Middle East Uprisings - Irish Related Question

OhNoYouDidn't

Question came up recently and I would be interested to see what the gang think.

If a similar situation to Libya, Bahrain etc occured in Ireland - a mass uprising to force out the discredited political elite and create meaningful change, would the Irish state react any differently?

So a: would the powers that be hesitiate to send out troops to shoot us off the street and b: if so, would they obey they orders? The Gardaí have no problem wading into peaceful protesters with ferocity, would an increase in the stakes mean an increase in reaction? The Defence Forces have shot and killed unarmed citizens before, specifically prisoners trying to escape from Portlaoise, although the context is somewhat different.

I personally think the answer to a: is not for one second and b: the majority would refuse.

Oen to the floor.

Permabear

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Poccington

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Question came up recently and I would be interested to see what the gang think.

If a similar situation to Libya, Bahrain etc occured in Ireland - a mass uprising to force out the discredited political elite and create meaningful change, would the Irish state react any differently?

So a: would the powers that be hesitiate to send out troops to shoot us off the street and b: if so, would they obey they orders? The Gardaí have no problem wading into peaceful protesters with ferocity, would an increase in the stakes mean an increase in reaction? The Defence Forces have shot and killed unarmed citizens before, specifically prisoners trying to escape from Portlaoise, although the context is somewhat different.

I personally think the answer to a: is not for one second and b: the majority would refuse.

Oen to the floor.

There's a difference between civilians and members of the IRA.

As for the question itself, ask Ned O' Keefe. He seems to be clued into all these things. :pac:

OhNoYouDidn't

Permabear wrote: »

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Talk about missing the point completely...

In Ireland, or any 'western' country, do you think the state would hesitiate to react with the same ferocity to a credible grass roots threat to its legitimacy as Libya or Bahrain? If they did, would the Gardaí and army play ball?

OhNoYouDidn't

Poccington wrote: »

There's a difference between civilians and members of the IRA.

As we saw in Mayo, elements of the establishment were very quick to claim that the protest was a Provo front and let the Gardaí off the leash. The point of that was that the Defence Forces have on occasion shot unarmed citizens of this state. If the circumstances were different, what is to suggest they wont do it again?

Permabear

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Poccington

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

As we saw in Mayo, elements of the establishment were very quick to claim that the protest was a Provo front and let the Gardaí off the leash. The point of that was that the Defence Forces have on occasion shot unarmed citizens of this state. If the circumstances were different, what is to suggest they wont do it again?

The Defences Forces shot members of the IRA attempting to break free from Portlaoise Prison. It's a completely different scenario to riot's on the streets from ordinary citizens.

If you want to talk about the experiences of the DF in Public Order incidents, look up the riots in Kosovo.

who the fug

Look, if the army accepted Dev coming to power as the will of the people, they are never going to go against them.

So the power that be may wish things it ain't going to happen

OhNoYouDidn't

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

The premise of the thread isn't that this uprising is going to happen.

The premise is that hypothetically would the Irish state ever order its troops to fire live on protesters?

It is a debate forum, is it not?

OhNoYouDidn't

Poccington wrote: »

The Defences Forces shot members of the IRA attempting to break free from Portlaoise Prison. It's a completely different scenario to riot's on the streets from ordinary citizens.

They followed a standing order and an unarmed man got shot and killed. If the order was to shoot lots of unarmed people, would they do so?

Poccington wrote: »

If you want to talk about the experiences of the DF in Public Order incidents, look up the riots in Kosovo.

I'm not doubting they can handle themselves in a riot, my question is if the order came down to defend Kildare St and shoot anything that moved, would they?

dsmythy

The government would dissolve itself and elections be called. Democracy wins again.

Wolfe Tone

I would like to think the Defense forces would how more restraint and humanity than their British counterparts and not fire on unarmed civilians who are protesting. I cant imagine them doing anything like that

JustinDee

I would like to pedantically point out that Algeria, Libya, Tunisia are not in the Middle East.

