Watchdog says electric cars 'are as dirty as diesel'

Run_to_da_hills

Anyone working at Moneypoint Powerststion or similar could also tell you the same. Electricity that powers these cars has to be generated from somewhere.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1360062/Watchdog-says-electric-cars-dirty-diesel.html

Common sense, it's not all that common. However if we got more electricity from wind etc then it would be better. Wind turbines are an eyesore though. Fossil fuel generated electricity is far from environmentally friendly.

Run_to_da_hills

Bring Nukes power

Run_to_da_hills

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Bring Nukes power

Wouldn't be too bad if we could form an agreement with another nation for disposal. There'd be lots of work in the construction and commissioning of the station and nuclear is not anywhere near as bad a fuel as the great uneducated and ill informed folks would have you believe.

robtri

RoverJames wrote: »

Common sense, it's not all that common. However if we got more electricity from wind etc then it would be better. Wind turbines are an eyesore though. Fossil fuel generated electricity is far from environmentally friendly.

and wind turbines arent the most "green" either

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6946038.ece

robtri

robtri wrote: »

and wind turbines arent the most "green" either

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6946038.ece

No, there are a lot better than a fossil fuelled power station though.
Can't read your link.

keithclancy

Its a bit of a Chicken and Egg situation.

Why would a power company invest billions of euros into upgrading the Energy Grid and Nuclear power stations to facilitate the charging of cars that do not exist.

On the other hand why would you buy a car when there is nowhere to easily charge it.

Have to start somewhere.

AFAIK Ireland generates most of its power from Gas Fired Turbines whereas the UK uses Coal/Nuclear and Biomass.

Renewables are not really suitable as they need peak power (Gas fired Turbines again) to facilitate when the wind isnt blowing.

IMO they need to sort out the Batteries, i.e. Disposal, Charging times, maximum distance.

But in the end the Greenest car will always be the one you have, the longer you keep it on the road the greener it becomes.

robtri

RoverJames wrote: »

No, there are a lot better than a fossil fuelled power station though.
Can't read your link.

not if you live in certain parts of china it not... hers an extract

Just outside the heavily polluted industrial city of Baotou, Inner Mongolia, surrounded by smokestacks, lies a lake with no name.
At this time of year the lake bed freezes into waves of solid mud. In summer, locals say, it oozes a viscous, red liquid. It is a “tailing lake”, where toxic rare earth elements from a mine 100 miles away are stored for further processing.
Seepage from the lake has poisoned the surrounding farmland. “The crops stopped growing after being watered in these fields,” said Wang Cun Gang, a farmer. The local council paid villagers compensation for loss of income. “They tested our water and concluded that neither people nor animals should drink it, nor is it usable for irrigation.”
This is the price Chinese peasants are paying for the low carbon future. Rare earths, a class of metallic elements that are highly reactive, are essential for the next generation of “green” technologies. The battery in a Toyota Prius car contains more than 22lb of lanthanum. Low-energy lightbulbs need terbium. The permanent magnets used in a 3 megawatt wind turbine use 2 tons of neodymium and other rare earths.

Run_to_da_hills

RoverJames wrote: »

No, there are a lot better than a fossil fuelled power station though.
Can't read your link.

Wind turbines are very ugly and they also decapitate swans. :mad:

Anan1

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Anyone working at Moneypoint Powerststion or similar could also tell you the same. Electricity that powers these cars has to be generated from somewhere.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1360062/Watchdog-says-electric-cars-dirty-diesel.html

Did you read this before posting it? The article contradicts the headline:

wrote:

To test its theory, Which? looked at three of the first electric cars destined to hit the UK market and put them up against three 'efficient' conventional rivals.
Experts found, for example, that the electric Smart Fortwo, expected to cost around £21,000, creates an 'equivalent' of 84 grams of CO2 per kilometre driven, whereas the £9,540 diesel Smart Fortwo emits 103 grams.
It also compared the Nissan Leaf, the £23,990 electric car, with Volkswagen's diesel Golf 1.6 TDi Bluemotion costing £16,830.
The electric power generated to drive the Leaf is equivalent to CO2 emissions of 81g/km.By contrast, the diesel Golf has CO2 emissions of 108g/km.
Two 'super-minis' were also compared.
Which? found that the power generated to power the £24,045 Mitsubishi i-MiEV electric car was equivalent to 68g/km.
Then similarly sized Suzuki Splash costing £10,410 with a 1.3litre diesel engine has CO2 emissions of 131g/km.

user1842

keithclancy wrote: »

Its a bit of a Chicken and Egg situation.

