Islam "incompatible" with democracy

Einhard

One of the most persistent charges against Islam over the past few years is that the religion, and therefore the Muslim faithful, are fundamentally incompatible with democracy. Very few public figures have declared this in a public forum, but there has always been a significant body of opinion which subscribes to the view. The view is fairly regularly on internet fora, including boards and, on anecdotal evidence, is quite prevalent elsewhere in society. Some of my friends, who could otherwise be described as liberals, are quite happy to deem people power irreconcilable with a fifth of the world's population, purely on the basis of the particular religious book they hold dear.

When one points out that Turkey is one of the most long established secular democracy on the planet, or that Indonesia seems to be making a good go of democracy, these people find flaws and faults in both societies to tear down their democracies. As if all Christian democracies are flawless. The fact that Muslims have risked life and limb in Iraq and Afganistan to exercise a right which c.40% of Irish people scorn every election, is just ignored. The fact that Muslim populations don't actually have a say in the dictatorships which rule over them is also ignored. Thus the rule of autocrats such as Gaddaffi in Libya or el-Assad in Syria are evidence that Muslims disdain democracy, whereas dictatorships in Christian and other countries are brutal violations of the peoples' will.

In the past few weeks however, millions of Muslims (and Christians also) in North Africa, and in the Middle East, have come onto the streets, faced down baton wielding thugs, tear gas, and live ammunition to demand their voices be heard. In Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, Bahrain, and now Libya, people have braved the threats of torture and death to demand their democratic perogative- rights which a proportion of Western society snidely argues are incompatible with the beliefs of the very people dying in their pursuit.

Hopefully, with the brave and often mortal determination of ordinary Muslims to claim democratic rights now so evident, those who have lazily, and sometimes xenophobically, contended that Muslims, and their religion, is irreconcilable with democracy will have been put in their place. To state that Muslims cannot believe in Allah and democracy, whilst Muslims lie dead in the streets for wishing to do so, would not only be ignorant, but shockingly callous to boot.

Pure Sound

Most religions are incompatible with democracy as they generally work in an undemocratic way. You do not vote for who your priest, bishop, pope is etc they are appointed by the hierarchy of the religion that they represent

RichieC

We Need Community wrote: »

Most religions are incompatible with democracy as they generally work in an undemocratic way. You do not vote for who your priest, bishop, pope is etc they are appointed by the hierarchy of the religion that they represent

O.o and corporations? businesses...ect.. your point?

KeithAFC

They follow Muhammads words. As we all know, its like following Ted Bundys word on Womens rights.

Lumen

You're attempting to construct an multi-paragraph argument against shallow-thinking idiocy.

This is pointless.

Micky Dolenz

As interesting as that probably was, there are much better places for you to discuss it.

Namely,

Islam

You may want to PM the Islam Forum mods first though.

Micky Dolenz

Reopened.

Micky Dolenz

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Reopened.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooo..........................!!!!!!!!

OP----> tl:dr

Islam is seperate from democracy.

Democracy is breaking out in the Muslim world. And it's secular.

End.

x in the city

Islam is incompatible with anything and everyone tbh.

Not even F1 GP it seems..

Son Of A Vidic

KeithAFC wrote: »

They follow Muhammads words. As we all know, its like following Ted Bundys word on Womens rights.

Selective discrimination I see, before attacking Islam don't forget about the Emperor and his 'princes' in Rome. They haven't much time for womens rights and we all know were they stand on children's rights don't we.

Dozen Wicked Words

Deleted User wrote: »

NOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooo..........................!!!!!!!!

OP----> tl:dr

Islam is seperate from democracy.

Democracy is breaking out in the Muslim world. And it's secular.

End.

The beginning is secular, too early to say if it stays that way or not.

Einhard

KeithAFC wrote: »

They follow Muhammads words. As we all know, its like following Ted Bundys word on Womens rights.

Ah, because Christianity and Judaism have always had such liberal and open attitudes to the rights of women:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jephthah

http://rarebible.wordpress.com/2009/04/26/take-my-daughter-and-my-friends-concubine-and-rape-them/

Oh, but that's the OT, and sure Christianity is all about the New Testament. Isn't that the standard claptrap used by those who seek to damn Islam for words written in its holy book, whilst giving Christianity a free ride for equally, of not more, horrendous passages in the Bible? Obviously, the self-same people have never been to mass before...

