonder if the Satanists have the same problem?

Are they all happy with the clappy venereal translation or do they crave the traditional latin?

The Mass was perfectly fine in its traditional latin form for the best part of 2000 years and now that the latin is at last getting
a - a proper translation and
b - directives from the Pope that if you want it you can have it
what more could you want?

apart from an excorcist in every dioceses

What we need are more priests willing and able to say the Extraordinary Form of Mass. At the minute, there is a real shortage of priests, but that should change in coming years as the new priests are produced.

This is interesting:

Disident Irish priests whinge about new translation, again, after meeting with Irish Bishops

AhSureTisGrand

Donatello wrote: »

What we need are more priests willing and able to say the Extraordinary Form of Mass. At the minute, there is a real shortage of priests, but that should change in coming years as the new priests are produced.

Which new priests? Where?

georgieporgy

The Vatican’s publishing house prints the volume of Church statistics annually. It includes names and biographies of major Catholic figures and offers a variety statistics on all those who work in apostolates and evangelization efforts the world over.

It also offer shorter term statistics. They report, for example, that between 2008 and 2009 the number of priests in the world increased by 809. According the Vatican newspaper, this is the highest jump since 1999 and a reason “to look to the future with renewed hope.”

This upward trend has been steady for the past 10 years and is gathering momentum.

St. John Vianney - Patron Saint of Diocesan Priests


ORA PRO NOBIS!

Although there has been a net decrease in numbers (lots of elderly members dying) in Europe and North America, this is well compensated for by statistics in the rest of the world. So cheer up! the future looks good.

Keylem

Galway Dioscese blog on New Missal variations.

http://www.galwaydiocese.ie/missalblog.html


Veritas taking pre-orders.

http://www.veritas.ie/The_Roman_Missal_Pre-Publication_Offer!/page.aspx

Donatello

Keylem wrote: »

Galway Dioscese blog on New Missal variations.

http://www.galwaydiocese.ie/missalblog.html


Veritas taking pre-orders.

http://www.veritas.ie/The_Roman_Missal_Pre-Publication_Offer!/page.aspx

There is a good offer on the small version of the altar missal. It would be good to have, and I plan on buying one, but we might prefer to wait until the layman's missal comes out. It'll be cheaper and will have the Sunday readings in it as well.