DB driver taking liberties with price increase

ullu

I'm not a frequent bus user anymore and took one for the first time this year earlier in the week.

I was paying the full fare on the way into town and after saying '€2.20', the driver politely informed me that the new fare is €2.30. He didn't ask for the extra 10 cents.

On the return journey, I had forgotten this information so queued up armed with a fresh €2.20. The guy in front of me stated the same fare. I noticed the driver pressing a button higher in the console for this guy (am I right in thinking the fares escalate in price from the top down?). When it was my turn, I put in my change and stated €2.20. He pressed the same button and when I checked the ticket, it was a €1.20.

So what I'm wondering is if it's probable that this guy is skimming off the top? If so, is it feasible that it's a widespread problem? Is it the kind of thing that a supervisor could notice and say "Dave, you have an awful lot of short journey fares tonight, what's the story?". I can imagine it's difficult to prove otherwise.

Maybe he misheard you, it's happened to me before so I said it to the driver and got a corrected ticket

foggy_lad

ullu wrote: »

I'm not a frequent bus user anymore and took one for the first time this year earlier in the week.

I was paying the full fare on the way into town and after saying '€2.20', the driver politely informed me that the new fare is €2.30. He didn't ask for the extra 10 cents.

On the return journey, I had forgotten this information so queued up armed with a fresh €2.20. The guy in front of me stated the same fare. I noticed the driver pressing a button higher in the console for this guy (am I right in thinking the fares escalate in price from the top down?). When it was my turn, I put in my change and stated €2.20. He pressed the same button and when I checked the ticket, it was a €1.20.

So what I'm wondering is if it's probable that this guy is skimming off the top? If so, is it feasible that it's a widespread problem? Is it the kind of thing that a supervisor could notice and say "Dave, you have an awful lot of short journey fares tonight, what's the story?". I can imagine it's difficult to prove otherwise.

Not possible afaik, all the cash goes into a safe which the drivers should not have access to except to pull the locked box out of their bus and hand it over to someone in the garage for counting. Have you kept your original ticket to see what was on it? Maybe the driver thought you said €1.20 and saw what would have looked like a €1 coin in the slot?

ullu

I hadn't given much thought to accessing the money, perhaps the issuing of change receipts?

I accept that it's possible to mishear a customer but the fact that it happened twice in quick succession in the city centre (i.e most people are going further than three stages and the driver knows it) led me to initially think he was up to no good.

Cookie_Monster

Yeah, cash goes in box and cannot be accessed.

However in the past I've frequently come across staff who don't seem to mind people not having the right amounts and just letting them off. The problem is, if they don't this slows the bus down as you have to wait for all those people to search through their pockets / wallets / bags wasting everybodys time.

Is there any logging of the revenue in the box versus the ticket printed per driver?

ullu

foggy_lad wrote: »

Maybe the driver thought you said €1.20 and saw what would have looked like a €1 coin in the slot?

Just on this, I was paying with two €1 and four 5 cent coins. If the driver genuinely couldn't make that out, he shouldn't driving be the bus in fairness.

Victor

The week of a fare increase, they aren't going to be overly-strict about the extra 5c, although trying it several times with the same driver won't work.

It is possible he mis-head you and wasn't paying attention to the amount of money you inserted.

All cash handling staff in any business are given some lee-way regarding discrepancies, however, if they are systematic and excessive, I can imagine enquiries being made.

meanmachine3

ullu wrote: »

I'm not a frequent bus user anymore and took one for the first time this year earlier in the week.

I was paying the full fare on the way into town and after saying '€2.20', the driver politely informed me that the new fare is €2.30. He didn't ask for the extra 10 cents.

On the return journey, I had forgotten this information so queued up armed with a fresh €2.20. The guy in front of me stated the same fare. I noticed the driver pressing a button higher in the console for this guy (am I right in thinking the fares escalate in price from the top down?). When it was my turn, I put in my change and stated €2.20. He pressed the same button and when I checked the ticket, it was a €1.20.

So what I'm wondering is if it's probable that this guy is skimming off the top? If so, is it feasible that it's a widespread problem? Is it the kind of thing that a supervisor could notice and say "Dave, you have an awful lot of short journey fares tonight, what's the story?". I can imagine it's difficult to prove otherwise.

it's extremely highly unlikely the driver was skimming. i agree with most posters in saying that he may have mis heard you. D.B. take a dim view to drivers " making the rent" as it's called. dont forget theres cameras around the door/cab area.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Not possible afaik, all the cash goes into a safe which the drivers should not have access to except to pull the locked box out of their bus and hand it over to someone in the garage for counting

foggy we have no access to the safes what so-ever. all the de-safeing is done in the garage.

ullu wrote: »

I hadn't given much thought to accessing the money, perhaps the issuing of change receipts?

