no party offers referendum?

tipptom

Why is this not even discussed that the most important decision in irish history is left to inda,while i think they know the irish people would defeat the politicians.We then could face down the eu from a position of strength and if they still insist on making us a gratful colony, give our alternatives with the permission of the irish people,that we go back to the punt and align ourselves with other countries as well as still trade in europe.My bet is europe would be scared sh*tless and roll over like a dog.

Reilly616

... A referendum on what?

NotorietyH

We do have a referendum, it's called the General Election.

View

tipptom wrote: »

Why is this not even discussed that the most important decision in irish history is left to inda,while i think they know the irish people would defeat the politicians.We then could face down the eu from a position of strength and if they still insist on making us a gratful colony, give our alternatives with the permission of the irish people,that we go back to the punt and align ourselves with other countries as well as still trade in europe.My bet is europe would be scared sh*tless and roll over like a dog.

You really think the electorate would vote for an immediate 19billion in cuts to the budget?

Because, be under no illusion that is what you would be voting for - we are borrowing that amount to "balance" our day-to-day spending (i.e. excluding the money being spent on the banks) in the budget. If we decide that the life-belt the rest of the EU/IMF have thrown us isn't good enough for us, then we either:
a) make 19billion in cuts right now, or,
b) we pay the markets a 50% premium on the rates that the EU/IMF are charging us (i.e. >9% Vs <6%).

And to set 19 billion in context, our "most expensive" government departments - health, social welfare and education - each have budgets around the 12-13 billion mark.

jimmycrackcorm

tipptom wrote: »

Why is this not even discussed that the most important decision in irish history is left to inda

Sorry, but what are India goign to decide for us?????

syklops

Reilly616 wrote: »

... A referendum on what?

I think he means the bailout.

To paraphrase Winston Churchill. the best argument against a referendum on the bailout is five minutes with the average voter.

Most people don't have a clue about what is really going on, and few people really know what would happen if Ireland defaulted, though I suspect our Tech and Pharma industries, which are really quite strong, would be obliterated. The last 3 companies I have worked for, 2 of them Fortune 500 companies had their Financial headquarters in Ireland. Were we to default they would leave in an instant, leaving thousands of people unemployed.

Intel have said they have made a longterm commitment to Ireland, but no-one has asked them if that includes us defaulting.

Google just bought a NAMA'ed building for 99 million. People think limerick is bad in the wake of Dell leaving. Imagine Dublin if the following companies left:

Google
Amazon
HP
Symantec
IBM
Microsoft
IONA
Norkom
Xilinx


So, to sum up, No.

tipptom

Reilly616 wrote: »

... A referendum on what?

On if the irish people should pay the money to the gamblers who speculated on our economy and lost and stupid money being thrown in to banks thats under criminal investigations,i didnt see them sharing their profits while they were winning and now the eu is acting as their bouncer looking for some idiots to pay for it,and as for the election, i dont see how a party being elected not for what it can do but because the other main party is so bad is any type of referendum.

syklops

The money to the gamblers as you call them, is gone. Even if we said, you cant have it, its already gone, and its not coming back. The EU?IMF bailout is to bailout Ireland because the tax take is less than expected due to the property crash. We need to cut 19 billion in spending, the money Europe gave us is to keep us running until we have made the cuts needed.

ilovesleep

syklops wrote: »

The money to the gamblers as you call them, is gone. Even if we said, you cant have it, its already gone, and its not coming back. The EU?IMF bailout is to bailout Ireland because the tax take is less than expected due to the property crash. We need to cut 19 billion in spending, the money Europe gave us is to keep us running until we have made the cuts needed.

Some of the money in the bailout package was for the failing banks.

ilovesleep

tipptom wrote: »

On if the irish people should pay the money to the gamblers who speculated on our economy and lost and stupid money being thrown in to banks thats under criminal investigations,i didnt see them sharing their profits while they were winning and now the eu is acting as their bouncer looking for some idiots to pay for it,and as for the election, i dont see how a party being elected not for what it can do but because the other main party is so bad is any type of referendum.

From my understanding, I really dont think we have any other choice but to go down the route that FF has lead us. FF has tied banking debt to sovereign debt. If/when we default it will be a sovereign default. It would be horrifically torturous for a very long time. Its too late for a bank default.

To make it worse, even after all the billions pumped into banks, it wont be enough and our banks will never be healthy. Google japanese zombie banks. Our banks are zombie banks.

tipptom

syklops wrote: »

The money to the gamblers as you call them, is gone. Even if we said, you cant have it, its already gone, and its not coming back. The EU?IMF bailout is to bailout Ireland because the tax take is less than expected due to the property crash. We need to cut 19 billion in spending, the money Europe gave us is to keep us running until we have made the cuts needed.

No,the money is not gone,you are talking about national debt,this debt can be managed just about from restructuring but not if we have to service the debt of your mates in europe,we destroy our economy.
As for churhill,he was told by the british electorate where to go with his ignorant views of the great unwashed.
The multi natinals will get their answer when this soverign debt smashes our economy and enda goes to the germans and french again, which they are waiting for, and tell us what to set our corporation tax at.

SafeSurfer

The parties contesting the general election have made their positions on the EU/IMF bailout.

The election will decide the Irish people's views on it.

There is no need for a seperate referendum on the matter.

View

ilovesleep wrote: »

Some of the money in the bailout package was for the failing banks.

That's correct. The money from the NPRF that is going into the banks with - I think - possibly a small amount from the IMF.

The money from the rest of the EU is going to fund our day-to-day borrowing habit so that we aren't forced to try and borrow this money from "the markets" at much higher rates than the EU/IMF charge us. In other words, the rest of the EU - including states poorer than us - are borrowing money to subsidise our borrowing costs so we don't have to implement those horrific cuts we'd face otherwise.