Why would a power company invest billions of euros into upgrading the Energy Grid and Nuclear power stations to facilitate the charging of cars that do not exist.

On the other hand why would you buy a car when there is nowhere to easily charge it.

Have to start somewhere.

AFAIK Ireland generates most of its power from Gas Fired Turbines whereas the UK uses Coal/Nuclear and Biomass.

Renewables are not really suitable as they need peak power (Gas fired Turbines again) to facilitate when the wind isnt blowing.

IMO they need to sort out the Batteries, i.e. Disposal, Charging times, maximum distance.

But in the end the Greenest car will always be the one you have, the longer you keep it on the road the greener it becomes.

Just dam up an inlet on the east of the county and on the west and let tidal power do the rest.

Problem solved very easy to do it in Ireland too.

robtri

robtri wrote: »

not if you live in certain parts of china it not... hers an extract

That's poor planning and exploitation coupled with political corruptness.

robtri

RoverJames wrote: »

That's poor planning and exploitation coupled with political corruptness.

make it seem like FF are in power over there

langdang

robtri wrote: »

make it seem like FF are in power over there

Micheal martin has been practicing the lingo...

I actually like windturbines, think they are a great piece of engineering. I wouldn't put a windfarm in really scenic area, but most of the places I've seen em weren't any more crappy for having them..

vibe666

i'm hopeful that this discovery will bear fruit, but its far from the first time a 'revolutionary' energy source has been discovered/invented that never actually got anywhere.

still, keeping hopeful.

Tea 1000

It has to be remembered too that the petrol or diesel doesn't just come from the pump either, it has to be mined, refined and transported!
I think all cities should have electric cars for everyone. Leave the petrol for us who will use it wisely in V8's etc...

colm_mcm

As I see it, oil is used:

For:
Transport
Domestic heating
Electricity generation
Industry

The only one here that needs mobility is transport. All the others could be replaced with electricity bought in from abroad or generated here with less environmental consequences.
All this is nonsense when we're using oil for our heating etc. If electricity was more affordable we'd use it more.

Wossack

Anan1 wrote: »

Did you read this before posting it? The article contradicts the headline:

Yea, good ole daily mail..

A clean set of wheels? Research suggests that the Nissan Leaf electric car, pictured, produces CO2 emissions similar to a VW Golf


Yet, from the article, the Leaf is 81g/km, and the Golf is 108g/km.

Similar? I guess theres an '8' in both the figures..

Matt Simis

keithclancy wrote: »

Renewables are not really suitable as they need peak power (Gas fired Turbines again) to facilitate when the wind isnt blowing.

Thats not technically true, you can use Wind Turbines for instance (any renewable) pump water up a hill or compress air into underground caverns, the release of these timed when there is no wind/sun then turns turbines producing more clean energy.

With the correct supporting infrastructure or a combination of Renewable (import Sun energy from Portugal, export Wind energy from Nordics and Ireland) they very much can cover nearly all eventualities. Nuclear there as the fall back, its all possible.

pajo1981

I thought that FF powered stations were supposed to be multiple times more efficient than the motor in your car?

keithclancy

Matt Simis wrote: »

Thats not technically true, you can use Wind Turbines for instance (any renewable) pump water up a hill or compress air into underground caverns, the release of these timed when there is no wind/sun then turns turbines producing more clean energy.

With the correct supporting infrastructure or a combination of Renewable (import Sun energy from Portugal, export Wind energy from Nordics and Ireland) they very much can cover nearly all eventualities. Nuclear there as the fall back, its all possible.

Technically yes,

But you'd have to get all of the Grid Operators, Energy Generators, Regulatory Bodies, massive investment and sign off from the EU to says its not anti competitive and all of these across the Various Transport countries.

All of that for a Island off the coast of the UK, I do not think so.

Considering these days its hard not to get ripped off by Gazprom (or just have them turn the Gas off), or form any sort of a deal without the European Commission wrecking the whole thing, I cant see it happening, Ireland has to come up with its own plan.

Nuclear is a big investment for a country thats broke.

Even the Germans are extending the lifespan of their Nuclear power plants.

