Wrongly interpreted/accused

rebel10

Hi, just wondering if fellow teachers are feeling the same as me?

Yesterday, while on my lunch, I was down getting soup in a local shop, when i bumped into some of my LCA students. Usually, in our school, students aren't allowed to leave the school at lunch time without written consent. I knew though that these students may have an early finish on a Friday.
I asked them, in a friendly way "Ye finished for the day lads?" They said yes, to which i said, "God, the life of an LCA student!" Obviously meaning they were lucky to be finished early. One of them turned to me and said, "I find that very offensive." I told him that i had only meant that they were lucky. But I was left worried that he thought i meant something else.

This has happened to me more recently in the last few years. I might say something to a student, they pick it up the wrong way, and then i am left worried.

One teacher in my school recently got a phone call from a parent saying she was worried because her son thought that the teacher was bullying him. Turns out the reason why he thought this was because he wasn't getting the same high marks in his tests as he was in other subjects.

I suppose, what i am trying to ask is if teachers feel like they have to constantly watch themselves in case what they say is picked up wrongly and you could be accused of something.

peanuthead

Well, personally there are things I would and wouldn't say, and in my opinion, "Ah, the life of an LCA student " is definitely something I wouldn't say.

Now I'm not suggesting that it is as offensive as the student is claiming. I'm just saying that personally, I wouldn't have said it. I would have said, if anything at all "Ah, you're so lucky! I'm here until 5!"

I am very sensitive to students, probably too much so to be honest. But I would rather be that way than constantly in fear of whether there are complaints coming my way.

It stems from me having the majority of my experience in a school where the children had very low self-esteem and are very vulnerable.

However, if you didn't say it or mean it in an offensive way, don't worry about it. And don't give it any attention either as this will blow the whole thing way out of proportion.

To be honest, you're on mid-term now, no? That will be long forgotten by the time you get back

rebel10

Yes, i am definately over thinking it. I have been teaching the same boy for 6 years, and in that time we have had great banter back and forth. Thinking back on it now, i wish i had said nothing, but isin't that always the way. Suppose, in teaching, when you speak to so many people on a daily basis, you are bound to say something that could be misinterpreted at some stage.

rainbowtrout

I don't think it's anything to worry about, yer man was just being overly sensitive. I think most people in all walks of life whether it be in the education system or at work love the idea of an early finish on a Friday. The student probably had his nose in a knot about something else and took it out on you.

If I had that conversation with your students and they told me they were finished early I know my gut reaction to that would have been to reply 'Isn't it well for ye?!'

rebel10

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I don't think it's anything to worry about, yer man was just being overly sensitive. I think most people in all walks of life whether it be in the education system or at work love the idea of an early finish on a Friday. The student probably had his nose in a knot about something else and took it out on you.

If I had that conversation with your students and they told me they were finished early I know my get reaction to that would have been to reply 'Isn't it well for ye?!'

Thanks. I just wish i had left out the word "LCA" out of the sentence, then the whole thing would have had another meaning, the intended meaning!

Rosita

rebel10 wrote: »

Hi, just wondering if fellow teachers are feeling the same as me?

Yesterday, while on my lunch, I was down getting soup in a local shop, when i bumped into some of my LCA students. Usually, in our school, students aren't allowed to leave the school at lunch time without written consent. I knew though that these students may have an early finish on a Friday.
I asked them, in a friendly way "Ye finished for the day lads?" They said yes, to which i said, "God, the life of an LCA student!" Obviously meaning they were lucky to be finished early. One of them turned to me and said, "I find that very offensive." I told him that i had only meant that they were lucky. But I was left worried that he thought i meant something else.

This has happened to me more recently in the last few years. I might say something to a student, they pick it up the wrong way, and then i am left worried.

One teacher in my school recently got a phone call from a parent saying she was worried because her son thought that the teacher was bullying him. Turns out the reason why he thought this was because he wasn't getting the same high marks in his tests as he was in other subjects.

I suppose, what i am trying to ask is if teachers feel like they have to constantly watch themselves in case what they say is picked up wrongly and you could be accused of something.

That incident as decribed is about as harmless a bit of banter as is imaginable and I think anyone that would find it offensive would need to get a life. That said, second-level students are a cross-section of society and you'll always get the people who'd find something offensive in an empty room.