In addition, they have also earmarked a large amount of money as an "overdraft facility" for us, so that - should we have yet again got our sums on the banks wrong - we have a back-up in place.

As a state, we are in the financial equivalent of a "methadone clinic" with a sizable chunk of the population of the opinion we should check-out and take our chances trying to get "heroin" (i.e. more debt) from the dealers (i.e. the financial markets) on the streets. This, despite the fact we are broke and those dealers are not exactly renowned for running charitable organisations.

tipptom

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The parties contesting the general election have made their positions on the EU/IMF bailout.

The election will decide the Irish people's views on it.

There is no need for a seperate referendum on the matter.

All the parties positions on this are virtually the same,so the people cannot give their view on it.This is of utmost national importance and involves the survival of our state so the people that pay should be the people that have a say.This should be put directly to the people and the parties and econimests lay out fully what the repurcussions are to their actions on the vote and no more this claptrap that the people dont understand,I think the people understand perfectly and that is why they are afraid of referendum,i think Barrossa would change his tough guy stance if he heard "referendum" being muted.

KIERAN1

tipptom wrote: »

All the parties positions on this are virtually the same,so the people cannot give their view on it.This is of utmost national importance and involves the survival of our state so the people that pay should be the people that have a say.This should be put directly to the people and the parties and econimests lay out fully what the repurcussions are to their actions on the vote and no more this claptrap that the people dont understand,I think the people understand perfectly and that is why they are afraid of referendum,i think Barrossa would change his tough guy stance if he heard "referendum" being muted.

Sinn Fein do want to put this to the Irish people, however the main political parties, don't trust us to give them the vote they'd like, so never going to happen.

ilovesleep

@View
Call me mad, but I think I would prefer to get those cuts done in one full clean swoop, on one condition though if the banks were healthy so that they could lend to businesses.

astrofool

KIERAN1 wrote: »

Sinn Fein do want to put this to the Irish people, however the main political parties, don't trust us to give them the vote they'd like, so never going to happen.

SF Referendum (tick one option):

Do you accept the EU/IMF bailout to plug the 19bn hole in our budget

Do you want to raise taxes by 50% to cover the gap?

Do you want to cut all govt costs (SW, hospitals, schools etc.) by 50% to cover the gap?

Do you want to join us and a few mates on a bank raid of fort knox?

KIERAN1

astrofool wrote: »

SF Referendum (tick one option):

Do you accept the EU/IMF bailout to plug the 19bn hole in our budget

Do you want to raise taxes by 50% to cover the gap?

Do you want to cut all govt costs (SW, hospitals, schools etc.) by 50% to cover the gap?

Do you want to join us and a few mates on a bank raid of fort knox?

The reason why Ireland could not borrow from the money markets, is FF gave a commitment in 2010 to pay all banking debt back. Lose it, you will be loaned again.

The gaping hole in our budget is from overspenting by the FF too/ double foolishness.

All political parties, offer unrealistic presents before an election, including Sinn Fein. But the fact your overlooking is the Irish taxpayer is paying a double debt here/ a banking debt and a sovereign debt both in big loan of 90 billion...

The Irish taxpayer can afford to fix the sovereign debt crisis, though cuts in expenditure will be required, the banking debts amount to 170 billion to 200 billion, come on how can we afford to pay this?

Aishae

im not talking about the specifics of the bailout here -- but a lot of people ive spoken to about it feel its too much (which it is) to pay back (could be) so - they say - why should we? lets just keep deferring.
which is why im against a referendum on the subject - most people just dont understand what exactly caused the necessity of the bailout and what would happen to us should we simply decide - already - to defer

astrofool

KIERAN1 wrote: »

The reason why Ireland could not borrow from the money markets, is FF gave a commitment in 2010 to pay all banking debt back. Lose it, you will be loaned again.

The gaping hole in our budget is from overspenting by the FF too/ double foolishness.

All political parties, offer unrealistic presents before an election, including Sinn Fein. But the fact your overlooking is the Irish taxpayer is paying a double debt here/ a banking debt and a sovereign debt both in big loan of 90 billion...

The Irish taxpayer can afford to fix the sovereign debt crisis, though cuts in expenditure will be required, the banking debts amount to 170 billion to 200 billion, come on how can we afford to pay this?

But SF want to increase spending by reversing all the recent cuts? At least you admit SF are being unrealistic, I wonder would Pearse Doherty agree with you.

SF want to "burn the bondholders" without realising this still leaves sizable debts and problems with the banks, withdraw the guarantee, and the banks collapse as all depositors withdraw.

Anyway, as you say, their solution is "unrealistic" and having a referendum is only viable if people have a realistic choice.

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KIERAN1 wrote: »

The reason why Ireland could not borrow from the money markets, is FF gave a commitment in 2010 to pay all banking debt back. Lose it, you will be loaned again.

Yup and they have been busy paying this debt back - by having the state borrow to do so. In other words, they have turned a huge chunk of what was initially private debt into sovereign debt.

As such, we are a bit like a chef who cracks a couple of eggs to make an omelette - even if we change our minds at this stage, we are not going to be able to "uncrack" the eggs and boil them instead. We could, however, manage to make a real mess out of our (potential) omelette by trying to do so though.

Then again, that presumes we are capable of either boiling an egg or making an omelette and it is hard to be confident of our abilities in this area at the moment.

View

ilovesleep wrote: »

@View
Call me mad, but I think I would prefer to get those cuts done in one full clean swoop, on one condition though if the banks were healthy so that they could lend to businesses.

That's (more or less) the libertarian option - there would be no illusion of what a real mess we have made of things were we to do so...