Voting from abroad

Duke Leonal Felmet

I have noticed an argument put forward by opponents of Irish citizens voting from abroad in which they say that since these citizens are not paying taxes in Ireland, they are not entitled to a vote.

I have two questions, the first for the opposition:

Should the unemployed be allowed to vote?

For the general reader:

What is the constitutional position on this? What rights do citizens have with regards to voting?


Thanks.

Lord TSC

Personally, I wouldn't stop people voting from abroad because they don't pay taxes. I'd stop people voting from abroad because they do not live in the country and thus do not have to face the ramifications of any actions carried out by those elected.

If you decide to leave a country for whatever reason, you can't then expect to get to play a role in deciding how that country is run henceforth. If you're not living in Ireland, you should not get to influence how the country will proceed.

hardCopy

What constituency should overseas voters vote in?

OhNoYouDidn't

The unemployed pay indirect taxes like the rest of us.

The issue isn't taxation per say. Its not having to deal with the consequences of your vote. What constituency would an Irish person living in Germany get to vote in?

In terms of 'rights' you have to be resident in a ward or constituency to vote in it.

Mucco

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Should the unemployed be allowed to vote?

Unless they consume nothing, the unemployed pay tax.

In my opinion, it's not just a matter of tax, it's a matter of having to live with the consequences of your voting decision. I live in London, extremely little of what happens in Ireland affects me. Why should I have a say?

I think a lot of Irish emigrants in other countries feel disenfranchised as they cannot vote in their host country. This is more of an argument for immigrants to be allowed to vote than for ex-pats to vote in Irish elections. I vote in Westminster elections and don't feel disenfranchised at all.

M

munchkin_utd

hardCopy wrote: »

What constituency should overseas voters vote in?

quite possibly the last place you were registered to vote.

people never previously resident in Ireland could be considered a difficult issue to solve, but most people in the republic dont care about the north, so it would probably be universally acceptable to simply continue to deny them any say in running the country we call "Ireland"

Duke Leonal Felmet

Interesting points. Do you not believe in a sense of citizenship, given that our country is meant to be a constitutional republic? Sure, these people may live abroad, but they are still citizens of this nation. Surely the process of voting shouldn't be viewed as suffering the consequences of the outcome, but rather as making an honest decision about who is best to lead the country forward. A country these people might like to return to someday. The sense of negativity I see towards this diaspora saddens me, to be frank...

As for the constituency question, well that is a tough one. I guess it would have to be your place of birth, or some similar rule. Most civilised countries seem to manage such a system, how do they do it?

Mucco

There are 1.2m citizens eleigible to vote in N Ireland. That's an extra 40% over the current ~3m in the Republic. Add ex-pats and you have over 50% of the electorate being non-domiciled. Do you really want that sort of power wielded from outside the country?

Duke Leonal Felmet

Mucco wrote: »

There are 1.2m citizens eleigible to vote in N Ireland. That's an extra 40% over the current ~3m in the Republic. Add ex-pats and you have over 50% of the electorate being non-domiciled. Do you really want that sort of power wielded from outside the country?

If they are citizens, then I have no issue.

paul71

What is interesting is that this has become an issue now with the new wave of emigrants. I do not recall it being as big an issue in the 80s and it is posible that is because that generation expected never to be able to return. As it turned out they did return but they were the first to do so en masse.

Its seems that the current group of emigrants expect to return but can anyone see that expectation matching realialty, I am not am not bringing this up from a position of smugness. I fully expect to be gone myself soon, but recognise the fact that I may not come back this time and cannot see how I could be allowed to vote on issues in 2 or 3 years where the consequence of my vote would not directly effect me.

paul71

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

If they are citizens, then I have no issue.

There are about 1 million citizens living in the states, uk and australia. 60s, 70s, 80s emigrants who have not lived here for 30+ years, we cannot allow them the vote as they are completely disconnected from the country.

dlofnep

My sister is in England for the week - What are her options?

Duke Leonal Felmet

paul71 wrote: »

There are about 1 million citizens living in the states, uk and australia. 60s, 70s, 80s emigrants who have not lived here for 30+ years, we cannot allow them the vote as they are completely disconnected from the country.

What's this 'we' business about? Do you speak on behalf of the country now? If they are as 'disconnected' as you say, then they will have no interest in voting anyway. You have nothing to fear from the 'disconnected'.

munchkin_utd

paul71 wrote: »

There are about 1 million citizens living in the states, uk and australia. 60s, 70s, 80s emigrants who have not lived here for 30+ years, we cannot allow them the vote as they are completely disconnected from the country.

