1.4 Ford Focus Engine not turning

Buford T Justice

Guys and gals.

I have a 02 Ford Focus Freedom 1.4. The water pump seized in it today, so I got a new pump and a timing belt kit as I might as well do it too.

Process as follows:
Took off the header tank, engine mount, released the tensioner on the alternator and removed fan belt. Took the pulley wheel off the water pump.
Took out the spark plugs to release the compression and rotated the engine by hand and all was well, engine was turning.

Tried to get the crank bolt out and it wasn't going anywhere, so resorted to using an impact gun to get it out. Zip, out it came and I took off all the timing belt covers. I put the pulley wheel back on to rotate the engine again to line up the marks on the cams, and to find TDC but the engine won't turn a complete rotation.

When you turn the engine with a ratchet it will turn freely for about a half a turn on the crank and will then come to a dead stop. You can now only rock back and forth half a turn. I had a look down the spark plug holes to see if I could see anything obvious, and I noticed that there was bits of cardboard down under the plastic rocker cover and on top of the threads. Firstly, I thought WFT are they doing there. It then got me thinking that something fell down the hole and into the cylinder.

I have two theories on this:
A) A piece of cardboard has fallen into a cylinder and is preventing a complete rotation happening. However, surely it wouldn't then come to a dead stop, it would be somewhat softer due to the nature of cardboard.

The timing belt has slipped a tooth as a result of the impact gun. I thought about this, and thought that if this happened, wouldn't one side of the belt be much tighter and a bit of slack on the other? However, I did notice that the belt tensioner is somewhat ovaled now instead of circular. I can't attest to what it was before, as the covers were on.

I'm leaning more towards B at the moment, and one of the valves is hitting a piston but I wanted to know if any of the Guru's here would have any suggestions.


If I take off the belt, and I will, whats the best way to get TDC on the crank and line up the two cams to the right setting to replace the belt?

Any advice or suggestions are gratefully appreciated.

Plug

LOL. Never touch a ford engine without timing tools. Its an impossible task to do so. Ya see they are no keyways on them, the pulleys are on a taper and just tightened with the bolts. What is happening now is the pistons are kissing the valves. Your going to have to get your hands on the correct special tools.

Buford T Justice

I know the pulley is tapered, but isn't there TDC marked on the cam sprockets and the crank?

Plug

Fingers McGee wrote: »

I know the pulley is tapered, but isn't there TDC marked on the cam sprockets and the crank?

NOPE. Impossible to do without timing tools. The cam pulleys are tapered too.

Buford T Justice

The position of the belt pulley doesn't really matter though does it?? What's important is the position of the crank shaft in relation to the two cams?

Slidey

Plug wrote: »

NOPE. Impossible to do without timing tools. The cam pulleys are tapered too.

I know a mechanic with years of experience who got caught out with one of these when they were new enough. Cost him about a grand to repair it for the customer

bryaner

Fingers McGee wrote: »

I know the pulley is tapered, but isn't there TDC marked on the cam sprockets and the crank?

Off with ya and get the pulley locking tools dude..

Buford T Justice

Ok, so I'm a little further, but not much.

The crank pulley for the timing belt is also tapered, and I though it would have a keeway in it, but I guess not.

So the timing is definitely off in the engine, hence it won't turn by hand.

Was chatting to a garage nicely and they will give me the lend of the timing tools to do this.

I think its basically a bolt for the engine block to stop the crank at tdc, and there's a bar that's used for lining up the two cams.

Does anyone know the steps involved in doing this? I'll know if its not right, because I won't get the engine turned by hand.

Thanks

El Guapo!

As far as I can remember its straight forward enough. I think its just a bolt that screws in and locks the crank, and you remove the rocker cover and insert the bar to lock the cams.

Plug

Take off the usual anyway, rocker cover etc. Turn the cams so the plate will slide into the back of them, it will only go in one way. There is a 10mm blank at the back of the block down at the driveshaft, take that out and put in the blank and lock the crank against it, as soon as it stops thats it, don't continue tightening it.

