GUI approve DMD's

thegen

Just spotted this. As the article says it's going to generate some debate. I for one am delighted.http://bit.ly/hnTVn2

1916

Hooray, I guess the GPS Sticky is redundant now, or is it, do Clubs still have to pass a rule?

slumped

I'd imagine this is for GUI events only, clubs decide for themselves

It only allows DISTANCE measuring devices, so that rules out anything on an iPhone for example as iPhones have a compass built in.

Laser guides probably only approved piece of technology.

GPS systems tell you where you are, can't imagine these being allowed.

Time will tell.

Glencarraig

The Golf Buddy is a GPS device that only indicates distance to various points on the course. I cant see any reason why it couldnt be used.

Coinman

I for one agree with the approval of DMD's in GUI comps but am still a little confused........

This was passed:
Distance-Measuring Devices:
The Golfing Union Of Ireland adopts Specimen Local Rule Appendix 1 Part B Rule 9
(Rules of Golf 2008-2011) for all competitions including Championships.

This was defeated:
“The Golfing Union of Ireland allows the use of Measuring Devices during Inter Club
Matches played under its jurisdiction under the same conditions that apply to their use
under local rule in Club competitions”.

Are these 2 motions not one of the same given inter club (Barton Shield) is a GUI comp?
Does the new GUI rule override a local rule that does not allow DMD's?

Myksyk

slumped wrote: »

GPS systems tell you where you are, can't imagine these being allowed.

LoL. Do we not know where we are without GPS?
No idea what you're talking about here. Standard golf GPS units tell you distances to various parts of the course. Nothing else. They are of course allowable under this rule.

Jasonw

Coinman wrote: »

I for one agree with the approval of DMD's in GUI comps but am still a little confused........

This was passed:
Distance-Measuring Devices:
The Golfing Union Of Ireland adopts Specimen Local Rule Appendix 1 Part B Rule 9
(Rules of Golf 2008-2011) for all competitions including Championships.

This was defeated:
“The Golfing Union of Ireland allows the use of Measuring Devices during Inter Club
Matches played under its jurisdiction under the same conditions that apply to their use
under local rule in Club competitions”.

Are these 2 motions not one of the same given inter club (Barton Shield) is a GUI comp?
Does the new GUI rule override a local rule that does not allow DMD's?

Not the same. For example club X has not adopted a local rule allowing the use of DMDs then for all competitions EXCEPT GUI RUN competitions their use is illegal.

What they are talking about here are the likes of Interclub competitions and championships, Not your weekend singles competition or even your captains prizewhich are run by the club not the GUI.

Hope this clarifies things.

Unglika Norse

I reckon these yolks should be banned,

derra

Unglika Norse wrote: »

I reckon these yolks should be banned,

Don't be such a bad egg and tell us why you think they should be banned?

I'm considering getting one in the near future, maybe a GoPlanet one.
http://www.golfgpsireland.ie/

Borrowed one before and found it to be a great help seeing as i always struggle with club selection not judging what i have left alot of the time.
At same time that is part of the skill in playing golf to judge distances but it's there now and available to be used so why not take advantage i'm thinking .
Still have to hit the ball in the end.

Might have lads that don't have one asking every time what they have left in when they should'nt be asking or you giving that information anyway.

Gonna be divided opinion on these devices alright but think it was a matter of time before being allowed in for GUI comps.

On the other hand i see lads hitting draw or fade bias drivers and i think they should be banned as it ain't natural driving but that's me being a hypocrite in thinking of getting a DMD which is an an advantage in playing. Again, these things are allowed now in golf now and people are gonna take advantage no matter our opinion.

Do ya think golf in general is allowing too many things to make the game easier?

PhilipMarlowe

Isn't there still ambiguity though?
They are now allowed in inter-club competitions (in principle as part of the conditions) but how does that affect a match at a course that doesn't allow them?
I would assume that the lack of a local rule allowing them to be used at a particular course would still hold true?
Is it a case of "If they are allowed then they can now also be used in inter-club" or does this now "over rule" any lack of local rule and make them "always within the rules for inter-club"?

