Are Fine Gael justified in claiming Michael Collins as their representative?

Azure_sky

I don't think so. Much of their policies when in power seemed to ape the British Tories, were very conservative, and never showed any initiative in reclaiming Northern Ireland.

dilbert2

Azure_sky wrote: »

I don't think so. Much of their policies when in power seemed to ape the British Tories, were very conservative, and never showed any initiative in reclaiming Northern Ireland.

Who cares.

Bottle_of_Smoke

They don't harp on about it too much - just the odd commemoration.

You're right its a bit meaningless though the exact same could be said for Sinn Fein when they decided to recognise Leinster house in 1986, and agree to the GFA in 1998

Dannyboy83

Azure_sky wrote: »

I don't think so. Much of their policies when in power seemed to ape the British Tories, were very conservative, and never showed any initiative in reclaiming Northern Ireland.

Collins would seem to fit in much more with the Tories, economically, than he would with Sinn Fein or Fianna Fail.

Fine gael would seem to be closest to represent what Collins proposed, but still not near enough.

http://www.generalmichaelcollins.com/The_Path_to_Freedom/5_Path_to_Freedom.html
http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/E900001-001/text011.html
"At the same time I think we shall safely avoid State Socialism, which has nothing to commend it in a country like Ireland, and, in any case, is monopoly of another kind. "

"The development of industry in the new Ireland should be on lines which exclude monopoly profits. The product of industry would thus be left sufficiently free to supply good wages to those employed in it."

"We must have the study of specialised chemistry to aid us, as it does our foreign competitors in the countries I have named."

"With plenty of land available at an economic rent or price such industries can be established throughout the country districts, opening up new opportunities for employment. "

"If land could be obtained more cheaply in town and country the housing problem would not present so acute a problem"

"Taxation, where it hinders, must be adjusted, and must be imposed where the burden will fall lightest and can best be borne, and where it will encourage rather than discourage industry."

"With unified control and direction, various sources of water-power could be arranged in large stations for centralised industries, and the energy could be redistributed to provide light and heat for the neighbouring towns and villages."

"To facilitate the transport of agricultural produce and commodities generally, a complete system of ways of communication must be established. The extension and unifying of our railways, linking up ocean ports and fishing harbours with the interior, is essential. This system will be worked in connection with our inland waterways, and will be supplemented by a motor-lorry service on our roads – and these also must be greatly improved.

Our harbours must be developed. Ireland occupies a unique geographical position. She is the stepping-stone between the Old World and the New. She should therefore, become a great exchange mart between Europe and America."

"Business cannot succeed without capital. Millions of Irish money are lying idle in banks. The deposits in Irish joint stock banks increased in the aggregate by £7,318,000 during the half-year ended December 31, 1921. At that date the total of deposits and cash balances in the Irish banks was £194,391,000, to which in addition there was a sum of almost £14,000,000 in the Post Office Savings Bank. If Irish money were invested in Irish industries, to assist existing ones, and to finance new enterprises, there would be an enormous development of Irish commerce. The Irish people have a large amount of capital invested abroad. With scope for our energies, with restoration of confidence, the inevitable tendency will be towards return of this capital to Ireland. It will then flow in its proper channel. It will be used for opening up new and promising fields in this country."

It's enough to make me sick to see what we could have had, compared to what we ended up with. This was Collins strong suit after all, the war of independence was just the prelude, his real success would have been building up this country.

There is a good quote by Quincy Jones on Tupac Shakur, which could equally have been written about Michael Collins:

"The tragedy of Tupac is that his untimely passing is representative of too many young black men in this country....If we had lost Oprah Winfrey at 25, we would have lost a relatively unknown, local market TV anchorwoman. If we had lost Malcolm X at 25, we would have lost a hustler named Detroit Red. And if I had left the world at 25, we would have lost a big-band trumpet player and aspiring composer--just a sliver of my eventual life potential. "
— Quincy Jones

CoalBucket

I think as he was orbiting the moon he said "up enda"

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

The thing is, Michael Collins was very determined to carry on the fight in the north and only accepted the treaty for pragmatic reasons. I think most Fine Gaelers have a incorrect view of what the man stood for.

Azure_sky

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Collins would seem to fit in much more with the Tories, economically, than he would with Sinn Fein or Fianna Fail.

Fine gael would seem to be closest to represent what Collins proposed, but still not near enough.




It's enough to make me sick to see what we could have had, compared to what we ended up with. This was Collins strong suit after all, the war of independence was just the prelude, his real success would have been building up this country.

There is a good quote by Quincy Jones on Tupac Shakur, which could equally have been written about Michael Collins:

I was referring to his social rather than economic policies. To be fair the quote where he opposed state socialism must be put into context. The socialist policies James Conolly had in mind were vastly different to the modern Labour party. Collins also said he would have followed Connoly to hell. Such was his respect for the man. A quote that has been misattributed to De Valera.