Ya see your after starting off arseways, usually you turn the crank until the cams are a few degrees off(just before you can insert the plate into the cams) and THEN you put in the pin at the back of the engine, lock the crank against it and THEN slide in the plate at the back of the cams. Thats how its normally done.

I haven't a clue what way your engine is turned now but just get this, the pin should go the whole way in, if its out by about 1mm take it out and rotate the crankshaft again. Try inserting the pin then it should go in fully. Now lock the crank against it. As above don't over do it, its a positive stop. Don't break the pin.

MajorMax

wait a minute. .... Um, can you repeat the part of the stuff where you said all about the...things?

Plug

MajorMax wrote: »

wait a minute. .... Um, can you repeat the part of the stuff where you said all about the...things?

pie-man

here ye are mate. dont forget to remove the locking bolt when finished

Buford T Justice

Cheers plug.

Although the timing is now arseways, I was thinking I could do the following.

Adjust cams so all valves are closed, which will allow the crank to be spun, to allow be to get TDC and the crank around to the plug i put into the block. Put the bar on top of the two cams, and loosen the bolts on the sprockets to allow them to spin. Put the belt on, and tighten the bolts on the cams and on the crank, and also release the pre-tensioner.

Rotate the engine two rotations by hand, and get back to TDC with the plug, and put the bar on top of the two cams again to check that the cams are in the right position......

Am I on the right track?

Slidey

Not really because there will always be some valve that will not be closed.

What I would do, and I am open to correction from the ford lads here.

Set the cam so that you can put the locking tool in place. I am assuming this is TDC on No1 so that means No4 should be rocking the cam (Just changing between exhaust to inlet)

Take out the spark plug in No 1 cyl and leave a long welding rod in. Rotate the crank til you see the welding rod rise to its top spot and start to fall. Your crank locking pin should now be close to fitting in.

Because you never turned the engine too far you should get it set up like this.

*Warning* This really is a job for someone who knows what they are doing. If by following my instructions it all goes arse ways (just cause you know where I work) does not mean you can come out and beat me with a shovel!

Plug

Fingers McGee wrote: »

Cheers plug.

Although the timing is now arseways, I was thinking I could do the following.

Adjust cams so all valves are closed, which will allow the crank to be spun, to allow be to get TDC and the crank around to the plug i put into the block. Put the bar on top of the two cams, and loosen the bolts on the sprockets to allow them to spin. Put the belt on, and tighten the bolts on the cams and on the crank, and also release the pre-tensioner.

Rotate the engine two rotations by hand, and get back to TDC with the plug, and put the bar on top of the two cams again to check that the cams are in the right position......

Am I on the right track?

Maybe slideys will work op, never tried that.
Loosen the cam sprockets. Turn the cams with a 22mm spanner to a few degrees before the plate can fit into them(make sure the you turn the cams clockwise). Put in the pin into the block and turn the crankshaft so it hits that pin, then turn the camshafts so the plate can fit into the back of the cams.
Take out no.1 spark plug and put down a screwdriver, the piston should be at TBC roughly. So to summarize everything up when the you have the cam plate in and the crankshaft resting against the pin, number 1 piston should be at tbh.

Plug

Have a look at the this painting I done out, it will give you an idea what Im on about at the back of the camshafts.

Nissan doctor

There is never a point where all valves are closed.

Also, if you have impacted the valves with the pistons at all, even when rotating by hand, the valves should be reseated/lapped.


However, from the point you are at now, Your best bet is to remove the plug from cylinder 1 and use a long screw driver or extension bar to approximately gauge when cylinder 1 is at tdc so that you know when you insert the crank locking pin that it is in fact tdc and not bdc.

When doing the belt on this engine the tools physically lock the cams and crank, the position of the cam and crank pulleys is irrelevant once the cams/crank are locked in the correct position. To refit the belt, you need undo the cam pulley bolts so the pulleys are spinning freely.

Buford T Justice

Thanks guys.

Funnily enough, what i actually did is pretty much the way you all mentioned it.

