Applying for commercial planning retention

lisasimps

Hiya,

We opened out business 6 months ago in an industrial estate, naively without planning permission, and the council have been on to us.

We now have to apply for a retention and we're clueless.

Obviously with our business only open 6 months too, money is very tight and we don't have any rainy day money.

Im going to get on to planning consultants this morning, but just looking for some moral support here.

Any rough idea how much its all going to cost?

Are we more likely/less likely/ indifferently going to get permission seeing as we are already open?

With the state of the economy, and the fact that we're creating employment, would the council really shut us down?

Thanks for your time,
Lisa

Poor Uncle Tom

If you are trading from an area that is zoned for such, then providing you meet all the criteria and are in compliance with the CDP for that area, parking, building regulations, etc, then it may be ok.

Local Authority Fees:
Planning retention - €240 per building or €10.80 per sq m whichever is greater.
Fire Safety Certificate - €2.90 per sq m.
Disabled Access Certificate - €800.

Then there is going to be contributions and of course professional fees.

archtech

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

If you are trading from an area that is zoned for such, then providing you meet all the criteria and are in compliance with the CDP for that area, parking, building regulations, etc, then it may be ok.

Local Authority Fees:
Planning retention - €240 per building or €10.80 per sq m whichever is greater.
Fire Safety Certificate - €2.90 per sq m.
Disabled Access Certificate - €800.

Then there is going to be contributions and of course professional fees.

Depending on the local authority, some may insist on you applying for a regularisation Fire Safety Certificate at a cost of €500 or €11.80/sq.m which ever is greater.

lisasimps

10.80 per sq m???????????????????????????

The building is around 300sq m!!!!!!!! There is NO WAY we're going to be able to afford this.

Poor Uncle Tom

Sorry, we're not here to frighten you, talk to your planning consultants who should be able to give you on the spot advice but retention permission fees are approximately 3 times as expensive as normal planning fees.

rayjdav

Lisa,

Not meaning to stoke the fire here but, did your solicitor or other professional not advise you prior to signing any purchase/lease contracts on this?

If on a lease, is there a possibility of the landlord not footing the bill in return for your tennancy?

As PUT said, not here to frighten but the end line is that if the use does not conform, you will have to formalise the situation:eek:

lisasimps

Im pretty sure that there is a condition in out lease that if planning permission isn't granted that I can terminate the lease contract, but I can't afford to set up elsewhere.

Our solicitor did mention about getting planning permission in passing when the lease was almost signed and we said we didnt think we needed it. He said not to worry, that we can always apply for a retention if we get caught out.

Got onto a few planning consultants, two came back to me, one with a rough quote of 2500, this is not looking good!

My own stupidity I know!

Any idea if the enterprise board will help out at all? They haven't so far!

rayjdav

I assume it was the Enforcement section of the council who contacted you? Have you contacted them?

Do this first, arrange a meeting and see exactly what the situation is and what exactly you need to do to rectify and formalise the situation, before you start spending even more money you dont have. Explain your situation to them. They dont bite:D There maybe a less painful way of fixing this. (I say less because, no matter what way it's done, it will be painful €€€).

It might be worth the money if you got a local Arch/AT on board, even for this process, to attend the said meetings as, if you are clueless about the proceedures involved, it can/will scare the living crap out of you. At least they can translate into simple english what needs to be done and best approach to resolving it.

No6

What do you need retention for, if tis a change of use of the building then you are looking at quite a large fee but if its a minor matter say retention of signage it should be a lot less. Can you clarify a bit more please.

sydthebeat

basically, formalising planning and building regs on a "per sq m" basis is expensive.

As has already been said, planning retention is €10.80 per sq m
regularisation fee for a fire Certificate is €11.60 per sq m
disabled access fee is €800

you say the building is around 300 sq m. Therefore you could be looking at statutory fees alone of approximately €7500 (assuming theres no ancillary fees for signage, storage, etc)

on top of that you are looking at professional fees to prepare these applications.

and on top of that you could very well be looking at development charges from your local authority. these are also applied on a per sq m basis, and may also include not only your building area but your site area as well, as storage space.

these can be in the range of €35-45 per sq m for the building !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you need to consult with a professional to figure out:
1. is planning needed?
2. what exactly is planing required for?? is it planning for change of use?
3. what fees are involved.

i think you probably know now that you should have done all this prior to leasing this building.

when you have all this information together, then arrange a meeting with a senior planner to discuss the best way forward.

lisasimps

No6 wrote: »

What do you need retention for, if tis a change of use of the building then you are looking at quite a large fee but if its a minor matter say retention of signage it should be a lot less. Can you clarify a bit more please.