It reminds me of a case in my school where a teacher mentioned in another class (when there was inter-student banter about a student missing a few days) that he had met a student in another class for the first time in the year (this was about November) that day. The same student has shown up only about six times all year. The student was not mentioned by name at all, yet the mother rang in to complain when the comment was inevitably passed on. Any rational parent would be embarrassed that their child would never show up but instead there was hyper-sensitivity on the issue.

Harmless banter can lead to more hassle than it's worth. Especially with badly-behaved students who are often ultra-defensive.

rebel10

Well, I suppose i shouldn't be worried, and at the end of the day it was a harmless comment, but what i am worried about is a possible phone call to the principal. Now, I know he would dismiss it straight away realising what i had obviously meant, but he would have to pull me up on it. I feel ill thinking about that.
One of my colleagues had a parent ring the principal complaining because she had called a group of lively 2nd years "daft." In the heat of the moment, with 14 year olds screaming the roof down in a practical subject, I could possibly have said alot worse.
I just keep having to watch everything i say to the students, in case my opinions/teaching/comments offend.

Sibylla

It was a harmless comment, There was obviously no offence meant. I sincerely doubt they will contact the principal, I would try to forget about it If I were you.

rebel10

Sibylla wrote: »

It was a harmless comment, There was obviously no offence meant. I sincerely doubt they will contact the principal, I would try to forget about it If I were you.

They won't i would imagine, but the principal has been called for similar things. I will forget about it though. Honestly, i'm just glad some of you think it was a comment that could be made in jest and not something i should be bothered about. Thanks.

kermitpwee

Don't worry and enjoy your break. No harm in it at all. Im guessing the LCA students finish earlier than the other students?

claire h

rebel10 wrote: »

I asked them, in a friendly way "Ye finished for the day lads?" They said yes, to which i said, "God, the life of an LCA student!" Obviously meaning they were lucky to be finished early. One of them turned to me and said, "I find that very offensive." I told him that i had only meant that they were lucky. But I was left worried that he thought i meant something else.

You clarified it to him at the time, that should be enough. That being said, if it's something that's an ongoing concern of yours, either watch what you say a bit more carefully, or consciously try to relax about it.

Other teachers in your school would have a better idea of what you'd be safe saying to a particular bunch of your students - it's worth discussing it with them if you can.

rebel10

kermitpwee wrote: »

Don't worry and enjoy your break. No harm in it at all. Im guessing the LCA students finish earlier than the other students?

Yes, they have a day off on a wednesday to work and they have a half day on a Friday. Thanks, enjoy your break too.

rebel10

claire h wrote: »

You clarified it to him at the time, that should be enough. That being said, if it's something that's an ongoing concern of yours, either watch what you say a bit more carefully, or consciously try to relax about it.

Other teachers in your school would have a better idea of what you'd be safe saying to a particular bunch of your students - it's worth discussing it with them if you can.

Honestly, after 7 years of teaching, i thought i would know better, but anyway, these things happen. In other walks of life, you can say these things without batting and eyelid, but I just find in teaching you are constantly on guard, even moreso in the last few years. Students have become very quick to pick you up on things you have said, which i suppose is a good thing, unless they are just looking for trouble.

I'm not going to dwell on it anymore. I have my break now. Think its just a sign that work was taking over all my thoughts once again and i needed a break.
Again thanks everyone.

mrboswell

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I don't think it's anything to worry about, yer man was just being overly sensitive.

These things happen. Society is evolving so perceptions are changing too.

Its all very subjective as to how people view a situation.

The point is you said something that offended the student. He/she pointed it out to you and you won't make that mistake again.

Learn from it, forget about it and move on.

doc_17

Don't worry one litle bit about it. If the student brings it up to the principal or anyone else then surely they will have the brains to completely ignore the complaint.

When did we get into this situation when we can't have a bit of banter with kids?

Wonder how that LCA student would do with that Tiger Mother in charge of him! She'd sort him out!

Delphi91

Any student who took offence at a comment like that seriously needs to get a life!

spurious

Delphi91 wrote: »

Any student who took offence at a comment like that seriously needs to get a life!

In fairness, many standard LC students and teachers have a very odd perception of the LCA. Some think they have the right without knowing anything whatsoever about the course to make disparaging comments about it.