IF they are disconnected, then they wont vote!

Their apathy will counterbalance your fear of a wave of strategic clueless voters.

Mucco

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

If they are citizens, then I have no issue.

Is there any theoretical limit? If 99% of the citizens lived abroad, would be willing to allow them to decide on your health policy, tax rate etc.....

sink

paul71 wrote: »

There are about 1 million citizens living in the states, uk and australia. 60s, 70s, 80s emigrants who have not lived here for 30+ years, we cannot allow them the vote as they are completely disconnected from the country.

If they are so disconnected from what goes on here I would imagine very few of them would bother.

If the electoral system was changed to a list system, then I think absentee ballots should be allowed because people won't have to be divided into constituencies.

Duke Leonal Felmet

Mucco wrote: »

Is there any theoretical limit? If 99% of the citizens lived abroad, would be willing to allow them to decide on your health policy, tax rate etc.....

That is just a silly question. But my position would remain. Either that or redefine what a citizen means. If people who leave the country are temporarily a non-Irish citizen, then I will see your point.

danbohan

paul71 wrote: »

There are about 1 million citizens living in the states, uk and australia. 60s, 70s, 80s emigrants who have not lived here for 30+ years, we cannot allow them the vote as they are completely disconnected from the country.

most of whom contributed greatly to this country through help to their familys etc etc and you feel they are disconnected . perhaps the really disconnected ones are sanctimonious elite who managed to stay here and in doing so have brought this country to its knees .

munchkin_utd

Mucco wrote: »

Is there any theoretical limit? If 99% of the citizens lived abroad, would be willing to allow them to decide on your health policy, tax rate etc.....

its a good point, and the essence of why there ISNT a vote. The presumption of cluelessness and reckless voting that affects things that dont affect the (currently) non resident voter.

government is MORE than day to day filling potholes and making a hames of the health system (although in ireland politics is still sometimes not more advanced than a crowd of county councilors who were thrown the keys of the land in 1922).

theres other things like environmental policy, building regulations etc that are VERY long term. Bigger social issues like the age of consent, abortion, the position of the church, etc

When (more than if) I move back to Ireland, I'll have to deal with the decisions made now on issues much greater than any simple day to day tweaking of the current budget.

OhNoYouDidn't

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

That is just a silly question. But my position would remain. Either that or redefine what a citizen means. If people who leave the country are temporarily a non-Irish citizen, then I will see your point.

I have no problem with Irish citizens overseas getting a vote in the Presidential elections or Referendums. They impact us as a nation.

But I do have a problem with Irish citizens overseas getting a vote in local, general or european elections. They impact us as a country.

If you don't live in Ireland you don't require local or national representation from Irish politicians.

Lord TSC

When (more than if) I move back to Ireland, I'll have to deal with the decisions made now on issues much greater than any simple day to day tweaking of the current budget.

It's great you plan on coming back someday, but how do we differentiate between those who plan on coming back and those who don't? Why should people who have no plans on ever returning and being affected be given the choice in how our lives are run? And how do you realisitically determine who will be affected by coming back one day and who won't?

For me, if you make the decision to leave a country for an elongated period of time, so do you give up some benefits of living in a country. If you opt to remove yourself from a society, you cannot then expect to play a role in decision making during your absence. If you return some day, then you should get your right to vote back, since the actions will directly affect you THEN, but in the mean time, there's no way of determining who these actions will affect in the future; only in the imediate time and that's those living in a country.

paul71

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

What's this 'we' business about? Do you speak on behalf of the country now? If they are as 'disconnected' as you say, then they will have no interest in voting anyway. You have nothing to fear from the 'disconnected'.

No I speak as a registered voter entitled to express my opinion just as you are, thank you. I know though that in 3 years I would be uncomfortable about voting if I had not lived here for 3 years.

Lets be honest to allow a population the right to vote from outside the country when the size of that population probably exceeds the number of registered voters in the state is not practical and destrinctly undemocratic as that population would not have to live with the consequence of their vote.

There may well be a case for allowing people who have resided in the state at some stage in the last 5 years but I can't see allowing people who have been away in excess of that time to vote serving any purpose.

Also someone asked how other countries deal with it, I would be hard pressed to think of another country that has anything even approaching our level of legacy emigration, so the solution we come up with by default will be unique to Ireland because we are the only country with this type of situation.

paul71

danbohan wrote: »

most of whom contributed greatly to this country through help to their familys etc etc and you feel they are disconnected . perhaps the really disconnected ones are sanctimonious elite who managed to stay here and in doing so have brought this country to its knees .

