Legal Tender

Sully

A quick question for the legal heads..

Whats the position with colleges who operate a "No Cash" policy and require the use of a debit-type card to purchase services or products on campus. Are they bound by any legal tender legislations?

If colleges will only allow you to "top up" your debit card in €2 coins or notes (€5 or more), and nothing smaller, is this legal? I would wonder would a college be forced to accept most, if not all, legal tender for the purchase of a product or service.

So I have five euro in change, €1 and €50c we will say. I want to buy my dinner and a drink but cant pay by cash. So I go to top up my debit card. But the machine will only allow €2 coins or notes. Therefore, is it not refusing my right to purchase a product using what is legal tender in Ireland?

dermot_sheehan

Legal tender simply means if you are in debt to someone, the tendering of bank notes or up to 50 coins is a valid defence to a lawsuit to recover the debt.

Sully

gabhain7 wrote: »

Legal tender simply means if you are in debt to someone, the tendering of bank notes or up to 50 coins is a valid defence to a lawsuit to recover the debt.

So there isn't any legal requirements on what money can be accepted or refused?

dermot_sheehan

It's a matter for agreement between the parties.

So for example Ryanair can refuse to take cash or a vending machine refuse to take bank notes.

If you are in a situation in which you are in debt to the merchant, they are required to take legal tender in satisfaction of the debt.

So for example if I am dining and order food, and I attempt to settle the bill at the end of the night, the establishment must accept bank notes or up to 50 coin. If they refuse to accept them I can lawfully leave and if criminal proceedings were brought for making off without payment or civil proceedings were brought for the debt I would have a complete defence in that I tendered legal tender.

Sully

So if I order food, or attempt to buy something in the shop, and they say I must pay by card. Cash not accepted. I go about to do that, but the machine wont let me top up unless I have €2 coins or notes. But I have smaller change such as €1 coins but they wont accept it.

So is it my fault as the machine can rightfully refuse or should the machine accept such tender?

dermot_sheehan

You are not in debt to the merchant as the machine has not dispensed anything yet.

Merchant is perfectly entitled to have as a term of business coins only, no coins, credit card only, etc etc. If you're not in debt to the merchant the provisions regarding legal tender do not come into play.

Sully

gabhain7 wrote: »

You are not in debt to the merchant as the machine has not dispensed anything yet.

Merchant is perfectly entitled to have as a term of business coins only, no coins, credit card only, etc etc. If you're not in debt to the merchant the provisions regarding legal tender do not come into play.

But if I go, get the food put out on my plate, and go to pay - am I still not in debt? Do I need to eat it before I am in debt?

Our man in Havana

I would say you are in debt at that stage.

coylemj

Once the food has been put in front of you, you have obtained credit from the vendor and you are in debt. When it came to payment he would have to accept cash and if he refused it you would be within your rights to give him your name and address and walk out.

Sully

So would that not extend to also going into the campus shop, picking up a few bits and pieces, and trying to pay then but refused because you don't have funds on your card because the machines are set to refuse €1 and smaller coins.

MagicSean

Not really. Those things can be put back on the shelf. A dinner cannot.

coylemj

Sully wrote: »

So would that not extend to also going into the campus shop, picking up a few bits and pieces, and trying to pay then but refused because you don't have funds on your card because the machines are set to refuse €1 and smaller coins.

If you slapped the money on the counter and made a rush for the door they might be within their rights to stop you from leaving with the goods based on the fact that the terms and conditions on display precluded you from paying in cash but they wouldn't get far with the Gardai if they called them as there would clearly be no element of fraud or dishonesty so there would be no crime committed or attempted i.e. it would be a civil case between you and the shop.

darragh666

coylemj wrote: »

If you slapped the money on the counter and made a rush for the door they might be within their rights to stop you from leaving with the goods based on the fact that the terms and conditions on display precluded you from paying in cash but they wouldn't get far with the Gardai if they called them as there would clearly be no element of fraud or dishonesty so there would be no crime committed or attempted i.e. it would be a civil case between you and the shop.

A crime would be committed, the cashier would not have accepted the offer to purchase the goods and therefore it would be theft.

It probably wouldnt be pursued by the Gardai but seeing as this place seems to be on a college campus and the OP frequents this place they wouldnt get away with it twice.

Our man in Havana

A theft charge would never stick in that situation.

coylemj

Section 4 of the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, 2001 kicks off with the following definition of theft....

a person is guilty of theft if he or she dishonestly appropriates property without the consent of its owner and with the intention of depriving its owner of it.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0050/sec0004.html#sec4

In the example I put forward, the individual deposits the price of the item in cash on the counter and then attempts to leave with the goods, there is clearly no element of dishonesty. The vendor mightn't like what's happening but he is not being defrauded because he has been given the asking price and the putative buyer is not acting dishonestly. No Garda would take on the case because the chances of a conviction would be zero.

darragh666

....

Victor

coylemj wrote: »

Section 4 of the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, 2001 kicks off with the following definition of theft....

a person is guilty of theft if he or she dishonestly appropriates property without the consent of its owner and with the intention of depriving its owner of it.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0050/sec0004.html#sec4

In the example I put forward, the individual deposits the price of the item in cash on the counter and then attempts to leave with the goods, there is clearly no element of dishonesty. The vendor mightn't like what's happening but he is not being defrauded because he has been given the asking price and the putative buyer is not acting dishonestly. No Garda would take on the case because the chances of a conviction would be zero.

I disagree somewhat.

While it might depend on the circumstances, slapping the money on the counter and running off with the goods, could be construed as dishonest or certainly less than honest as you are trying to bypass the retailer's security system.

Would you try the same on a Dublin Bus, where the money has to go into the machine?