I'd be royally pissed at a colleague who made such a remark to an LCA student. I work alongside teachers and students who would not pass the LCA, no matter how many degrees or points they have, because they do not have many of the qualities assessed in the LCA - yet they think they can make 'amusing' remarks about it.

I can appreciate the OP meant no harm in the comment and we all have said things we immediately regretted, but that doesn't lessen the impact the remark could have had (but hopefully didn't).

kermitpwee

spurious wrote: »

I work alongside teachers who would not pass the LCA, no matter how many degrees or points they have, because they do not have many of the qualities assessed in the LCA

I am amazed at you for this comment I can only assume that you have no idea what LCA is about. It is total bunkum that any qualified teacher would not have the skill set to pass the LCA course if they attended the course over its two year cycle. In our school the weakest of students many with very poor communication and presentation skills have passed the LCA course easily.

I can only hope that you retract what you have said, perhaps you made your reply in haste. Failing this I will in future find it very difficult to give any credibility to any information you provide on this forum.

spurious

kermitpwee wrote: »

I am amazed at you for this comment I can only assume that you have no idea what LCA is about. It is total bunkum that any qualified teacher would not have the skill set to pass the LCA course if they attended the course over its two year cycle. In our school the weakest of students many with very poor communication and presentation skills have passed the LCA course easily.

I can only hope that you retract what you have said, perhaps you made your reply in haste. Failing this I will in future find it very difficult to give any credibility to any information you provide on this forum.

It's the 90% attendance some of my colleagues would not pass on. It's what would hit most of our standard LC students too.

Rosita

spurious wrote: »

In fairness, many standard LC students and teachers have a very odd perception of the LCA. Some think they have the right without knowing anything whatsoever about the course to make disparaging comments about it.

I'd be royally pissed at a colleague who made such a remark to an LCA student. I work alongside teachers and students who would not pass the LCA, no matter how many degrees or points they have, because they do not have many of the qualities assessed in the LCA - yet they think they can make 'amusing' remarks about it.

I can appreciate the OP meant no harm in the comment and we all have said things we immediately regretted, but that doesn't lessen the impact the remark could have had (but hopefully didn't).

It might be no harm to recall the OP's actual account of the incident:

I asked them, in a friendly way "Ye finished for the day lads?" They said yes, to which i said, "God, the life of an LCA student!" Obviously meaning they were lucky to be finished early.

There's no reference there to the LCA course per se. The tone and context is fairly clear except for someone who is looking to take offence as this student seems to have been.

As it happens I often have similar banter with Transition Year students I teach when I see them around the school doing different things outside of the classroom. No inference has yet been drawn by them that I consider the TY course not worthy because I know they enjoy a bit of freedom.

It could be argued that if people aregenuinely secure about the course they are pursuing they should have no reason to be offended.

I should stress that I know nothing about the LCA so am not commenting one way or t'other on that - merely trying to understand if there is anything objectively offensive in a comment about 'the life of an LCA student'.

kermitpwee

spurious wrote: »

It's the 90% attendance some of my colleagues would not pass on. It's what would hit most of our standard LC students too.

Glad thats clarified, I thought you might have lost your marbles originally!

rebel10

spurious wrote: »

In fairness, many standard LC students and teachers have a very odd perception of the LCA. Some think they have the right without knowing anything whatsoever about the course to make disparaging comments about it.

I'd be royally pissed at a colleague who made such a remark to an LCA student. I work alongside teachers and students who would not pass the LCA, no matter how many degrees or points they have, because they do not have many of the qualities assessed in the LCA - yet they think they can make 'amusing' remarks about it.

I can appreciate the OP meant no harm in the comment and we all have said things we immediately regretted, but that doesn't lessen the impact the remark could have had (but hopefully didn't).

Sorry, op here, I think you may have misinterpreted what I said. I would have said the same thing to T.Y.'s if i had seen them finished early (now, thinking about it, I hope I never say anything at all!). I also teach L.C.A students. I wasn't trying to suggest anything by my comment other than I was jealous of them having a half day.

