Penn & Teller, Derren Brown - Actors

liah

I'm just wondering if there's ever been any conclusive evidence to point towards Derren Brown or Penn & Teller using actors in their shows.

There's obviously plenty of rumour and controversy, particularly in the case of Brown, but has there ever been anyone to actually come forward and say they were paid actors, or any evidence (reputably sourced) that they have used actors when they've said they haven't?

I haven't been able to find anything via a quick google, which is interesting considering how long both acts have been around-- you'd figure if they did use actors something would've come up by now. But I could've missed something.

reverenddave

from what i know of derren brown
on all his live tv shows the audience have been genuinely sourced from universities and colleges
also if/when he does use ''actors/stooges'' he would brag about it

penn and teller on the other hand
AFAIK rarely use ''audience members'' so they would have no reason to hide anything

thats my two cents anyway

horgan_p

From what little I know (or have read on the subject) neither Derren nor Penn and Teller use actors in their routines.

Derren has an amazing knack of taking older (in some cases very old) effects and dressing them up. I mean that with the utmost respect and admiration can I add.
Penn and Teller have often (that I have seen) actually explained how they achieve some of their illusions and effects. So I therefore dont think they use actors either.

However, if you were to ask about Chris Angel for instance.........

liah

I love Penn & Teller and Derren Brown, have an awful respect for them for a wide variety of reasons, yet if I discuss them or muse about their techniques, I'm frequently met with things like "oh they just use actors," (lesser with Penn & Teller for obvious reasons, but e.g. the Unpleasant World Of when they put the male audience member in the box and drop him in the water) was just curious if there was anything to these claims or not!

Voodu Child

liah wrote: »

I'm frequently met with things like "oh they just use actors,"

Its no different to saying 'oh they just use sleight of hand', or 'oh, he's just hanging on black wire' or something similar.

You're better off not knowing the answer to your question. There is no fun in knowing the secret of an effect - the enjoyment comes from the effect itself and the presentation.

liah

Voodu Child wrote: »

Its no different to saying 'oh they just use sleight of hand', or 'oh, he's just hanging on black wire' or something similar.

You're better off not knowing the answer to your question. There is no fun in knowing the secret of an effect - the enjoyment comes from the effect itself and the presentation.

Not for me, I'm interested in the psychology and/or skill behind it moreso than the "omg magic!!11" factor. Hell, I'd get into magic if I didn't have to buy about a thousand books. I just want to know their authenticity.

oeb

liah wrote: »

Not for me, I'm interested in the psychology and/or skill behind it moreso than the "omg magic!!11" factor. Hell, I'd get into magic if I didn't have to buy about a thousand books. I just want to know their authenticity.

Well, it's all fake. That's the point.

However, most magicians make it a point of pride not to use stooges. It's typically seen as less skilled and if the use of them (like camera tricks) ever comes to light in the greater circle of magicians their employer often becomes a subject of derision. And especially when dealing with higher profile magicians like the ones you mentioned above, everything they do tends to be closely analyzed by fans (Who often may be magicians themselves) and the media, so secrets like that often don't stay secret for long.

liah

oeb wrote: »

Well, it's all fake. That's the point.

However, most magicians make it a point of pride not to use stooges. It's typically seen as less skilled and if the use of them (like camera tricks) ever comes to light in the greater circle of magicians their employer often becomes a subject of derision. And especially when dealing with higher profile magicians like the ones you mentioned above, everything they do tends to be closely analyzed by fans (Who often may be magicians themselves) and the media, so secrets like that often don't stay secret for long.

Jesus, I know it's fake, it's magic ffs and I'm not a moron-- it's not what the magicians themselves are doing I'm curious about. E.g. in the case of Derren Brown, I simply want to know whether or not the lad he sent to Morocco in Trick or Treat, for instance, was an actor or not. Or with Penn & Teller, whether some of the people they talk to on BS have been paid off, etc.

And I know they don't stay secret for long when the subjects are high-profile, that's why I was asking to see if there was anything reported that I may have missed.

I'm not asking this question because of magic, I'm asking it because I want to know they're credible and don't use stooges when they say they're not using stooges.

Voodu Child

liah wrote: »

I'm not asking this question because of magic, I'm asking it because I want to know they're credible and don't use stooges when they say they're not using stooges.

It wouldn't make them any less credible to say one thing and do another.

They're magicians, the minute they get up on stage they are setting out to deceive you. For Derren Brown to say "I don't use stooges" and then to go and use them would be no different to Paul Daniels waving a hoop over someone and saying "Look, they're not being supported by anything!". Im not saying he actually is using stooges, but the point is that it is a statement made by someone who is already in the role of a magician when he makes it.

Its no different to any of his other claims. Hypnosis, NLP (:pac:), psychology etc., he is allowing you to believe he is using them to accomplish many of his effects. If you found out he was not actually using these would you think less of him, or more?

liah

Voodu Child wrote: »

It wouldn't make them any less credible to say one thing and do another.