KamiKazi

It's common sense, but the gimps that buy these cars see a nice clean, quiet car and think it must be more eco-friendly.

dr.fuzzenstein

colm_mcm wrote: »

If electricity was more affordable we'd use it more.

That is EXACTLY the problem.
You're not supposed to use your car because it is dirty and destroys the planet.
You're supposed to use the (diesel powered) train and bus, which for some reason are squeaky clean and do no harm whatsoever.
They leave about 5 miles from your house at a time that doesn't suit you and go nowhere useful, but that's not the greens problem.
You're not supposed to use electricity because it's dirty and destroys the planet.
That means you can't use your car and, once enough people have bought one and electricity has gone through the fcuking roof, you can't use your electric car either.
Thank God the Greens will get annihilated, otherwise we'd all live in straw lined holes in the ground heated by our own (or someone else's) urine and ride a bicycle made from recycled cabbage.

engsmeng

Tea 1000 wrote: »

It has to be remembered too that the petrol or diesel doesn't just come from the pump either, it has to be mined, refined and transported!

You hit the nail on the head there, people regularly forget to add emissions from extraction, transport, refining and distribution, which presently stands at 0.30972 kg of CO2 per litre of fuel.

Pkiernan

engsmeng wrote: »

You hit the nail on the head there, people regularly forget to add emissions from extraction, transport, refining and distribution, which presently stands at 0.30972 kg of CO2 per litre of fuel.

Exactly, in this study Watchdog have assumed that fuel gets from underneath the sea and into your car by magic.

Electric cars will be the future, all they need is investment.

Look how fuel inefficient and polluting cars were 50 years ago.

If the same time and money is invested in E-cars why would any intelligent person not expect similar improvements??

Conor_M1990

Electric cars are all well and good but where does the power come from Fossil fuels you cant build a Nuclear power plant in Ireland cos it would never get planning due to "I think its a great idea but just not in my back yard"

The range is usless on them that nissan twig yoke or whatever its called can only do 160 km and has to be charged for 6-8 hours and Im sure if you plug it out the life of the battery is shortened and there problaby not cheap the battries to replace

Its a good idea electric cars the technology just has to be improved

alias no.9

vibe666 wrote: »

i'm hopeful that this discovery will bear fruit, but its far from the first time a 'revolutionary' energy source has been discovered/invented that never actually got anywhere.

still, keeping hopeful.

I remember reading about a very similar concept over a decade ago. Still waiting.
In addition to this, hydrogen is not a fuel, it is abundant but it is also very strongly bound within molecules and requires much energy to free it. Upon combustion it will release less useful energy per litre than was needed to create that litre of 'fuel'.

RobAMerc

I have to say, I am really looking forward to having an electric car, have you felt the way the Dart or Luas accelerate? The torque those babies generate is enormous.

The issue I have with the current crop of electrics is the fact they are not environmentally friendly and the pompous twats who drive them look down their noses at everybody.

lastly - its funny but the Prius is the best looking car Toyota make.

Iwannahurl

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

That is EXACTLY the problem.
You're not supposed to use your car because it is dirty and destroys the planet.
You're supposed to use the (diesel powered) train and bus, which for some reason are squeaky clean and do no harm whatsoever.
They leave about 5 miles from your house at a time that doesn't suit you and go nowhere useful, but that's not the greens problem.
You're not supposed to use electricity because it's dirty and destroys the planet.
That means you can't use your car and, once enough people have bought one and electricity has gone through the fcuking roof, you can't use your electric car either.
Thank God the Greens will get annihilated, otherwise we'd all live in straw lined holes in the ground heated by our own (or someone else's) urine and ride a bicycle made from recycled cabbage.

Rant rant rant rant. Did I mention rant?

There's more than one way to deal with the challenges of energy efficiency and CO2 emissions.

Here's just one webpage using evidence to counter the myth that public transport does not save energy (and hence emissions etc).

Not for discussion in this forum, but see if you can find any "straw lined holes in the ground" here.

astrofool

Efficiency level of large power plant >>>>>>>>>>>>> efficiency level of small ICE.

munchkin_utd

the one advantage of electric cars in a chronically windy country like ireland is that at night any wind turbines are creating electrictity that nodody can use.
Also, power stations are churing out power at night simply because its cheaper to keep her burning and sometimes just not feasable to turn on and off the power station at will (takes many hours to tun on a station normally)

Having a network of electric cars charging at NIGHT (from windpower & fossil stations on semi standby) means tapping otherwise unused power and eliminating a large amount of oil imports to the nation that go into the tanks of cars nowadays.