The 90% attendance you were suggesting many of us teachers would fail on is rubbish. Perhaps in your school, absenteeism among the staff is a problem, but not in mine. In fact, in my 7 years of teaching I have rang in sick once, and that was because of my town being flooded last year, and many of my co-workers would be similar. Perhaps you feel aggrieved on behalf of your L.C.A. students because of others opinions of them, but that certainly wasn't what I was trying to suggest in my comment. I have huge respect for my students, particularly the L.C.A class, as many of them have had to deal with issues in their young lives that I will never have to encounter. I'm sorry if my comment offended you, once more, but genuinely, I made it in passing, without thinking, I am only human.

kermitpwee

Rebel10 from the moment I read your first post I felt for you, I will address this in my last paragraph.

On to the topic you posted, 99% of teachers would not regard what you said was in anyway negative. Students can be more sensitive as they are younger so I would say 85% of the student cohort would see nothing wrong either.

What do you do about the 1% of teachers and 15% of students? You ignore them and you do not let them influence your banter with students. In my opinion it would be worse if you were to have a very controlled stereotypical teacher student conversation which showed no spontaneity or personality with them. Of course I will qualify this by saying there is a line that must never be crossed. You did not cross this line, you are making an assumption that the students may have percieved you as crossing the line, this of course is something totally different and also outside your control so don't worry about it please!

Now on to why I felt for you initially. I felt for you as it was obvious that you were worried for your students more than yourself. You are indicative of the teachers out there who care about doing their jobs and also the welfare of their students. Do not feel bad. I would advise in future to forget about these trivial matters promptly or you will find yourself getting stressed and it will drive you round the bend!

Relax my dear.

2011abc

I am 100% on the side of the original poster here but alas in our imperfect world there are 101 ways that nasty , cynical people-parents,kids,staff etc can twist this and with an unsupportive or just plain stupid principal you can end up in hot water .Of course the "LCA" bit might be construed to be insensitive ,as might the bit about the students having an easy life IF you were ultra thin skinned.You can do 99 things out of 100 right in a week and you will be crucified on that last one.They are trying to turn us into robots(even down to the same slacks and shirt/blouse in our place !) ,all doing exactly the same things at the same time like in the Uk .Iceland ,(FGs fave !)encourage individuality in teachers !You cant please everybody all the time .Far better you have a bit of rapport with the kids.I would be suspicious that the kid/s in question were trying to stir things up in a (semi) malicious way with their response.Kids and parents KNOW they can wreck the careers of teachers .Spineless principals will fire anyone who has a whiff of a 'perception' of 'hassle' to avoid having to confront bully parents and keep their own noses clean .The 'management ' culture which increasingly pervades many branches of irish public service (adopted from the UK) demands 'results' at all costs with little regard to the human cost in nervous breakdowns ,coronaries,high blood pressure,obesity (WHO has the time to exercise?!) etc etc This kind of incident is just a small example of what goes on .IF the kid's parent/s complain the teacher may recieve a slap on the wrists ,'talking to' etc instead of the parents being politely told no offence was intended and cop on .

Delphi91

2011abc wrote: »

...I would be suspicious that the kid/s in question were trying to stir things up in a (semi) malicious way with their response.Kids and parents KNOW they can wreck the careers of teachers .Spineless principals will fire anyone who has a whiff of a 'perception' of 'hassle' to avoid having to confront bully parents and keep their own noses clean...

Going back to my original reply and thinking a bit more about the incident, I think I'd be more concerned with the students attitude to the comment than any reason for the OP to feel that they may have been in the wrong. I think you may be right in your comment about some students "intentionally" mis-interpreting a comment like this.

I am curious however about your comment that "Spineless principals will fire anyone who has a whiff of a 'perception' of 'hassle' to avoid having to confront bully parents and keep their own noses clean". That is a huge generalisation. Do you have factual evidence that this has ever happened? A Principal is not in a position to fire anyone. He or she is not an employer. In Primary schools and voluntary secondary schools, it is the Dept of Education and Skills who are the employer. In a Vocational school, it is the VEC.

rebel10

I am going to go in on Monday when we return, I will ask him, at the end of class, with the boys he was with, if he had a chance to think about the comment i made towards him. I will explain to him what I meant by the comment and that obviously I didn't intend it to mean anything else. I will ask him if he is happy with this, and the other boys also. I am going to write down everything that was said, so that, if the principal does come to me about it, I will have everything recorded.
Thanks so much all of you for giving your insight. I am disappointed in myself, firstly because I should have known better than to put myself in that situation where it could come accross as offensive, and secondly, because I hope he doesn't feel like I meant anything by it.