If they are not universally allowed then that's a mess ahead on the tracks

Unglika Norse

derra wrote: »

Don't be such a bad egg and tell us why you think they should be banned?

I'm considering getting one in the near future, maybe a GoPlanet one.
http://www.golfgpsireland.ie/

Borrowed one before and found it to be a great help seeing as i always struggle with club selection not judging what i have left alot of the time.
At same time that is part of the skill in playing golf to judge distances but it's there now and available to be used so why not take advantage i'm thinking .
Still have to hit the ball in the end.

Might have lads that don't have one asking every time what they have left in when they should'nt be asking or you giving that information anyway.

Gonna be divided opinion on these devices alright but think it was a matter of time before being allowed in for GUI comps.

On the other hand i see lads hitting draw or fade bias drivers and i think they should be banned as it ain't natural driving but that's me being a hypocrite in thinking of getting a DMD which is an an advantage in playing. Again, these things are allowed now in golf now and people are gonna take advantage no matter our opinion.

Do ya think golf in general is allowing too many things to make the game easier?

Youv'e already answered most of my objections, I also don't see the point in getting an architect to build into his design, things to fool your vision and test your perception of depth if this yolk takes it out of the equation by giving you the yardage. Everything might as well be played on a flat field. Ok you still have to hit the ball, but golf is meant to be a test of many skills. As you say there probably here to stay

Unglika Norse

Licksy wrote: »

Isn't there still ambiguity though?
They are now allowed in inter-club competitions (in principle as part of the conditions) but how does that affect a match at a course that doesn't allow them?
I would assume that the lack of a local rule allowing them to be used at a particular course would still hold true?
Is it a case of "If they are allowed then they can now also be used in inter-club" or does this now "over rule" any lack of local rule and make them "always within the rules for inter-club"?

If they are not universally allowed then that's a mess ahead on the tracks

Nothing new with the GUI making a hames of things

The_Architect

Unglika Norse wrote: »

Youv'e already answered most of my objections, I also don't see the point in getting an architect to build into his design, things to fool your vision and test your perception of depth if this yolk takes it out of the equation by giving you the yardage. Everything might as well be played on a flat field. Ok you still have to hit the ball, but golf is meant to be a test of many skills. As you say there probably here to stay

Sometimes I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall. On those occasions, responses like this keep me going.

Glencarraig

Ok lads. I have fired off an email to the GUI on this, will update when they reply.

AGC

Licksy wrote: »

Isn't there still ambiguity though?
They are now allowed in inter-club competitions (in principle as part of the conditions) but how does that affect a match at a course that doesn't allow them?
I would assume that the lack of a local rule allowing them to be used at a particular course would still hold true?
Is it a case of "If they are allowed then they can now also be used in inter-club" or does this now "over rule" any lack of local rule and make them "always within the rules for inter-club"?

If they are not universally allowed then that's a mess ahead on the tracks

If it is Senior Cup, Barton Sheild etc that is over a weekend the course has been giving to the GUI so it is under their rules Not sure

For home and away GUI events like Mixed Froresomes it might cause confusion.

Hopefully the email will clarify it.

thegen

Unglika Norse wrote: »

Youv'e already answered most of my objections, I also don't see the point in getting an architect to build into his design, things to fool your vision and test your perception of depth if this yolk takes it out of the equation by giving you the yardage. Everything might as well be played on a flat field. Ok you still have to hit the ball, but golf is meant to be a test of many skills. As you say there probably here to stay

Dont really agree with this one. Most clubs have yardage markers and quite a few have pin position of the day posted or handed to you on a slip of paper. All it takes is a little pacing to give you your yardage. DMD's will only assist in doing away with the most annoying of things on a golf course, slow play.