I don't feel they are disconected, the ones I know are disconected. I have an Aunt in her Seventies in New York who does not know what the European Union is. I have several cousins in New York who hold Irish Passports and have never been here.

Duke Leonal Felmet

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I have no problem with Irish citizens overseas getting a vote in the Presidential elections or Referendums. They impact us as a nation.

But I do have a problem with Irish citizens overseas getting a vote in local, general or european elections. They impact us as a country.

If you don't live in Ireland you don't require local or national representation from Irish politicians.

Those are good points.

jimmycrackcorm

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

I have noticed an argument put forward by opponents of Irish citizens voting from abroad in which they say that since these citizens are not paying taxes in Ireland, they are not entitled to a vote.

I don't think the argument is based on taxpayers - though if it was then it would extrapolate to those paying more taxes should have more representative say.

My argument is that people living abroad should not have a vote unless they are in a position to live with the consequences of their vote. I cannot see the rationale for someone who has emigrated permanently being able to dictate policies that I will have to live with but they will not have to.

danbohan

paul71 wrote: »

I don't feel they are disconected, the ones I know are disconected. I have an Aunt in her Seventies in New York who does not know what the European Union is. I have several cousins in New York who hold Irish Passports and have never been here.

your aunt in her 70s might not know what European union is even she lived here i know many that dont or care less , does it make her any less irish , no , does she deserve to have an input into a country that probably forced her to move out as it is still doing today , yes , does she want it ,some will some wont ,but they have the right to decide .

ninty9er

My aunt is just gone back to the states in the last 2 weeks. If she were allowed to vote it would be for Fianna Fáil.

She has no party affiliation and has been living in the US for 20+ years.

Should the emigrant vote be granted, those at home would most likely be outraged at the result as those overseas would see completely through the bull**** that the recession, repossessions etc are not unique to Ireland and would be extremely angry at any party that suggests otherwise.

the 2 largest emigrant populations are in the US and UK where they face MORE cuts than any party here has implemented or proposed.

In fact the only thing that would stop my aunt voting FF would be that they don't seek to cut social welfare enough.

Just as well she doesn't have a vote, she'd just be one more with nobody to vote for.

paul71

danbohan wrote: »

your aunt in her 70s might not know what European union is even she lived here i know many that dont or care less , does it make her any less irish , no , does she deserve to have an input into a country that probably forced her to move out as it is still doing today , yes , does she want it ,some will some wont ,but they have the right to decide .

So to the logical conclusion, the people of the north both nationalist and unionist can vote here, the emigrants of 60s 70s 80s can vote here, the emigrants of the last 3 years can (I agree on this group) can vote, citizens by good friday agreement born in States, Canada, ect. never having set foot on the Island can vote.

You realise that the remaining group the citizens who live in the 26 counties would very posibly be a minority. I think that is worthy of a great deal of debate.

One consequence could be a unionist party in the south holding the balance of power in every election, good or bad? That is a question not an opinion.

Ray Burkes Pension

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

I have noticed an argument put forward by opponents of Irish citizens voting from abroad in which they say that since these citizens are not paying taxes in Ireland, they are not entitled to a vote.

I have two questions, the first for the opposition:

Should the unemployed be allowed to vote?

For the general reader:

What is the constitutional position on this? What rights do citizens have with regards to voting?


Thanks.

The unemployed pay VAT on everything they purchase.

Sure the money has been handed to them from the government to go right back to the government. But you can say the same thing about public service workers.

munchkin_utd

paul71 wrote: »

I don't feel they are disconected, the ones I know are disconected. I have an Aunt in her Seventies in New York who does not know what the European Union is. I have several cousins in New York who hold Irish Passports and have never been here.

indeed.

which is why you should tie to to having had a proveable former residence within the 26 counties, if you want a workable solution!
(with previous pps nr or evidence of attending school etc, letter from a friendly Sinn Fein councilor in Dundalk not being acceptable!!)

With a swipe you get rid of the northern Ireland problem, and it also excludes any plastic paddies in the states etc who have the passport but havent been in the country, not long enough anyways to have copped on to Irish politics.

Also, by asking for a bit of paperwork, only the committed and informed will take the effort to get the formalities in place for the vote.
So the clueless 70 year old aunt very likely also wouldnt be likely to be making her (un-)informed choices.

paul71

Just had an idea based on my last post, wouldn't be nice if we had Big Ian Paisley going to bang the IMF/ECB table on our behalf instead of Meek Enda, Lost Eammon or Fail Martin.

Bet that would confuse 'em.