But back to my main point. F.G. are social conservatives. In this sense they would have more in with De Valera, the Tories and (at an extreme end) O' Duffy than Collins, who was very socially progressive for a man of his age. He was not particulary religious either.

Monty Burnz

Azure_sky wrote: »

But back to my main point. F.G. are social conservatives. In this sense they would have more in with De Valera, the Tories and (at an extreme end) O' Duffy than Collins, who was very socially progressive for a man of his age. He was not particulary religious either.

Total horsefeathers. It was FG who introduced divorce into the country, in the face of fierce opposition from Fianna Failure and the church. They are social liberals. This social conservative bull seems to be a new angle to attack them from. As far as I know, the only socially 'liberal' ideas that are not official party policy are gay marriage (which I'd happily see introduced) and abortion on demand (which I probably wouldn't).

I look forward to your extensive proof that they are social conservatives (good luck with that). I will provide an equally lengthy proof that up is down.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Total horsefeathers. It was FG who introduced divorce into the country, in the face of fierce opposition from Fianna Failure and the church. They are social liberals. This social conservative bull seems to be a new angle to attack them from. As far as I know, the only socially 'liberal' ideas that are not official party policy are gay marriage (which I'd happily see introduced) and abortion on demand (which I probably wouldn't).

I look forward to your extensive proof that they are social conservatives (good luck with that). I will provide an equally lengthy proof that up is down.

I'd imagine they'd be very against a liberal stance on soft drugs/prostitution too

Monty Burnz

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I'd imagine they'd be very against a liberal stance on soft drugs/prostitution too

I actually don't what know their policies on those areas are either. I'd be in favour of regulation, legalisation and taxation of both myself. We'll see what they come up with I guess, but presumably for the first couple of years they'll be primarily trying to save the sinking ship.

Azure_sky

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Total horsefeathers. It was FG who introduced divorce into the country, in the face of fierce opposition from Fianna Failure and the church. They are social liberals. This social conservative bull seems to be a new angle to attack them from. As far as I know, the only socially 'liberal' ideas that are not official party policy are gay marriage (which I'd happily see introduced) and abortion on demand (which I probably wouldn't).

I look forward to your extensive proof that they are social conservatives (good luck with that). I will provide an equally lengthy proof that up is down.

Here you go. Though you pretty much said it yourself (Thanks for invalidating your own argument by the way.):) they are conservative on LGBT issues, a major social issue, unlike Labour.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70736409&postcount=5

PatsytheNazi

Azure_sky wrote: »

I don't think so. Much of their policies when in power seemed to ape the British Tories, were very conservative, and never showed any initiative in reclaiming Northern Ireland.

Yes, FG snotty FF.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Total horsefeathers. It was FG who introduced divorce into the country, in the face of fierce opposition from Fianna Failure and the church. They are social liberals. This social conservative bull seems to be a new angle to attack them from. As far as I know, the only socially 'liberal' ideas that are not official party policy are gay marriage (which I'd happily see introduced) and abortion on demand (which I probably wouldn't).

I look forward to your extensive proof that they are social conservatives (good luck with that). I will provide an equally lengthy proof that up is down.

They appear to think of themselves as socially conservative at times, with Enda describing Ireland as a Christian country.

Dannyboy83

Azure_sky wrote: »

Here you go. Though you pretty much said it yourself (Thanks for invalidating your own argument by the way.):) they are conservative on LGBT issues, a major social issue, unlike Labour.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70736409&postcount=5

I'm pro-gay marraige and pro-abortion, but economics are to the fore in this election. I'm more in line with Labour's social policies, and more in line with Fine Gael's economic policies.
It would be nice if we could also have those things, but they pale in importance compared to economic issues at the moment.
Therefore it's obvious I have to vote for Fine Gael.

Duke Leonal Felmet

When I read those quotes, I can only imagine what might have been. Collins' death is surely one of the most pivotal events in the course of modern Irish history. Imagine what the country could have turned out like without protectionist policies and state-enforced Catholic dogma.

Ah well...

belacqua_

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Total horsefeathers. It was FG who introduced divorce into the country, in the face of fierce opposition from Fianna Failure and the church.

Not to mention many of its own party members including grass roots Fine Gaelers like the staunchly conservative Brendan McGahon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_McGahon) and his supporters -- one reason in particular why I refused to even consider voting FG in the past.

Wolfe Tone

They give out copies of the Michael Collins film if you sign up in college

Sulmac

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

They give out copies of the Michael Collins film if you sign up in college

The Kevin Barry Cumann (Ógra Fianna Fáil) in UCD did that this year.

Wolfe Tone

Sulmac wrote: »

The Kevin Barry Cumann (Ógra Fianna Fáil) in UCD did that this year.

Thats strange, they(FF) gave out copies of the proclamation in DCU, I took pleasure in reading a bit of it to the FF hack they had working the stand

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Both YFG and OFF in NUIG seem to be very fond of gimmicky youth politics. This was my favourite....