Rotated the crank to TDC on Cylinder 1, using a welding rod as a guide and inserted the plug. Bam, spot on.
Took off the rocker and loosened the cam sprockets, inserted the locking tool into the cams rotating them with a spanner. Put on the belt, tightened up the sprockets just over hand tight and rotated the engine two turns. Put the locking tool and plug back into the engine and it was spot on again, the timing wasn't out at all. Torqued all up and happy days......... or was it.

I rebuilt the whole thing and got ready for the big start. The engine turns, but runs like a bitch and is missing. I broke the sensor plug between cylinders 1 and 2, but not so worried about that at the minute. I think the timing may be very slightly out, but I doubt it since the car starts no problem.

There's now a knocking in the head. I thought at first it was the oil not getting up to it, since the angle the car was at when i was working on it. Left it for a minute but it got no better. Anyhow, i figured its either a bent valve (which would have happened yesterday) or one of the shims is not letting any oil in.

Went to check if there was a loss of compression in any of the cylinders, which would tell me if there was a bent valve, but I couldn't get the friggin compression tester into the spark plug housing - fecker.

Anyway, I've done as much as I know how to do with it, and I'm not getting into the business of taking off the head to get valves re-seated and so forth. I know a bit about it, but not enough to be confident to get the proper result after the time I would spend on it.

She's now taking a trip to the hospital in the morning. I was quoted 400 squid max to have the whole 16 valves replaced on the car, should they all need to be done, so I'm happy with that, and I don't feel like I'm getting robbed.


P.S. Thanks for all the help. I rekon it would have been fine if I spent a bit more time reading up before hand on such things like no keeway's on the sprockets. Life would have been so much simpler if ford put them in their engines.

FWIW, I'm glad I made an attempt to do it, although i didn't succeed, and the fact that it's the way it is now is only my own fault.

Now Slidey, where did I put that shovel......:D

Plug

Fingers McGee wrote: »

Thanks guys.

Funnily enough, what i actually did is pretty much the way you all mentioned it.

Rotated the crank to TDC on Cylinder 1, using a welding rod as a guide and inserted the plug. Bam, spot on.
Took off the rocker and loosened the cam sprockets, inserted the locking tool into the cams rotating them with a spanner. Put on the belt, tightened up the sprockets just over hand tight and rotated the engine two turns. Put the locking tool and plug back into the engine and it was spot on again, the timing wasn't out at all. Torqued all up and happy days......... or was it.

I rebuilt the whole thing and got ready for the big start. The engine turns, but runs like a bitch and is missing. I broke the sensor plug between cylinders 1 and 2, but not so worried about that at the minute. I think the timing may be very slightly out, but I doubt it since the car starts no problem.

There's now a knocking in the head. I thought at first it was the oil not getting up to it, since the angle the car was at when i was working on it. Left it for a minute but it got no better. Anyhow, i figured its either a bent valve (which would have happened yesterday) or one of the shims is not letting any oil in.

Went to check if there was a loss of compression in any of the cylinders, which would tell me if there was a bent valve, but I couldn't get the friggin compression tester into the spark plug housing - fecker.

Anyway, I've done as much as I know how to do with it, and I'm not getting into the business of taking off the head to get valves re-seated and so forth. I know a bit about it, but not enough to be confident to get the proper result after the time I would spend on it.

She's now taking a trip to the hospital in the morning. I was quoted 400 squid max to have the whole 16 valves replaced on the car, should they all need to be done, so I'm happy with that, and I don't feel like I'm getting robbed.


P.S. Thanks for all the help. I rekon it would have been fine if I spent a bit more time reading up before hand on such things like no keeway's on the sprockets. Life would have been so much simpler if ford put them in their engines.

FWIW, I'm glad I made an attempt to do it, although i didn't succeed, and the fact that it's the way it is now is only my own fault.