In first year mech eng, in 1995, we were being told that once a wonder battery existed you could store all the energy for peak time electricity consumption in massive battery stations or the likes from off peak times.

Unfortunately, there is still no wonder battery, and we have a lot of power generating capacity only needed for peak times. And that'll still be the case in the future.

But maybe the electrical car would be a way of getting some use of excess "wasted" power off peak and saving on expensive oil imports?
And back to the original point, IF the power used in cars is going to waste anyhow, then it REALLY is zero (net) emmisions.

dr.fuzzenstein

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Here's just one webpage using evidence to counter the myth that public transport does not save energy (and hence emissions etc).

All well and good on the public transport, now if it only left at a point and time that would be useful to me.
It has to be said that I do live a bit in the sticks, but I could still drive to the nearest bus stop.
However the bus then drives into Limerick and I'd have to get a taxi out to the industrial estate where I work.
That's right, the industrial estate where I work does not have a bus service.
Meaning that public transport would probably take at least twice as long to get me there and (with the taxi) probably cost more than twice as much.
I'd get a job closer to my house in the morning, but since Clare is nothing but a housing estate that serves Galway and Limerick, that won't happen. (Shannon industrial estate is bleeding to death at the moment)
If electric cars became a feasible option I would definitely consider it, right now I do not have E30k lying about in that large vault I keep in my cellar that's normally filled to the ceiling with gold and precious jewels (or so the government seems to think) and the last time I checked for credit I couldn't even get an increase in my limit on my credit card.
So will have to wait till electric cars become available second hand at a reasonable price.
There are pretty dreams and fantasies and lovely statistics, and there's reality for some of us.

limklad

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Anyone working at Moneypoint Powerststion or similar could also tell you the same. Electricity that powers these cars has to be generated from somewhere.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1360062/Watchdog-says-electric-cars-dirty-diesel.html

I still waiting on the calculation of Figures from Oil companies of the CO2 Figures that processing of Diesel /Petrol from crude oil.

There is No Independent verifiable information for that.
If you go to Oil refineries you see huge electric pylons going into those plants. If the CO2 for producing electricity included in their figures?

I am sceptical from information from both camps of this debate. I am more sceptical of the data from the oil companies as they have a lot to lose. They do not openly show for independently verified figures of the calculations they do use. As for Electric Car is more easily get figures as the power stations have to publish figures and easily verified by using financial figures they produced.

Oil Companies do not give figures of extracting, Transport and processing of the Crude oil to diesel, petrol etc. Crude Oil may pass through several oil companies, therefore the calculation may not be accurate.

There is one thing I am sure. Electricity will become more CO2 friendly as the % of sources of Electricity are increasing from renewable sources.

There is less parts in an electrical car than in a diesel and Petrol cars. So What are the true CO2 for the manufacturing of all the different cars including the Electrical car?

This debate will always be intense and plenty of counter argument for a long time yet.

One thing for sure. I will be going to by a electric car next
1/ as recharge cost is far cheaper than Petrol/Diesel costs.
2/. Recharging time for Electric cars are improving with every generation.
3/. Efficiency of Electric motors are improving
4/. Battery Technology is also going through huge improvements.
5/. Security of Energy. We very depended on unstable Areas of Energy.
6/. Renewable or local generated energy sources are a must and are increasing all the time.
7/. Running/service/Tax are cheaper for running costs.
8/. Electric cars will get cheaper with each generation once batteries costs comes down.

Things are getting far better for Electric cars while Diesel and Petrol vehicles are very depended on the Middle east and other unstable regions in the planet for source of fuel. Also Fumes from cars has other toxic effect. Pollution Power Stations for Electricity are usually far from Population centre and Chimney are high therefore we are not breathing that toxic air. Over the last 20 years Ireland Electrical power stations are less dependent on Oil and Coal and gone more towards gas and renewable power stations.

Gas is our next big worry for Electrical generation.

MoneyPoint is improving their power generating to reduce pollutants and increase efficiency.
http://www.esb.ie/main/about-esb/moneypoint.jsp

vibe666

here's another promising new tech that might help improve things.

http://inhabitat.com/new-lithium-ion-batteries-could-significantly-extend-the-range-of-electric-cars/

again, assuming it ever gets off the drawing board.

