Condenser boiler questions

indie armada

have some questions on these and they go as follows;

is it ok to install a condenser boiler(gas type), the wall mounted type externally, like in a coal shed or boiler house.

are ideal logic condenser recomended by anyone, and what is the differance between a system and standard unit. would i be right in saying a system has the pump pre-attached.

is it posible to buy a unit like this and self install up to the point you need the gas connected? and if not what would it cost to retrofit one to an existing system.

sullzz

indie armada wrote: »

have some questions on these and they go as follows;

is it ok to install a condenser boiler(gas type), the wall mounted type externally, like in a coal shed or boiler house.

are ideal logic condenser recomended by anyone, and what is the differance between a system and standard unit. would i be right in saying a system has the pump pre-attached.

is it posible to buy a unit like this and self install up to the point you need the gas connected? and if not what would it cost to retrofit one to an existing system.

Once the shed is not damp and is properly ventilated and is not prone to freezing it should be ok .

Your correct about the system boiler , it comes with exp vessel , pump , aav , and safety valve prefitted within the boiler

As far as fitting it yourself , don't do it , lads used to do it and get it certified by a plumber. I don't think too many plumbers these days would be willing to stand over anyone elses work , too much to loose

Joey the lips

have some questions on these and they go as follows;

is it ok to install a condenser boiler(gas type), the wall mounted type externally, like in a coal shed or boiler house. Vokera were successful with an outdoorcondensing balcony boiler. Dont know if its still available, Just get a box made for yours to seal the circuit board from dampness. But a plumber or electrician should better advise. There is nothing wrong with boxing it outside as they are sealed in anyway.

are ideal logic condenser recomended by anyone, and what is the differance between a system and standard unit. would i be right in saying a system has the pump pre-attached. Nothing wrong with ideal logic. A system has a built in pump and in somecases a bellows

is it posible to buy a unit like this and self install up to the point you need the gas connected? and if not what would it cost to retrofit one to an existing system.Dont know what this means but only RGII can install boilers and they need gas and electricity.

If you discuss self installiation of boilers up to anypoint i will close the thread. Its illegal

indie armada

thanks for the replys, the reason i ask about the self install was more to do with getting my hands on the unit prior to building the enclosure for it.
basically ive a friend who has an ofch free standing unit outside. he is looking to get gas in and is looking to install the condenser unit in a similar location as the ofch unit. so hes goin to build a small boiler house on the site of the current free standing unit and i could be involved in that and it would be ideal if i had the unit there to gauge the dimensions of the enclosure, this might mean ill have to mount the unit temporarily to get the position of the flue ect, is it illegal for me to do that? if so i could probably wash my hands of the whole affair and tell him he needs the registered guys from the get-go.
and just to clarify, ive no intention of touching his plumbing or his gas, he has a guy lined up for that.;)

JohnnieK

Wipe your hands of this my friend. By law only a registared gas installer can fit a gas appliance of any type. Also it's not only the unregistared fella that gets prosecuted but also the home owner if they knowingly hire the fella to do it.

heinbloed

As far as I know the installation of a boiler is not illegal when done by incompetent people, DIYers. It's the connection to gas pipes as well as the comissioning of the installation which MUST be done by professionals.

Joey the lips

heinbloed wrote: »

As far as I know the installation of a boiler is not illegal when done by incompetent people, DIYers. It's the connection to gas pipes as well as the comissioning of the installation which MUST be done by professionals.

Your incorrect. I am surprised at you considering you are usually so exact. If an incompetent person installs a boiler it makes the warrently invalid. If the warrently is invalid legally an rgii installer cannot connect it up. Just for your records mysons official defination on competence.

Definition of competence: A person who works for a CORGI
registered company and holding current certificates in the
relevant ACS modules, is deemed competent.
In IE, this must be carried out by a competent person as

stated in I.S. 813 “Domestic Gas Installations”.


Anyone who sells boilers where the trade and public comes to the counter must carry a waiver on there dockets saying "All goods must be installed by a competent person" there for the manufactures book prevails.

You can challange this if you wish but here is not the place. Just refere to any manufacturers handbook. Its clearly written. Oil gas or solid fuel... All carry there own risks.

indie armada

thanks for the info, ill be not getting involved in this then. i might still have to build the enclosure but it might have to be altered when the guy comes to fit the condensor and ill have to go by the dimensions which i can get online anyway.secondly this guy could turn around tomorrow and look to get it fitted indoors anyway. :rolleyes:

heinbloed

A competent person in the legal term (here: the boiler installation) is a person who installs the boiler in the correct way. Proof of the competence is the correct installation. Nothing else.
Ask your insurance.

It's the same with any installation. It's basic EU consumer law.

Therefore this competence is not further explained in the manual of a (gas)boiler, it is assumed that the reader of the manual understands the term "competent". The boiler manufacturer assumes that the reader understands the manual and installs accordingly

It is up to the person who connects the gas pipe and comissions the boiler to make sure that the boiler is installed correctly.

You can challange this if you wish but here is not the place. Just refere to any manufacturers handbook. Its clearly written.

This reference can be found in any manual, one has to understand it. See above....


As we both agree the connection to the gas pipe is a different issue. Here the national laws say clearly who is allowed to do so. And that a connected boiler is not to be used if not comissioned by a person determined by the national legislation is clear enough.