Now Slidey, where did I put that shovel......:D

Sensor between cyl. 1 and 2? Surely its in between 2 and 3? Thats the coolant temperature sensor. You probably are are making sh!t of the valves alright, when you torqued them was the plate at the back of the cams. When you torque them make sure you check the timing then.
You went the right way about seeing was the timing correct, rotating the crank twice to see will the pins and plate go in. 10 points.

I think your going to have to edit your signature now about the General Handyman:p

Buford T Justice

Plug wrote: »

Sensor between cyl. 1 and 2? Surely its in between 2 and 3? Thats the coolant temperature sensor. You probably are are making sh!t of the valves alright, when you torqued them was the plate at the back of the cams. When you torque them make sure you check the timing then.
You went the right way about seeing was the timing correct, rotating the crank twice to see will the pins and plate go in. 10 points.

I think your going to have to edit your signature now about the General Handyman:p

General handyman maybe, but mechanically kakhanded at the minute. Yeah I meant Cylinder 2 & 3. Working days and late nights on the car takes its toll on ones memory.

I don't get it. I did the timing as I was supposed to, and when I was torquing the cam sprockets the plate was still in the cams, and I had a 22 spanner on the cam shafts. Did a few rotations of the engine and the timing was bang on.

Brought the car down to a garage today and he had a listen. Told me it was definitely the valves hitting the pistons that he was hearing. He reckoned that by the time the head was rebuilt with 16 new valves (15 squid each), a head gasket, new oil, new coolant, new fan belt (One I got yesterday was too long) etc.... I wouldn't have too much change out of 500 yoyo. That sounded ok to me, but he was saying that you don't know if any damage has been done to the piston heads, shell bearings or gudgeon pins as a result of the pressure being exerted down (Hairline cracks etc.), and may well not manifest itself into a knocking until maybe 3 or 4 months time.

I'm now in a situation where I don't want to put good money after bad. there is currently no test on the car, and with the money it'll cost to put right at the minute, there's also the addition of the NCT repairs that'll need doing. I know the exhaust is blowing out a little, and the engine was idling a bit too high, and the brakes need doing.

I think I might be better calling it a day on this car and getting another similar focus with a test. That way I'll have this yoke for parts should i need them and the gearbox is sound.

I rekon if I was to get another engine for it, It'll cost around 500, and then my time to fit it. If I was doing that, i'd be in more or less the same position as I would be if I got the head re-done.

Any suggestions oh wise ones?

Slidey

It is unlikely that you have bent 16 valves. Worse case scenario is 4 or 5 I would think.

IMO it is probably worth getting the head taken off and looking at the pistons. If there is no visible damage you should be ok. Just my 2c

bryaner

Fingers McGee wrote: »

General handyman maybe, but mechanically kakhanded at the minute. Yeah I meant Cylinder 2 & 3. Working days and late nights on the car takes its toll on ones memory.

I don't get it. I did the timing as I was supposed to, and when I was torquing the cam sprockets the plate was still in the cams, and I had a 22 spanner on the cam shafts. Did a few rotations of the engine and the timing was bang on.

Brought the car down to a garage today and he had a listen. Told me it was definitely the valves hitting the pistons that he was hearing. He reckoned that by the time the head was rebuilt with 16 new valves (15 squid each), a head gasket, new oil, new coolant, new fan belt (One I got yesterday was too long) etc.... I wouldn't have too much change out of 500 yoyo. That sounded ok to me, but he was saying that you don't know if any damage has been done to the piston heads, shell bearings or gudgeon pins as a result of the pressure being exerted down (Hairline cracks etc.), and may well not manifest itself into a knocking until maybe 3 or 4 months time.

I'm now in a situation where I don't want to put good money after bad. there is currently no test on the car, and with the money it'll cost to put right at the minute, there's also the addition of the NCT repairs that'll need doing. I know the exhaust is blowing out a little, and the engine was idling a bit too high, and the brakes need doing.

I think I might be better calling it a day on this car and getting another similar focus with a test. That way I'll have this yoke for parts should i need them and the gearbox is sound.

I rekon if I was to get another engine for it, It'll cost around 500, and then my time to fit it. If I was doing that, i'd be in more or less the same position as I would be if I got the head re-done.