Iwannahurl

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

There are pretty dreams and fantasies and lovely statistics, and there's reality for some of us.

Couldn't possibly disagree with you about the pathetic state of spatial and transport "planning" in this here republic. Sure if it was otherwise you'd be wondering what country you were living in. The National Spatial Strategy was pure posturing, and the likes of Charlie McCreevey made sure to undermine it almost as soon as the ink was dry.

Nevertheless, the fact remains that in many areas there are still large numbers of people living within a radius of, say, 3 km of work or education. That kind of distance does not require car use for everyone yet a sizeable proportion of the population continues to travel by car, very often on solo journeys. Not only are they unnecessarily adding to particulate pollution and CO2 emissions, they are also unnecessarily contributing to congestion affecting those motorists who are genuinely car dependent. That's where public policy has to start taking a firmer and fairer hand.




.

keithclancy

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Couldn't possibly disagree with you about the pathetic state of spatial and transport "planning" in this here republic. Sure if it was otherwise you'd be wondering what country you were living in. The National Spatial Strategy was pure posturing, and the likes of Charlie McCreevey made sure to undermine it almost as soon as the ink was dry.

Nevertheless, the fact remains that in many areas there are still large numbers of people living within a radius of, say, 3 km of work or education. That kind of distance does not require car use for everyone yet a sizeable proportion of the population continues to travel by car, very often on solo journeys. Not only are they unnecessarily adding to particulate pollution and CO2 emissions, they are also unnecessarily contributing to congestion affecting those motorists who are genuinely car dependent. That's where public policy has to start taking a firmer and fairer hand.




.

How about a monthly Co2 Tax for people whos car is registered to an address within 3 km from their workplace.

If they do live within 3 km they don't get a Car Parking space ? ?

If they do want a parking space they pay an extra charge for be lazy ba^tards.

dr.fuzzenstein

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Couldn't possibly disagree with you about the pathetic state of spatial and transport "planning" in this here republic. Sure if it was otherwise you'd be wondering what country you were living in. The National Spatial Strategy was pure posturing, and the likes of Charlie McCreevey made sure to undermine it almost as soon as the ink was dry.

Nevertheless, the fact remains that in many areas there are still large numbers of people living within a radius of, say, 3 km of work or education. That kind of distance does not require car use for everyone yet a sizeable proportion of the population continues to travel by car, very often on solo journeys. Not only are they unnecessarily adding to particulate pollution and CO2 emissions, they are also unnecessarily contributing to congestion affecting those motorists who are genuinely car dependent. That's where public policy has to start taking a firmer and fairer hand.
.

If I lived within 3-5k of my workplace I'd be the first on my bike (unless it's bladdering down and I'd even take the bus then:)) and it absolutely should not be necessary to take the car unless you're disabled, have a lot of stuff to haul or maybe you car-pool.
Same should go for school, this hysteria that little Johnny will be abducted by perverts or run over by lunatics on the road as soon as you let him out of your sight is just madness and have you ever seen the utter bedlam that descends onto schools at drop off and pick up times?
Sadly my commute at present is 60 km and there's no alternative for me.
This is also coupled with the fact that I live in Clare where there is currently one job available (or so the rumours go).
In my previous job I was given a van and a fuel card (it's the ONLY way, believe me!) and never had to worry about the cost of motoring.
Now I have a different job where I earn a little less, hut having to run a car and commute 60k a day is putting a HUGE strain on my finances.
And the cost of fuel is deffo going up for the foreseeable future with no end in sight.
This will be a vicious circle for me, not enough money to trade up to a car that costs less to run because the current one is costing me too much to run and all my money going to the state.
Credit is hard to come by and in any case I'm so squeezed that I can't afford the repayments.
I'm stuck with what I have (a diesel Ford which is economical enough) but it won't look like myself or the many thousands of people in my situation will ever get a break.
Because there's next to no new jobs, no credit to be had, taxes will only go up as will fuel and there is no affordable alternative in sight within the next decade (bet you anything there won't be).
So I can only work till it doesn't work out anymore and commuting will become more expensive than the money I make, so I can only quit my job, sell the car and try to stay afloat while holding off the banks trying to get back my house.
In the context of the above I would like to thank FF and especially the Green party, anyone who voted for them: YOU MORON!!!
Anyone else: Thanks for seing sense. It won't get better, but it was time for a change, good, bad or indifferent.