I have purchased a Bushnell Rangefinder and I have played several rounds where I will when time permits me gauge it against what the club has put in place with yardage markers etc. The results are very, very similar. The only difference is the pacing to and fro to get my yardage from markers.

Everyone is going to have a different take on this, but going by some reckoning we should do away with yardage markers, pin placement info etc. Sure why not do away with the pin and guess where the hole is from the fairway;);)

Myksyk

Unglika Norse wrote: »

Youv'e already answered most of my objections, I also don't see the point in getting an architect to build into his design, things to fool your vision and test your perception of depth if this yolk takes it out of the equation by giving you the yardage. Everything might as well be played on a flat field. Ok you still have to hit the ball, but golf is meant to be a test of many skills. As you say there probably here to stay

Don't agree at all. Your post betrays a misunderstanding of how GPS units work. GPS units only tell you the 2-dimensional yardage (as if the ground between unit and flag IS flat) and therefore take nothing out of the equation.

I can be told by the unit that I am 150m to centre of green. However, I can look around and see that I am at least 20m above the flag ... the unit does not take this into consideration, I have to do that myself. I have to guess what difference that will make to the shot in terms of distance as I always have had to. I will also have to take slope, wind and temperature into account as well as how warmed up I am personally. I also have to guess how far the flag is on as this is not provided by courses typically. One day this shot could be a 5 iron and another it could be an 8 iron. Knowing its 150m is only the most basic of information.

Secondly, the argument here is presented as if this information is not already readily available to everyone who plays golf. It is, and has been for years and years. It just takes a little more time to walk out the distance from the yardage markers provided on EVERY course. Funny how people don't think that its a tremendous advantage to land beside the blue marker so that you know exactly what your yardage is, and now the shot is far easier than any other they've had all day.

The fact is this: GPS units speed up play by more quickly giving you the information that you are entitled to garner by reference to the course markers. They do not take slope into consideration so do not take the judgement and perception of the golfer out of the equation one iota.

Webbs

Myksyk wrote: »

Don't agree at all. Your post betrays a misunderstanding of how GPS units work. GPS units only tell you the 2-dimensional yardage (as if the ground between unit and flag IS flat) and therefore take nothing out of the equation.

I can be told by the unit that I am 150m to centre of green. However, I can look around and see that I am at least 20m above the flag ... the unit does not take this into consideration, I have to do that myself. I have to guess what difference that will make to the shot in terms of distance as I always have had to. I will also have to take slope, wind and temperature into account as well as how warmed up I am personally. I also have to guess how far the flag is on as this is not provided by courses typically. One day this shot could be a 5 iron and another it could be an 8 iron. Knowing its 150m is only the most basic of information.

Secondly, the argument here is presented as if this information is not already readily available to everyone who plays golf. It is, and has been for years and years. It just takes a little more time to walk out the distance from the yardage markers provided on EVERY course. Funny how people don't think that its a tremendous advantage to land beside the blue marker so that you know exactly what your yardage is, and now the shot is far easier than any other they've had all day.

The fact is this: GPS units speed up play by more quickly giving you the information that you are entitled to garner by reference to the course markers. They do not take slope into consideration so do not take the judgement and perception of the golfer out of the equation one iota.

But how much quicker will it make a round? if your someone who plays quite quickly you will have paced out yardage while others are taking shots or looking at their GPS!
Slow players will be slow players whether they have a GPS or not.

So why do you need a device that is only open to those that can afford it? We all have different equipment on the course but ultimately its upto 14 clubs and a ball, whereas GPS is an 'optional' piece of kit that can be seen to give an advantage, an analogy would be why cant you use buggies in a competition? its because it will give an advantage to those who have one over those who dont

dnjoyce

Webbs wrote: »

So why do you need a device that is only open to those that can afford it? We all have different equipment on the course but ultimately its upto 14 clubs and a ball, whereas GPS is an 'optional' piece of kit that can be seen to give an advantage, an analogy would be why cant you use buggies in a competition? its because it will give an advantage to those who have one over those who dont

There is no advantage gained using a DMD - the information is already freely available to everyone by either pacing to the distance markers and back or estimating etc. The use of them merely speeds up this process.