I'm not seeking to condemn Christianity here mind. I'm arguing that religions, and particularly, the religious, are not monolithic entities, whose views will always correspond to those of their ancient forebears. The beliefs of Christianity, the works on which its teachings are based, are the exact same as they were 500 years ago. Yet Christians have, by and large, transcended that, and adapted their beliefs. Much the same has happened, to a more limited extent of course, in the Muslim world, and there is nothing to suggest that it cannot continue.

galwayrush

If only religon was left to be a private thing and not used as a tool to control the masses for some fanatic's agenda .

amacachi

x in the city wrote: »

Islam is incompatible with anything and everyone tbh.

Not even F1 GP it seems..

Yeah, damn muslims standing up for their rights.

Canis Lupus

Deleted User wrote: »

NOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooo..........................!!!!!!!!

OP----> tl:dr

Islam is seperate from democracy.

Democracy is breaking out in the Muslim world. And it's secular.

End.

Look at you debating in a thread on religion in After Hours....

Giselle

Islam is, to passing observation, anti-freedom of speech, anti-freedom of conscience, anti-freedom of religion, anti-freedom of women, anti-freedom of artistic expression and anti-pretty dresses.

Same old, same old in terms of western christian democracies then.

Oh_Noes

Democracy and Capitalism are incompatible morelike.

Canis Lupus

Giselle wrote: »

Islam is, to passing observation, anti-freedom of speech, anti-freedom of conscience, anti-freedom of religion, anti-freedom of women, anti-freedom of artistic expression and anti-pretty dresses.

Same old, same old in terms of western christian democracies then.

I'm against anything that prevents women from wearing short shorts.

KeithAFC

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Selective discrimination I see, before attacking Islam don't forget about the Emperor and his 'princes' in Rome. They haven't much time for womens rights and we all know were they stand on children's rights don't we.

Its true. Nothing i said in that post wasn't true.

Ps, i know about the Pope. The republic has a big problem with the sucking of his ass.

Nodin

KeithAFC wrote: »

They follow Muhammads words. As we all know, its like following Ted Bundys word on Womens rights.

Well theres some of them that don't approve of women leaving the home, people drinking, dancing, hate the gays, sex...
obviously theres no tradition of that kind of thing on this Island

Nodin

KeithAFC wrote: »

Its true. Nothing i said in that post wasn't true.

Ps, i know about the Pope. The republic has a big problem with the sucking of his ass.

Yes, if it wasn't for him we'd have been a big bunch of liberal 24 hour party people like our estranged brethern up north....

aDeener

Einhard wrote: »

Ah, because Christianity and Judaism have always had such liberal and open attitudes to the rights of women:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jephthah

http://rarebible.wordpress.com/2009/04/26/take-my-daughter-and-my-friends-concubine-and-rape-them/

Oh, but that's the OT, and sure Christianity is all about the New Testament. Isn't that the standard claptrap used by those who seek to damn Islam for words written in its holy book, whilst giving Christianity a free ride for equally, of not more, horrendous passages in the Bible? Obviously, the self-same people have never been to mass before...

I'm not seeking to condemn Christianity here mind. I'm arguing that religions, and particularly, the religious, are not monolithic entities, whose views will always correspond to those of their ancient forebears. The beliefs of Christianity, the works on which its teachings are based, are the exact same as they were 500 years ago. Yet Christians have, by and large, transcended that, and adapted their beliefs. Much the same has happened, to a more limited extent of course, in the Muslim world, and there is nothing to suggest that it cannot continue.

ah good ole whataboutery, i've missed thee

KeithAFC

Nodin wrote: »

Well theres some of them that don't approve of women leaving the home, people drinking, dancing, hate the gays, sex...
obviously theres no tradition of that kind of thing on this Island

Who cares for some mini church led by Ian Paisley.

BASHIR

Why do you care about what other people think about certain faith, people are not perfect and opinions will always differ. be happy for the people of those countries they are rising up against evil dictators who have done nothing productive for their countries in all their time in power. Hopefully in the future those peoples children will live in a democratic nation where they have the same right as the person in charge.