Thanks all.

Rosita

Delphi91 wrote: »

A Principal is not in a position to fire anyone. He or she is not an employer. In Primary schools and voluntary secondary schools, it is the Dept of Education and Skills who are the employer. In a Vocational school, it is the VEC. The Principal cannot "fire" someone.

Are you sure about this? I'd have thought it was the Principal of a school who makes these decisions regarding employing or not employing teachers.

Delphi91

rebel10 wrote: »

I am going to go in on Monday when we return, I will ask him, at the end of class, with the boys he was with, if he had a chance to think about the comment i made towards him. I will explain to him what I meant by the comment and that obviously I didn't intend it to mean anything else. I will ask him if he is happy with this, and the other boys also. I am going to write down everything that was said, so that, if the principal does come to me about it, I will have everything recorded...

I'd write down the sequence of events myself, but I wouldn't do what you're suggesting above. "If" he reacted as he did just to wind you up, then he has won. If you go into the class and explain what you meant, he will know that he has got to you with his reaction, he has made you think about it. In fact, if you think about it, he has made you think about it - you've managed to get two pages of posts in here in two days. I guarantee you that he hasn't thought about the comment at all. He will look at your effort as the efforts of someone running scared. He'll do the same again in the future with some other comment. You'll then find yourself watching every last thing you say in case anything you say might be deemed offensive.

In your mind you made a comment which was not intended to offend. You know that and you are happy that that is the case. I'd leave it at that.

If a complaint is made to the Principal, then you can explain to him/her what happened, what you said, etc. I seriously doubt if that will happen.

Rosita

rebel10 wrote: »

I am going to go in on Monday when we return, I will ask him, at the end of class, with the boys he was with, if he had a chance to think about the comment i made towards him. I will explain to him what I meant by the comment and that obviously I didn't intend it to mean anything else. I will ask him if he is happy with this, and the other boys also. I am going to write down everything that was said, so that, if the principal does come to me about it, I will have everything recorded.
Thanks so much all of you for giving your insight. I am disappointed in myself, firstly because I should have known better than to put myself in that situation where it could come accross as offensive, and secondly, because I hope he doesn't feel like I meant anything by it.

Thanks all.

I would be inclined to let sleeping dogs lie if I were you. By all means record the original conversation but I'm not sure anything is to be gained by actively raising the issue especially with the passage of time since which might mean it is forgotten about. Anyway if you're explaining you're always on the backfoot irrespective or right or wrong. And can something be rationally explained to someone who takes offence irrationally in the first instance?

Delphi91

Rosita wrote: »

Are you sure about this? I'd have thought it was the Principal of a school who makes these decisions regarding employing or not employing teachers.

See Section 24.3 of the Education Act, 1998:

(3) A board shall appoint teachers and other staff, who are to be paid from monies provided by the Oireachtas, and may suspend or dismiss such teachers and staff, in accordance with procedures agreed from time to time between the Minister, the patron, recognised school management organisations and any recognised trade union and staff association representing teachers or other staff as appropriate.

The Principal is usually the secretary to the Board and as such is not a member of the Board. He/she may advise the board, but that's the limit of their involvement.

You may find that the Principal would have interviewed a candidate for a job, especially if it is a post that has to be filled urgently e.g. a teacher goes out on a medical cert and it is known that it will be for a number of months. There may not have been time to setup an interview board, put an ad in the paper, etc. The Principal can then go to the Board with a recommendation that a person be employed, but he/she does not, as such, employ the person.

rebel10

Thanks Delphi91 and Rosita. Yes, you are right, just let it go. I do get on with his parents, I meet them regularly enough because of the extra curricular activities i'm involved in. If the boy was to say something about the incident, I hope they would be able to use common sense and know me enough to know what was meant by the comment.
I will record everything myself, just in case, but yes, I will leave it be.

Thanks again

Rosita

Delphi91 wrote: »

See Section 24.3 of the Education Act, 1998:



The Principal is usually the secretary to the Board and as such is not a member of the Board. He/she may advise the board, but that's the limit of their involvement.

The Principal can then go to the Board with a recommendation that a person be employed, but he/she does not, as such, employ the person.

What percentage of the time would you say that a Board of Management goes against the recommendation of the Principal?