Myksyk

Webbs wrote: »

So why do you need a device that is only open to those that can afford it? We all have different equipment on the course but ultimately its upto 14 clubs and a ball, whereas GPS is an 'optional' piece of kit that can be seen to give an advantage, an analogy would be why cant you use buggies in a competition? its because it will give an advantage to those who have one over those who dont

People have always had advantages over each other based on the amount they can pay for all their gear. If you can pay for the best driver technology, the best fitted clubs, the best rain gear, the best ball, the best shoes ... the list goes on. These actually probably DO confer advantage but no-one is complaining ...because that's life. DMDs constitute no advantage IMO and yet everyone is up in arms. You're making the argument that a DMD gives an advantage so my question is ... what advantage does it give? (advantage being defined as something [in this case information] that someone else can't have or can't get).

Webbs

Myksyk wrote: »

People have always had advantages over each other based on the amount they can pay for all their gear. If you can pay for the best driver technology, the best fitted clubs, the best rain gear, the best ball, the best shoes ... the list goes on. These actually probably DO confer advantage but no-one is complaining ...because that's life. DMDs constitute no advantage IMO and yet everyone is up in arms. You're making the argument that a DMD gives an advantage so my question is ... what advantage does it give? (advantage being defined as something [in this case information] that someone else can't have or can't get).

If it doesnt give an advantage why have one then?

The speeding up play just doesnt hold up. I have played with a guy who uses one and he was and still is a slow player, we dont get round any quicker!

Myksyk

BTW, the buggy example isn't an analogy to 'availability of yardage information'. It would only be comparable if everyone was allowed to use buggies if they wanted and they were readily available to everyone.

Myksyk

Webbs wrote: »

If it doesnt give an advantage why have one then?

The speeding up play just doesnt hold up. I have played with a guy who uses one and he was and still is a slow player, we dont get round any quicker!

Sorry, you're the one claiming there's an advantage. The question to you was "what advantage does it give?"

Mister Sifter

Webbs wrote: »

If it doesnt give an advantage why have one then?

The same reason that I stick my bread in a toaster in the morning and don't fanny around with the grill.

The_Architect

thegen wrote: »

Everyone is going to have a different take on this, but going by some reckoning we should do away with yardage markers, pin placement info etc. Sure why not do away with the pin and guess where the hole is from the fairway;);)

Now you're thinking along the right lines.

We've actually only had yardage markers for about 25 years. What do you think they did before that? How quickly we forget.

Glencarraig

Ok lads, here is the answer from the GUI, I trust this will end the confusion.

Question:
Could you please clarify the rule on use of Distance measuring devices for inter club competitions where the host club has a local rule banning the use of such devices. Does the GUI ruling over rule the local rule?

Answer:
The Rule applies for all GUI Championships, the local rule for the Golf Club does not apply if it is an official GUI Championship.
Kind Regards,
Golfing Union of Ireland

chalkie 501

thegen wrote: »

DMD's will only assist in doing away with the most annoying of things on a golf course, slow play.

The only difference is the pacing to and fro to get my yardage from markers.

couldnt agree more....they definatley speed up play

Mister Sifter

Glencarraig wrote: »

Ok lads, here is the answer from the GUI, I trust this will end the confusion.

Question:
Could you please clarify the rule on use of Distance measuring devices for inter club competitions where the host club has a local rule banning the use of such devices. Does the GUI ruling over rule the local rule?

Answer:
The Rule applies for all GUI Championships, the local rule for the Golf Club does not apply if it is an official GUI Championship.
Kind Regards,
Golfing Union of Ireland

So too cut through all the crap here, the long and short of it is:

Lasers and GPS devices can now be used in Barton Cup, Senior Cup, East of Ireland etc. Is that right?