They're magicians, the minute they get up on stage they are setting out to deceive you. For Derren Brown to say "I don't use stooges" and then to go and use them would be no different to Paul Daniels waving a hoop over someone and saying "Look, they're not being supported by anything!". Im not saying he actually is using stooges, but the point is that it is a statement made by someone who is already in the role of a magician when he makes it.

Its no different to any of his other claims. Hypnosis, NLP (:pac:), psychology etc., he is allowing you to believe he is using them to accomplish many of his effects. If you found out he was not actually using these would you think less of him, or more?

In this case I'd put the magicians and the audience/marks as two separate categories. I expect the magician to use tricks and be deceptive, but the authenticity lies in the effects on the mark; if the mark isn't genuine then the magician is no good, imo what makes a good magician if he can perform in front of/with people who don't know what's going on and achieve the desired effect. I expect a magician to lie about pretty much everything, but not when it comes to whether or not they use stooges.

e.g. I'd put no weight in Criss Angel, for instance; I don't care how pretty his tricks are if it's all done in front of/with people who know what's involved in their production. Where's the fun in that? I'd just go see a movie if I wanted that kind of thing.

Basically, while I admire the skill involved in other aspects of magic, it's the manipulation of the unknowing audience I find most impressive and interesting.

PeakOutput

Voodu Child wrote: »

It wouldn't make them any less credible to say one thing and do another.

They're magicians, the minute they get up on stage they are setting out to deceive you. For Derren Brown to say "I don't use stooges" and then to go and use them would be no different to Paul Daniels waving a hoop over someone and saying "Look, they're not being supported by anything!". Im not saying he actually is using stooges, but the point is that it is a statement made by someone who is already in the role of a magician when he makes it.

Its no different to any of his other claims. Hypnosis, NLP (:pac:), psychology etc., he is allowing you to believe he is using them to accomplish many of his effects. If you found out he was not actually using these would you think less of him, or more?

i dont think its the same at all. if you are at a magic show and there is a stooge that is one thing. if you have a tv show were you tell people you are going to hypnotise someone and send them abroad without them knowing it and then you just use an actor thats quite another

im not sure i believe in hypnotism but i do believe in things like nlp and general psychology obviously so i think that a lot of the things derren brown does (like asking an adult to draw the one birthday present they would want more then any other in the world but you have already forced them to draw a bmx without them knowing it) are possible through psychology and therefore it is impressive that he has such a mastery of these principles(if he does) and can make magic tricks out of them.

it is not impressive to just pay an actor to go on tv and pretend.

for what its worth i believe that if derren brown, in particular, uses actors on a regular basis i think it would have already come out. i could be naieve though

jill_valentine

Indeed. Maybe for magic types the distinction between "honest" deception and the use of stooges isn't a big one, but for me and I think most other regular audience joes, it definitely is. I like being outsmarted, I don't like being cheated - you might as well just do it all in CGI.

In Brown's case at least, he's always made a very big point of saying he doesn't use stooges, so I suspect that he'd have too much to lose if he was found to be doing otherwise. That's the trouble with stooges, you can't use the same guys over and over, and every one you use has a mouth.

Pal

jill_valentine wrote: »

In Brown's case at least, he's always made a very big point of saying he doesn't use stooges,

What about the guy that inconspicuously queues up at half time and lifts a bunch of audience envelopes ?

oeb

Pal wrote: »

What about the guy that inconspicuously queues up at half time and lifts a bunch of audience envelopes ?

That's not a stooge.

A stooge is someone who pretends to be a spectator to play a very major part of an act (eg pretending to be hypnotised etc), that guy is just a stage hand doing something that could have been accomplished just as easily (but more expensively) by something such as a gimicked table and a false bottomed box.

And having using a stooge or paid actor as part of an act is seen as very very different to your basic method lies. That's misdirection =P

ziedth

Just a note on this: I was called up on Stage for Derren Brown during his ENIGMA tour for a trick that at least 5 people after the show accused me of being a stooge (not in a angry way it must be said) and I can tell ya i'm not a stooge

liah

ziedth wrote: »

Just a note on this: I was called up on Stage for Derren Brown during his ENIGMA tour for a trick that at least 5 people after the show accused me of being a stooge (not in a angry way it must be said) and I can tell ya i'm not a stooge

Ooooh, what'd you get to do?! Or rather, what'd he get to do to you

ziedth

In a nutshell, I wrote down a childhood memory and he had me stand there without talking and wrote down on an A1 pad what it was. Basically it was how I walked he could tell it was something I regreted and so on, it was deadly being up there but thinking back I think I know how he did it. It was some experience as I'm a huge fan.

liah

How do you think he did it..?

zuroph

the only thing I think that derren has come close to "stooging" is where he uses a hypnotised person, and even then its a very rare thing, and is it really stooging if the person themselves isnt fully aware of why they do it?

there is some great derren brown discussion groups out there and im fairly sure i can explain any of his effects without using a stooge.

Penn and teller even more so, they use stage hands, but not stooges. and like HorganP said, chris angel, he uses stooges. very blatantly and loses a lot of respect amongst magicians for it.

oeb

zuroph wrote: »

Penn and teller even more so, they use stage hands, but not stooges. and like HorganP said, chris angel, he uses stooges. very blatantly and loses a lot of respect amongst magicians for it.