Bottle_of_Smoke

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Both YFG and OFF in NUIG seem to be very fond of gimmicky youth politics. This was my favourite....

Is that a FF poster or a FG poster taking the pis out of FF?

KeithAFC

Why they would want to claim him as one of their own is beyond me. He got killed by his own people.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Is that a FF poster or a FG poster taking the pis out of FF?

Its a genuine Fianna Fail poster.

Dionysus

Azure_sky wrote: »

Are Fine Gael justified in claiming Michael Collins as their representative?

Michael Collins, or Míc[h]eál Ó Coileáin as [url=url=http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/1108/1224282866090.html]he preferred to be called[/url], would be turning in his grave if he could see what Fine Gael's policy on the Irish language is in 2011. The sheer balls on Fine Gael to claim him after that stunt.


'English civilization made us into the stage Irishman, hardly a caricature. They destroyed our language, all but destroyed it, and in giving us their own they cursed us so that we have become its slaves. Its words seem with us almost an end in themselves, and not as they should be, the medium for expressing our thoughts. We have now won the first victory.

We have secured the departure of the enemy who imposed upon us that by which we were debased, and by means of which he kept us in subjection. We only succeeded after we had begun to get back our Irish ways, after we had made a serious effort to speak our own language, after we had striven again to govern ourselves. We can only keep out the enemy, and all other enemies, by completing that task. We are now free in name. The extent to which we become free in fact and secure our freedom will be the extent to which we become Gaels again.... But the spiritual machine which has been mutilating us, destroying our customs, and our independent life, is not so easy to discern.... And it has become so familiar, how are we to recognise it? We cannot, perhaps. But we can do something else. We can replace it....The biggest task will be the restoration of the language. How can we express our most subtle thoughts and finest feelings in a foreign tongue? Irish will scarcely be our language in this generation, not even perhaps in the next. But until we have it again on our tongues and in our minds we are not free'

Michael Collins, The Path to Freedom (Dublin, 1922)

Dob74

Dionysus wrote: »

Michael Collins, or Míc[h]eál Ó Coileáin as he preferred to be called, would be turning in his grave if he could see what Fine Gael's policy on the Irish language is in 2011. The sheer balls on Fine Gael to claim him after that stunt.


'English civilization made us into the stage Irishman, hardly a caricature. They destroyed our language, all but destroyed it, and in giving us their own they cursed us so that we have become its slaves. Its words seem with us almost an end in themselves, and not as they should be, the medium for expressing our thoughts. We have now won the first victory.

We have secured the departure of the enemy who imposed upon us that by which we were debased, and by means of which he kept us in subjection. We only succeeded after we had begun to get back our Irish ways, after we had made a serious effort to speak our own language, after we had striven again to govern ourselves. We can only keep out the enemy, and all other enemies, by completing that task. We are now free in name. The extent to which we become free in fact and secure our freedom will be the extent to which we become Gaels again.... But the spiritual machine which has been mutilating us, destroying our customs, and our independent life, is not so easy to discern.... And it has become so familiar, how are we to recognise it? We cannot, perhaps. But we can do something else. We can replace it....The biggest task will be the restoration of the language. How can we express our most subtle thoughts and finest feelings in a foreign tongue? Irish will scarcely be our language in this generation, not even perhaps in the next. But until we have it again on our tongues and in our minds we are not free'

Michael Collins, The Path to Freedom (Dublin, 1922)

Collins would be turning in his grave if he saw how badly the irish language is taught and the amount of money wasted on the poor standards of teaching of it.
Collins was a stunch nationalised but he was also very practical.

Duke Leonal Felmet

KeithAFC wrote: »

Why they would want to claim him as one of their own is beyond me. He got killed by his own people.

Charity post.

dsmythy

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I'm pro-gay marraige and pro-abortion, but economics are to the fore in this election. I'm more in line with Labour's social policies, and more in line with Fine Gael's economic policies.
It would be nice if we could also have those things, but they pale in importance compared to economic issues at the moment.
Therefore it's obvious I have to vote for Fine Gael.

Since they're likely to be in power together you might get the best of both worlds anyway.

Dionysus

Dob74 wrote: »

Collins would be turning in his grave if he saw how badly the irish language is taught and the amount of money wasted on the poor standards of teaching of it.
Collins was a stunch nationalised but he was also very practical.

This is a non-sequitur. Fine Gael's current Irish language policy has no intention of achieving Collins's aims for the language. If Fine Gael were intent upon fulfilling those aims, they would radically change the teaching techniques as the first and most obvious solution. There is widespread agreement on this point. Fine Gael, however, has comprehensively ignored the elephant in the room by focusing on the bugbear of mandatory Irish. It's disingenuous to imply that Fine Gael's ill-researched current policy on the Irish language is designed to achieve the stated aims of Michael Collins.

Agent Smith

Sulmac wrote: »

The Kevin Barry Cumann (Ógra Fianna Fáil) in UCD did that this year.

no they didnt, YFG did