Any suggestions oh wise ones?

More chance of Gerry Adams being Taoiseach as there being any damage to your gudgeon pins or bearings, only ever saw major damage to pistons when a valve or valve seat dropped into the cylinder, I'd say the pistons are 100% considering the strength of a piston/ conrod v a valve stem..

Plug

If the piston is fcuked Ford won't sell them individually.

Buford T Justice

Slidey wrote: »

It is unlikely that you have bent 16 valves. Worse case scenario is 4 or 5 I would think.

IMO it is probably worth getting the head taken off and looking at the pistons. If there is no visible damage you should be ok. Just my 2c

I doubt that its bent all the valves, but its definitely bent some.
Was chatting today and the suggestion was made that was did the new belt have the same number of teeth as the old one. I think it did, but they are a bastard to count. Could have been the reason for the timing to have slipped out and done the damage.

That, or maybe one of the cams turned ever so slightly when they were being torqued. I doubt it but can't be 100% sure.

The timing is definitely out. There's a terrible miss in the engine now and you can hear the valves contacting the pistons, so whichever of them they are, are already bent at this stage.

Thinking long and hard about it today. I'd be able to get a new engine for 500, and then fit it, or I could get the head re-done for the same. Either way the car will only be back to the way it was, with no test on it. It'll take 2 or 3 hundred quid I'd say to get it right for the test with would be up at about 800, just to put a round figure on it.

I can get a 5 door version (have only a 3 door) for 1250 I hope, its a 00 and sounds in good nick, with the belt done at 72K, and it has a test on it. I'm wondering would I be as well spend the extra 500 odd to have a running car with a test, and a yoke there i can break / sell.

Plug

I'd just get the head done because at least you know its a new water pump and timing belt on it. You won't need to get the head skimmed.

Nissan doctor

The timing would have to several teeth off in order for the valves to be contacting the pistons and if that was the case, the engine wouldn't run by itself, even poorly. If the timing pin/plate all slotted in perfectly after turning the engine then the timing is perfect. Also, if the kit was for a focus then there won't be any issue with the amount of teeth on the belt.

A much more likely cause for the noise is that a couple of the valves, as I said might be the case, have been kicked slightly off their seats when you contacted the piston off them rotating by hand.

Make sure whoever is doing the work for you does a compression/leakdown test before stripping the head which will give a good idea of the problem before the job is started.

Buford T Justice

Cheers ND.

I tried to do a compression test myself but i couldn't get the feckin tester into the sockets. May have been the rocker cover bein a pain in the ass but I couldn't get it done. It would have made live easier, and I'd have at least known how many cylinders were affected to give me an idea.

Have a feeling she might be heading for the great carpark in the sky........ After all what needs doin, I rekon it could be too much of a risk to end up throwing good money after bad, considering what the repair of the head'll cost, plus the work for the NCT...... and so on....

May be as well tryin to shift it on donedeal either for breaking or break it myself and sell it......

David09

I have a complete spare head for a Ford focus 1..4. It came from an engine that had bottom end damage. I'd sell it for 50 euro if you want it.

Plug

David09 wrote: »

I have a complete spare head for a Ford focus 1..4. It came from an engine that had bottom end damage. I'd sell it for 50 euro if you want it.

GET IT!!!

Buford T Justice

David09 wrote: »

I have a complete spare head for a Ford focus 1..4. It came from an engine that had bottom end damage. I'd sell it for 50 euro if you want it.

Where you based David?

David09

Carlow, but I'm in Dublin 5 days a week.

dharn

it restores my faith in man to see all the help and support this man is getting

Buford T Justice

Thanks for the offer David, I really appreciate it. And for all the help on this, thanks to everyone for the help.

After talking it over, and considering all options. (No car to ferry the kids around etc...) we've decided to bite the bullet and buy another car, and break this one for parts.

Bought a 00 1.4 Zetec focus 5 door today. At least we have a means of transport now.

Have a few questions on that one, but I'll start a new thread on that.

Thanks again guys.