As an example of every days life: a car doesn't lose the manufacturer's warranty/guarantee if driven by a person who has not a valid driving licence.
The manufacturer's guarantee is valid as long as the person who drives it is competent to do so.
In case a guarantee issue arises it is up to the manufacturer/seller to proof that the car was used in another way than agreed on. It is not up to the driver to proof that he/she has used it wrongly.
The same goes for the boiler.
Or for example a water tap.
Or a light bulb.

We have seen in previous posts that registered boiler installers ( we assume that these posters are what the claim to be) do not understand the manuals. For example they install condensing boilers where the condensate trap runs inevitable dry. Where the condensate pipe freezes. And so on.
No manufacturer guarantee would cover such an installation. Because the person who installed it and propably also comissioned it did so in an incompetent way.
A home insurance or health insurance faced with a claim resulting from an incompetent boiler installation will very likely not cover in such a case. No matter if the installer was trained by the manufacturer or member of an organisation. Since the wrong installation in itself is evidence enough that the installer was incompetent to stick to the manual.
The same goes for a bursted water tap connection.
Or for an over-dimensioned light bulb causing a fire.


PS
I am not a legal advisor. Just someone who knows his consumer rights and duties.

Billy Bunting

I am not a legal advisor.

Yes!! but no doubt there are a few niggles to be found in the legal forum from you. :rolleyes:

heinbloed

heinbloed wrote: »

PS
I am not a legal advisor. Just someone who knows his consumer rights and duties.

The Energy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2006, makes it illegal for anybody who is not a Rgi to do gasworks, gas works include a boiler installations.

knighted_1

and it also states that nobody other than a rgi can work on a gas appliance so that covers the installation

yoshytoshy

heinbloed wrote: »

We have seen in previous posts that registered boiler installers ( we assume that these posters are what the claim to be) do not understand the manuals. For example they install condensing boilers where the condensate trap runs inevitable dry.

No chance of your trap running dry ,you're very long winded for such an expert and obviously have plenty of time on your hands.

I wonder why

Joey the lips

heinbloed wrote: »

A competent person in the legal term (here: the boiler installation) is a person who installs the boiler in the correct way. Proof of the competence is the correct installation. Nothing else.
Ask your insurance.

It's the same with any installation. It's basic EU consumer law.

Therefore this competence is not further explained in the manual of a (gas)boiler, it is assumed that the reader of the manual understands the term "competent". The boiler manufacturer assumes that the reader understands the manual and installs accordingly

It is up to the person who connects the gas pipe and comissions the boiler to make sure that the boiler is installed correctly.



This reference can be found in any manual, one has to understand it. See above....


As we both agree the connection to the gas pipe is a different issue. Here the national laws say clearly who is allowed to do so. And that a connected boiler is not to be used if not comissioned by a person determined by the national legislation is clear enough.

As an example of every days life: a car doesn't lose the manufacturer's warranty/guarantee if driven by a person who has not a valid driving licence.
The manufacturer's guarantee is valid as long as the person who drives it is competent to do so.
In case a guarantee issue arises it is up to the manufacturer/seller to proof that the car was used in another way than agreed on. It is not up to the driver to proof that he/she has used it wrongly.
The same goes for the boiler.
Or for example a water tap.
Or a light bulb.

We have seen in previous posts that registered boiler installers ( we assume that these posters are what the claim to be) do not understand the manuals. For example they install condensing boilers where the condensate trap runs inevitable dry. Where the condensate pipe freezes. And so on.
No manufacturer guarantee would cover such an installation. Because the person who installed it and propably also comissioned it did so in an incompetent way.
A home insurance or health insurance faced with a claim resulting from an incompetent boiler installation will very likely not cover in such a case. No matter if the installer was trained by the manufacturer or member of an organisation. Since the wrong installation in itself is evidence enough that the installer was incompetent to stick to the manual.
The same goes for a bursted water tap connection.
Or for an over-dimensioned light bulb causing a fire.


PS
I am not a legal advisor. Just someone who knows his consumer rights and duties.

Your just being padantic and digging a deeper hole and your right your not a legal advisor so stop trying to convince us that joe public can hang there own boiler. When competitence is defined as in the case i pointed out its clear. Are you suggesting a person spends a lot of money testing the waters with a defination of competitence?

Heres one better. Some manufacturers will not even let you open the box unless your qualified and there is nothing illegal about there actions because again you must be qualified.

I would love to carry on this discussion with you when you see sense.

heinbloed

heinbloed wrote: »

We have seen in previous posts that registered boiler installers ( we assume that these posters are what the claim to be) do not understand the manuals..

What do you risk if you have a bad day at the office? what does a RGI risk if he/she gets it's wrong, it's easy to have a opinion when it cost you nothing.

heinbloed wrote: »

For example they install condensing boilers where the condensate trap runs inevitable dry. Where the condensate pipe freezes. And so on..

Every good installer be it gas or oil puts safety first, until you work on something that goes bang i can't explain the paranoia that develops to leave a job safe, the idea that any manufacture, supplier, installer, service man would leave a dangerous installation is silly, you have a theory but have you tried proving it yourself, in my opinion with the paranoia that is inherent in my industry and oil as well I'm confident then any issues with safety would be treated very seriously, again to think otherwise is a bit silly.

heinbloed

heinbloed wrote: »

No manufacturer guarantee would cover such an installation. Because the person who installed it and propably also comissioned it did so in an incompetent way.
.

The warranty would only be affected if there was damage to the boiler, most boilers have condense sensors or a way of preventing damage if the condensing line gets blocked, preventing any real drama.