Certainly when I interviewed for my job there was just one member of the board of management on the interview board, as well as the Principal. I'd be surprised if the other seven members of the board of management (who didn't know me or the ground under me) would subsequently have been prepared to gainsay the Principal on any recommendation of my employment.

The question here is not so much the employer (which I presume to be the Board of Management and not the Dept of Ed.) but who has the veto on hiring and firing. I would be surprised if that is not de facto the Principal - through his 'advisory' role - barring exceptional cases. I'd have assumed that in most cases the board merely rubber-stamps his judgement.

kermitpwee

rebel10 wrote: »

Thanks Delphi91 and Rosita. Yes, you are right, just let it go. I do get on with his parents, I meet them regularly enough because of the extra curricular activities i'm involved in. If the boy was to say something about the incident, I hope they would be able to use common sense and know me enough to know what was meant by the comment.
I will record everything myself, just in case, but yes, I will leave it be.

Thanks again

This is the last I will post on this topic. Leave well alone for gods sake, the principal will think that you are a lunatic. Be strong and stand your ground, every day of the week I tell students that they are wrong and I am the judge of what is fair in class and I will not let students question me on my decisions. I have never had a complaint yet, I am strict but fair and have no problem with students having a laugh if something appropriate comes up but I am the boss. You shouldn't let students question your authority, I would imagine that you are finding your job stressful if you are explaining yourself to students all the time.

Now if you made the remark in a sarcastic way(we know you haven't) what should you do? You do nothing, yes nothing no apologies and you learn from the experience. On a subject like this you forget it or you will cause trouble for yourself. Have i ever apologised to a student? Yes I have but it was on a minor issue such a blaming the wrong person for talking! I didn't make a big ordeal about it and moved on swiftly.

I have supported you in this thread but I now will be cruel to be kind.

Forget it and never post an issue like this on a public forum where your LCA students could be members.

Good night!

Delphi91

Rosita wrote: »

...Certainly when I interviewed for my job there was just one member of the board of management on the interview board, as well as the Principal. I'd be surprised if the other seven members of the board of management (who didn't know me or the ground under me) would subsequently have been prepared to gainsay the Principal on any recommendation of my employment...

Of course they won't because they will have decided on the composition of the interview board and have delegated responsibility to the board to find the best candidate.

...the employer (which I presume to be the Board of Management and not the Dept of Ed.)...

It appears that the employer is the Patron of the school, who is deemed to be either: (1) the trustees, or (2) the board of governors or (3) in the absence of trustees or a board of governors, the owner of the school. In the VEC system, the employer is the VEC, of which the Board of Management is a sub-committee.

I'd have assumed that in most cases the board merely rubber-stamps his judgement.

Naturally they will. Common sense will prevail. If the Principal has been on the interview board, then the VEC/Board of Management will obviously be guided by his/her opinion. After all, once the interviews are over, the interview board walk away, the Principal has to work with the appointee on a day-to-day basis.

Fuinseog

rebel10 wrote: »

Hi, just wondering if fellow teachers are feeling the same as me?

Yesterday, while on my lunch, I was down getting soup in a local shop, when i bumped into some of my LCA students. Usually, in our school, students aren't allowed to leave the school at lunch time without written consent. I knew though that these students may have an early finish on a Friday.
I asked them, in a friendly way "Ye finished for the day lads?" They said yes, to which i said, "God, the life of an LCA student!" Obviously meaning they were lucky to be finished early. One of them turned to me and said, "I find that very offensive." I told him that i had only meant that they were lucky. But I was left worried that he thought i meant something else.

This has happened to me more recently in the last few years. I might say something to a student, they pick it up the wrong way, and then i am left worried.

One teacher in my school recently got a phone call from a parent saying she was worried because her son thought that the teacher was bullying him. Turns out the reason why he thought this was because he wasn't getting the same high marks in his tests as he was in other subjects.

I suppose, what i am trying to ask is if teachers feel like they have to constantly watch themselves in case what they say is picked up wrongly and you could be accused of something.

people think too much in this country and get up on their high horses at the drop of a hat. I would nod to them or greet them and leave it at that.

Fuinseog

Delphi91 wrote: »

Any student who took offence at a comment like that seriously needs to get a life!

as indeed should their parents who thrive on such incidents that can be construed to mean anything.