You say that its peoples opinions that islam is not compatible with democracy. yes your are right that is alot of peoples opinion but, equality and freedom have been identified as important characteristics of democracy since ancient times, so it is their right to have these opinions wether you agree or not

Nodin

KeithAFC wrote: »

Who cares for some mini church led by Ian Paisley.

...a church inextricably linked with the largest of the unionist parties, thus giviing it rather more punch than it might otherwise have, and which, rather amusingly, holds many of the same views as conservative Islam...

KeithAFC

Nodin wrote: »

...a church inextricably linked with the largest of the unionist parties, thus giviing it rather more punch than it might otherwise have, and which, rather amusingly, holds many of the same views as conservative Islam...

The DUPs policies in politics are completely different from the religious doctrine which his church follows.

My head. It hurts.

Nodin

KeithAFC wrote: »

The DUPs policies in politics are completely different from the religious doctrine which his church follows.

Did Iris Robinson get that memo?

Did the DUP?

The DUP tried to overturn the Sexual Orientation Regulations, which outlaw discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation when accessing goods and services.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-3882.html

"The Belfast Humanist Society has hit out over DUP moves to have Biblically-based theories like creationism and 'intelligent design' taught in science classes.
Creationists believe the Earth was created by a greater being, God, and that the accounts in the book of Genesis are literally true. They believe that Genesis contradicts the theory of evolution and that it should be taught as part of the science curriculum.

The proposal was made by DUP councillor Paul Givan, who is also a member of the Free Presbyterian Church.
Members of the SDLP and Sinn Fein opposed the proposal, but a spokesman for the DUP confirmed that both Mr Givan and Mr Simpson's views were in keeping with party policy. "


Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/education/tussle-of-biblical-proportions-over-creationism-in-ulster-classrooms-13479246.html#ixzz1EdiGNYws

Nodin

Deleted User wrote: »

My head. It hurts.

Imagine the party that'll happen if the Hindus start emigratin......

'Dey won't let Ye eat a Burger'
'dey kidnapped me mot and made her a lower caste slapper..'
'Dey Want their Elephant God to trample ye inta de ground, so dey do..'

Son Of A Vidic

KeithAFC wrote: »

Its true. Nothing i said in that post wasn't true.

So Ted Bundy can be equated to Muhammad? That's some leap of faith (forgive the pun) Then to pronounce it as being true? Your opinion yes, true? maybe not.

Victor

These aren't the only such quotes I've seen.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0221/yemen.html

Meanwhile, Yemeni clerics issued a statement today prohibiting the use of force against protesters, which they described as a 'crime,' and calling for a ban on arbitrary arrest and torture.

'Any act of beating or killing of protesters is a deliberate crime,' said the association of Yemeni clerics headed by Sheikh Abdul Majid Zindani.

The clerics demanded a ban on 'arbitrary arrest and (all forms of) torture' and said that pro-government rallies should be held away from protest demonstrations to avoid the deadly clashes of recent days.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0218/bahrain.html

'Massacre'

Bahrain's most revered Shia cleric, Sheikh Issa Qassem, described the police attack as a 'massacre' and said the government had shut the door to dialogue.

He was speaking to those gathered for Friday prayers at a mosque in a Shia village in the northwest of the island.

KeithAFC

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

So Ted Bundy can be equated to Muhammad? That's some leap of faith (forgive the pun) Then to pronounce it as being true? Your opinion yes, true? maybe not.

Just two sides of the same coin.

Einhard

BASHIR wrote: »

Why do you care about what other people think about certain faith, people are not perfect and opinions will always differ. be happy for the people of those countries they are rising up against evil dictators who have done nothing productive for their countries in all their time in power. Hopefully in the future those peoples children will live in a democratic nation where they have the same right as the person in charge.

You say that its peoples opinions that islam is not compatible with democracy. yes your are right that is alot of peoples opinion but, equality and freedom have been identified as important characteristics of democracy since ancient times, so it is their right to have these opinions wether you agree or not

And I equally have the right to challenge them.

K-9

Jaysus it's quiet for a Muslim thread.