Thank you.
I shall get my coat.

Raging_Ninja

If the 'protests' consisted of stuff like what was happening in France a couple years ago (violence, riots and general thuggery), then I think order should be restored in accordance with the Constitution. We have a liberal democracy, and power changes hands regularly and in an orderly fashion with the consent of the people, at elections.

Violence should have no place in politics, because it only ushers in tyranny.

zig

There is no way they would be ordered to such thing, and the troops wouldnt fire.
Ive no reason for my basis, but we are a completely democratic country, we are passed all that. We dont have a dictatorship, so as someone else said, if we really rallied in the way they are there the dail would be dissolved fairly quickly.

whoopdedoo

Permabear wrote: »

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cough cough :eek:

Soldie

If this scenario is entirely hypothetical, and you do not wish to discuss the likelihood of it ever happening, then why are you posting it in the politics forum?

Nevertheless, I think your crude comparison would be quite insulting to those who are actually living, or have lived, under repressive dictatorships.

OhNoYouDidn't

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Are you serious? Have you just airbrushed 3,300 deaths out of existance?

Einhard

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Question came up recently and I would be interested to see what the gang think.

If a similar situation to Libya, Bahrain etc occured in Ireland - a mass uprising to force out the discredited political elite and create meaningful change, would the Irish state react any differently?

So a: would the powers that be hesitiate to send out troops to shoot us off the street and b: if so, would they obey they orders? The Gardaí have no problem wading into peaceful protesters with ferocity, would an increase in the stakes mean an increase in reaction? The Defence Forces have shot and killed unarmed citizens before, specifically prisoners trying to escape from Portlaoise, although the context is somewhat different.

I personally think the answer to a: is not for one second and b: the majority would refuse.

Oen to the floor.

If a group of demonstators tried to violently usurp democracy for their own ends, I'd use violence myself to help put them down. To compare the situation in Ireland with that of Egypt and Libya, especially in the week of a General Election is nonsensical, and an insult to those who actually shed their blood for what we actually have.

Einhard

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Are you serious? Have you just airbrushed 3,300 deaths out of existance?

Have you just invented 3,300 deaths in Republic of Ireland? How can this state be held accountable for the deaths of civilians in another state? This is a rather silly thread.

OhNoYouDidn't

Einhard wrote: »

Have you just invented 3,300 deaths in Republic of Ireland? How can this state be held accountable for the deaths of civilians in another state? This is a rather silly thread.

He said "the Irish" have no history of rioting or political violence. Thats self evidently not true

Einhard

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

He said "the Irish" have no history of rioting or political violence. Thats self evidently not true

It's pretty obvious that "Irish" was used in the context of the Republic of Ireland. Hence, "are statistically one of the most economically troubled nations in Europe".

OhNoYouDidn't

Einhard wrote: »

It's pretty obvious that "Irish" was used in the context of the Republic of Ireland. Hence, "are statistically one of the most economically troubled nations in Europe".

It was far from clear. Saying "the Irish" never riot or engage in political killings to achieve political change is wrong, even if you want to be a smartarse and say the north isn't Irish.

Nice of you to ride to his rescue, but he can defend himself.

sink

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So a: would the powers that be hesitiate to send out troops to shoot us off the street and b: if so, would they obey they orders?

A: No they wouldn't, it would be illegal. B: No, legally Irish troops are allowed refuse illegal orders.

/thread

A Dub in Glasgo

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Nice of you to ride to his rescue, but he can defend himself.

Karpmans Drama Triangle, sometimes the rescuer becomes the victim as the original victim becomes the persecutor.

---

I do not think the state would order the Army to fire into a crowd of (peaceful) protesters. If they were ordered, I do think the soldiers would refuse.

Einhard

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

It was far from clear. Saying "the Irish" never riot or engage in political killings to achieve political change is wrong, even if you want to be a smartarse and say the north isn't Irish.

Nice of you to ride to his rescue, but he can defend himself.

Was attempting to rescue you from an obvious misunderstanding actually.