What's a retention of signage? Ive been onto the council a few times regarding this, letters back and forth, and phone calls and they've told me that I'll have to apply for a retention for a change of use.

Thanks Sydthebeat. If the cost is going to be anywhere near that high I assume i'm best off using the get out clause and attempting to open up again in a different property (obviously getting planning in advance this time )

sydthebeat

lisasimps wrote: »

What's a retention of signage? Ive been onto the council a few times regarding this, letters back and forth, and phone calls and they've told me that I'll have to apply for a retention for a change of use.

Thanks Sydthebeat. If the cost is going to be anywhere near that high I assume i'm best off using the get out clause and attempting to open up again in a different property (obviously getting planning in advance this time )

if you have to apply for retention of "change of use" then the council have determined that your current use of the building is not similar to what the previous use was, or what was actually granted permission there. for example permission could be granted for an industrial storage unit, but someone might open up a kids play centre in it. Two completely different changes of use.

The next step for you is to sort out exactly what the issue is any waht it would cost you to regularise it. The only way of doing this is to consult with a professional (architect / technician etc)

when you have the full picture you can then make choices as to the next step.

Mellor

lisasimps wrote: »

Our solicitor did mention about getting planning permission in passing when the lease was almost signed and we said we didnt think we needed it. He said not to worry, that we can always apply for a retention if we get caught out.

That's very poor legal advice from him tbh.

lisasimps wrote: »

What's a retention of signage? Ive been onto the council a few times regarding this, letters back and forth, and phone calls and they've told me that I'll have to apply for a retention for a change of use.

Thanks Sydthebeat. If the cost is going to be anywhere near that high I assume i'm best off using the get out clause and attempting to open up again in a different property (obviously getting planning in advance this time )

I'm a bit surprised that its change of use, seeing as it was already as industrial estate. Obviously its common with such a wide range permitted, just not ideal for you.

lisasimps

I was on to a number of planning consultants, and the figures they were all quoting me were massive, but then I got a call from one consultant who was saying that there are ways around all the big costs (applying for a retention was looking at over 3k, and a fee for getting the permission was around 13k!) so im planning on getting back on to him.

It seems like a lot of work and money when in my mind i could simply say "hey, mr. council, this is what Im doing, am i allowed?" then a yes or a no!!!

sydthebeat

lisasimps wrote: »

I was on to a number of planning consultants, and the figures they were all quoting me were massive, but then I got a call from one consultant who was saying that there are ways around all the big costs (applying for a retention was looking at over 3k, and a fee for getting the permission was around 13k!) so im planning on getting back on to him.

It seems like a lot of work and money when in my mind i could simply say "hey, mr. council, this is what Im doing, am i allowed?" then a yes or a no!!!

if only life was that simple

Builderfromhell

lisasimps wrote: »

I was on to a number of planning consultants, and the figures they were all quoting me were massive, but then I got a call from one consultant who was saying that there are ways around all the big costs (applying for a retention was looking at over 3k, and a fee for getting the permission was around 13k!) so im planning on getting back on to him.

It seems like a lot of work and money when in my mind i could simply say "hey, mr. council, this is what Im doing, am i allowed?" then a yes or a no!!!

Am I correct in thinking that the professional fees are 13k/ If so then I would suggest that is too much.

lisasimps

No, i've been quoted 1100k + vat to 3000+vat for professional fees.
The 13k would be the development contributions

sydthebeat

lisasimps wrote: »

No, i've been quoted 1100k + vat to 3000+vat for professional fees.
The 13k would be the development contributions

theres 3 "fees" to look at:

1. professional fees to prepare the applications

2. council application fees (planning, fire etc)

3. development contributions required on grant of permission.


as your consultant for a break down of each. the development contributions may be tricky to work out without direct communications wit the local authority.

lisasimps

Do you think I should wait to see what local politicians are elected and see if they can help before I commit to anyone?

sydthebeat

lisasimps wrote: »

Do you think I should wait to see what local politicians are elected and see if they can help before I commit to anyone?

no.

we'll know the election results by next monday.

youll still be working on this in a months time.

arrange a preplanning meeting with your local planner and go in with your consultant.

lisasimps

sydthebeat wrote: »

no.

we'll know the election results by next monday.

youll still be working on this in a months time.

arrange a preplanning meeting with your local planner and go in with your consultant.

Will do!
Just trying to decide on who to go with now!