And camera tricks :mad:

jill_valentine

To be honest, even if I knew for a fact that Criss Angel was an actual wizard who could really float around pulling stuff out of other stuff all the time, the Human Giant sketches about him would still make him too hilarious to take seriously.

EDIT:

Well. That, and all the other hilarious stuff Criss Angel has going on.

ziedth

liah wrote: »

How do you think he did it..?

I can't say 100% for sure but say he wrote down the Village where the memory took place and who we were playin g(it was a football Mach) on a A1 card while "reading me" but looking back he folded the scrap of paper that I wrote the memory on again after I had folded it and handed it to him. Also, he gave me the A1 card to bring home (delighted with that. But not the paper. In a nutshell my theory is that folding the paper somehow made him able to see it.

It was a great trick all the same and I honestly think that if he did use stooges we would hear. I'd say he is just a good magician masked under being one of the great showmen.

ziedth

zuroph wrote: »

there is some great derren brown discussion groups out there and im fairly sure i can explain any of his effects without using a stooge. .

Did you ever see him do that trick where he gets people to write down questions into a black envelope and put into a jug and he can work out from talking to them what it is and what the answer to the question is?

I think it was on one of the live shows but say this woman he only asked her name and he knew she asked should I move to Austrila? It was deadly and I literally got nothing to explain it outside of some crappy slight of hand/ see through the paper trick.

zuroph

i have a few ways of achieving that in mind, yeah. I'd have to see his performance to see what i thought he did, but i know a few ways I'd do it.

ziedth

I'll see can I dig it up tomorrow for ya. I'm usually good at at least spotting a rough idea how a trick is done that's why I love it so much when I haven't a clue.

swedeyhead

On the recent evening with Derren Brown on Channel 4 they had a documentary in which he talked about the "spirit cabinet" - where a person goes into the cabinet, the curtain is drawn and various things happen (like tambourine rattling, accordian playing and things being thrown over the curtain).

They showed an earlier example of this where the participant came out of the cabinet shaking and visibily frightened.

Then DB said that he was so taken with this guy's persona and presence that he put him on the payroll as one of his backroom creative staff memebers.

I guess it's up to us to decide which came first - going into a cabinet alone and unseen behind a curtain, where seemingly preposterously impossible (without human intervention) things happen or being paid by Derren Brown.

zuroph

knowing how a spirit cabinet would work, I'd choose the former, no need to stooge it.

thebullkf

ziedth wrote: »

Did you ever see him do that trick where he gets people to write down questions into a black envelope and put into a jug and he can work out from talking to them what it is and what the answer to the question is?

I think it was on one of the live shows but say this woman he only asked her name and he knew she asked should I move to Austrila? It was deadly and I literally got nothing to explain it outside of some crappy slight of hand/ see through the paper trick.

FWIW : i did, you're right.
it was the live show, my brother and I went..... incredible gig.

i am sceptical,and always trying to second guess/figure it out {who isn't:p)
I wrotye my questions down,under my jacket,didn't even tell my brother...he did the same, we both went seperately to the bar,never once taking our eyes off the glass bowl we put them in...

Second half began--->> calls out me brother,having picked his envelope out... {our initials were on each envelope}

It was brilliant,and one othe best nights out i've ever had, pure theatre.

thebullkf

our envelopes were white also.

thebullkf

ziedth wrote: »

Just a note on this: I was called up on Stage for Derren Brown during his ENIGMA tour for a trick that at least 5 people after the show accused me of being a stooge (not in a angry way it must be said) and I can tell ya i'm not a stooge

same with my bro.... gas.

Voodu Child

wrote:

knowing how a spirit cabinet would work, I'd choose the former, no need to stooge it.

He did a stage version in Enigma where he did indeed use a stooge. Up to a point you can explain it without the use of a stooge, but unfortunately he does something towards the end that makes it a dead giveaway.

He also did a variation in his Seance show, but I didnt see that one.

zuroph

interesting, I'd be curious to see it.

Voodu Child

Its on youtube on the 4oD channel. The spirit cabinet is somewhere around 46 mins.

I noticed he also does a rigid catalepsy earlier on in the same show, there's no indication that the guy is a stooge but it'd be seriously dodgy if he wasn't. My opinion of Derren would go down a lot if I found out he was performing rigid catalepsy on randomers from the audience. I think it's banned actually.

horgan_p

Voodu - the rigid catalypsy has annoyed a lot of hypnotists in the uk.Have a look on the magic cafe.
It was indeed a rigid catelapsy (i'll spell it 3 more different ways before I'm done) , Keith Barry was photographed in the Star standing on top of a journalist balanced between 2 chairs.

zuroph

leanne moore was Keiths rigid. talked to her about it briefly, legit.

Voodu Child

horgan_p wrote: »

Keith Barry was photographed in the Star standing on top of a journalist balanced between 2 chairs.

What a twat.

horgan_p

I dont know the guy , but it was a silly thing to do. Theres plenty of better photo ops.