PhilipMarlowe

Woo Hoo for more ambiguity!
Cups and Shields are not championships.. or are they?

thegen

Licksy wrote: »

Woo Hoo for more ambiguity!
Cups and Shields are not championships.. or are they?

Licksy, my thinking exactly. I have fired off an email to GUI asking for clarification on this.

Myksyk

Good cos I still think that's unclear. Are interclubs GUI championships?

Mister Sifter

Licksy wrote: »

Woo Hoo for more ambiguity!
Cups and Shields are not championships.. or are they?

Exactly. Good old plain English at it's finest here...

I took it from what is posted on the GUI site that it was a no for Cups & Shields - Barton Cup etc, and a yes for Championships - East of Ireland etc.

Some of the stuff in this thread would appear to suggest it's a yes for everything. To muddy it further, Click on Championships on the GUi website and Cups & Shields are listed underneath.

PhilipMarlowe

If you go to GUI > Leinster you get two links - one for Leinster Championships and one for Leinster Cups and Shields.
Championships are:

East of Ireland Amateur Open Championship
Leinster Boys Under 15 Close Championship
Leinster Boys Under 15 Open Championship
Leinster Boys Amateur Open Championship
Leinster Youths Amateur Open Championship
Leinster Mid Amateur Open Championship
Leinster Seniors Amateur Open Championship
Leinster Veterans Amateur Open Championship
Leinster Girls & Boys (Under 13) Open - 18 Holes
Leinster Boys Under 13 Series
Leinster Girls & Boys (Under 13) Open - 9 Holes

The motion was as muddy as feck... why say "all competitions including championships"?
It's either ALL competitions which is pretty obvious what it means or else say ONLY Championships if that's all you want it to apply to.
"ALL competitions including championships" is a more complicated way of saying "ALL competitions (fullstop!)".

IITYWYBMAD

Webbs wrote: »

If it doesnt give an advantage why have one then?

The speeding up play just doesnt hold up. I have played with a guy who uses one and he was and still is a slow player, we dont get round any quicker!

I agree with the premise of your point above, but I disagree with your argument. I use one. I do think it gives me an advantage, and I also believe that it speeds up play.

The reason why, is a different question, but it's thinking like yours above that would have us all playing with Gratex Dimple Balls, Wooden shaft drivers and single piece putters. Why allow players to use different golf clubs, when it might give them an advantage? Why allow golfers to take lessons, when it would give them an advantage? Why allow golfers to play with soft or long balls, when it might give them an advantage?

AGC

It is the 'For all competitions' that they need to clarify

Just allow them...

bridestream

I've been speaking to a Senior Officer within the GUI and he confirms DMD's can be used for all inter club competitions operating under the GUI.
Competitions such as Tudenham Cup, Duggan Cup etc that are sponsored by a specific club are NOT GUI competitions and the organisers of these now need to bring themselves into line with the GUI competitions, otherwise there will be a lot of confusion.

Mister Sifter

Would it be too much to ask for the GUI to stick a notice up on their website in plain english explaining all this? Barton Cup matches kick off in the next couple of weeks and there's likely to be a good bit of confusion all round otherwise.

As it is i can already see certain players whinging and trying to call rulings in inter-club matches this season when they see their opponents standing on the first fairway with a laser pointing at the flag.

Anyway, it's a step in the right direction i think, one that's been inevitable for a while now.

AGC

Distance Measuring Devices are now permitted under local rule, in all GUI run events, including all provincial and national Championships and all Cups and Shields events, both at provincial and national level.
When a GUI event is held at a golf club - the GUI Local Rules and Tournament Conditions take precedence over the Club Local Rules.
If a golf club wishes to permit Distance Measuring Devices in their own competitions, it must adopt a local rule that permits their use.
A Distance Measuring Devince must only measure distance. If a player uses a device that is designed to gauge or measure other conditions that might affect his play, the player is in breach of Rule 14-3, regardless of whether any such function is used.
The full wording is below, as it appears in GUI Tournament Conditions for all events.
"A player may obtain distance information by using a device that measures distance only. If during a stipulated round, a player uses a distance-measuring device that is designed to gauge or measure other conditions that might affect his play (e.g. gradient, wind speed, temperature etc.) the player is in breach of Rule 14-3, for which the penalty is disqualification, regardless of whether any such additional function is actually used."
Please direct queries to your respective branch office:
Connacht: guicb@eircom.net
Leinster: info@leinster.gui.ie
Munster: guimb@iol.ie
Ulster: info@gui-ulster.co.uk
All golf clubs will be notified in writing of all motions carried at the AGM last Friday.

http://www.gui.ie/news_detail.asp?area=1&id=2825

Just leaves Barton Cup etc up in the air.

PhilipMarlowe

AGC wrote: »

Just leaves Barton Cup etc up in the air.

I don't see any "up in the air" about that!
Anything that the GUI run now allows DMDs - "now permitted under local rule, in all GUI run events".
They are always allowed regardless of what the club has in place or not - GUI Local Rules and Tournament Conditions take precedence over the Club Local Rules.

thegen

Question to GUI

Hi,

With the new rules governing the use of DMD’s will you please clarify the following. It states they are OK for use in Championships. Does this include Cups & Shields, eg: Barton Cup, Junior Cup & Jimmy Bruen Shield?

Thanking you in advance.
Reply from GUI.

Dear ,

Yes, this new rule will apply to all GUI run events.

Kind regards,
Anita Gordon

Anita Gordon
Administrator
Leinster Branch, GUI

Tel 01 6016842
Fax 01 6016858

airguitar

Poor Anita must be bombarded with emails, I have also sent one to the Leinster Branch as well to get the ruling clarified for my club! I will post the reply shortly

slumped

airguitar wrote: »

Poor Anita must be bombarded with emails, I have also sent one to the Leinster Branch as well to get the ruling clarified for my club! I will post the reply shortly

It says clearly what the situation for clubs is on the GUI site

"If a golf club wishes to permit Distance Measuring Devices in their own competitions, it must adopt a local rule that permits their use."

thegen

slumped wrote: »

It says clearly what the situation for clubs is on the GUI site

"If a golf club wishes to permit Distance Measuring Devices in their own competitions, it must adopt a local rule that permits their use."

The above has been the rule for quite some time, what we are talking about is the use of DMD's in GUI run events where previously they were not allowed.

Maverick.ie

There is no evidence that yardage markers or indeed dmd speed up play, it is indeed debatable as to whether they actually slow play down. There may be a case to make if you can hit a ball 9/10 into a 6foot wide circle from 150 yds, if you can't all your trying to do is hit the green and if you can't figure out what to hit by looking at the distance to go and taking the topography into account your only fooling yourself into thinking you can play then game

LuckyGent88

Well for me they will speed up my play a little but no way i am a slow player anyway. The situation where it will speed up play for me is where a club has its distances in yards where i deal in metres and hopefully these devices can do all the calculations for me. I get all confused with yards/metres even though i know what the story is...maybe its just an excuse for when i hit a bad shat which is often

Myksyk

LuckyGent88 wrote: »

Well for me they will speed up my play a little but no way i am a slow player anyway. The situation where it will speed up play for me is where a club has its distances in yards where i deal in metres and hopefully these devices can do all the calculations for me. I get all confused with yards/metres even though i know what the story is...maybe its just an excuse for when i hit a bad shat which is often

Yes they are great for this. I bring my to other courses which are marked in yards but I'm used to meters. While it's not rocket science to work out in your head (bar finding the fairway markers in the first instance) there is no work with a DMD as you just look at your bag as you arrive at your ball and away you go.

ShriekingSheet

I haven't got one to date, pretty much purely for the GUI reason. Wasn't much point in havin git if you couldn't use it on the day you wanted to play well. Now this fecks me up.

I do however, have hair-brained scheme to bet on the WGC Match Play and win enough money to buy one...

http://shriekingsheet.blogspot.com/