I accept that it's possible to mishear a customer but the fact that it happened twice in quick succession in the city centre (i.e most people are going further than three stages and the driver knows it) led me to initially think he was up to no good.

when i person asks for a fare we give them what they ask for. in alot of cases we do mis hear whats been asked for. as you say your basically a first time user of a bus. so he would'nt have known where you were going. theres alot of things to take into account when trying access whther someone is pulling the wool over our eyes. a spare driver would'nt have a clue about the same person trying the same stunt daily. i'm a marked in driver. so you see most of the same faces for the whole week. day 1 i would'nt question a fare but you watch who's paid the shorts and where they get off. i.e. they pay €1.20 from swords and get off in town. day 2 if they get on and they're recogonised paying €1.20 then i'd question them.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

However in the past I've frequently come across staff who don't seem to mind people not having the right amounts and just letting them off. The problem is, if they don't this slows the bus down as you have to wait for all those people to search through their pockets / wallets / bags wasting everybodys time.

this down to basically one thing cookie. refund tickets. e.g. you get on ask for a 2.30 ticket after tendering 2.50 and walk away without the refund. passenger gets on behind you looking for the same ticket and is short 20c ,i'll give them the ticket . they way i see it, things balance out.

ullu wrote: »

Just on this, I was paying with two €1 and four 5 cent coins. If the driver genuinely couldn't make that out, he shouldn't driving be the bus in fairness.

ullu it's very easy for coins to get stuck behind one another, get stuck in general, or just fall into the safe. an all to common thing.

AlekSmart

ullu wrote: »

I'm not a frequent bus user anymore and took one for the first time this year earlier in the week.

I was paying the full fare on the way into town and after saying '€2.20', the driver politely informed me that the new fare is €2.30. He didn't ask for the extra 10 cents.

On the return journey, I had forgotten this information so queued up armed with a fresh €2.20. The guy in front of me stated the same fare. I noticed the driver pressing a button higher in the console for this guy (am I right in thinking the fares escalate in price from the top down?). When it was my turn, I put in my change and stated €2.20. He pressed the same button and when I checked the ticket, it was a €1.20.

So what I'm wondering is if it's probable that this guy is skimming off the top? If so, is it feasible that it's a widespread problem? Is it the kind of thing that a supervisor could notice and say "Dave, you have an awful lot of short journey fares tonight, what's the story?". I can imagine it's difficult to prove otherwise.

Im intrigued that Ullu makes an assumption of criminality on the Busdrivers part so rapidly.

There are so many variables in the situation as described that in the absence of a slow-motion replay all we have is a a description of what could be simple error.

The best way out of this for Ullu or any suspicious passenger is to STATE YOUR DESTINATION.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/How-to-use-the-bus/Step-2/

This removes any ambiguity over the fare and will also quite effectively reveal the huge deficiency the Company has in identifying its Fare-Stage points to customers and staff alike.

The issue of cash handling is easily addressed,Dublin Bus drivers are not allowed to handle cash.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Fares--Tickets/

From that:

Please note no change is given by the driver or machine and the driver is not allowed under any circumstances to handle cash.

Many of my colleagues would be unaware that any Dublin Bus driver seen to be handling cash is immediately liable to disciplinary action.

Thats the Company Policy,introduced along with the Autofare System.

Now there are other significant elements to Ullu`s post which deserve attention also.

Ullu makes two €2.30 journeys per day (or at least on the day in question).
He/She is then paying a total of €4.60 for journeys which could be made for €3.70 using a Travel90 smartcard.

That`s one way of achieving a major monetary saving,avoiding the need to queue and of avoiding the angst associated with wondering about the Busdrivers integrity,or lack of same.

The issue described by Ullu appears to revolve more around mishearing rather than misbehaviour.

it should also be noted that the Bus cab is ergomonically a disaster area when it comes to customer interaction.

The introduction,many years ago,of the Assault Screen served to install a physical barrier between Driver and Passenger which is totally at variance with the notion of Customer Service in Bus terms.

Added to this is a widespread inability/reluctance of many people,especially Irish,to speak directly and clearly.

I would carry quite a few differerent nationalities each day,and I can say the Germans are by far and away the most direct.

Fix you with a gaze and clearly make their statement/enquiry.

Filipino`s follow closely but at a far lower level as they tend to have their journeys well planned and use pre-paids.

Irish/Nigerian/Indian/Roma can generally be relied upon to mutter,mumble or,worse still,fling a handful of coins into the vault and say nuttin at all....

It`s also instructive that Ullu`s post serves to undrerline just how much the continuing reliance on cash transactions is bogging our Bus services down in the mire.

All of this "noticing" can only mean that there was ample time available to "notice" as one waits for the passenger in front to go through the hoops...I`d suspect that the 7 second cash-handling window was well broken in Ullu`s case ?

Multiply this "noticing-time" by the number of cash paying passengers and the number of busy stops and you have,Heuston,a problem !

This is the major cause of delays to the present day Bus service and in many cases,such as Ullu`s is totally avoidable with a little planning....

parsi

foggy_lad wrote: »

Not possible afaik, all the cash goes into a safe which the drivers should not have access to except to pull the locked box out of their bus and hand it over to someone in the garage for counting. Have you kept your original ticket to see what was on it? Maybe the driver thought you said €1.20 and saw what would have looked like a €1 coin in the slot?

I think that the Mods should check this out - a posting from Foggy wherein he's not criticising Dublin Bus ?

ullu

AlekSmart wrote: »

Im intrigued that Ullu makes an assumption of criminality on the Busdrivers part so rapidly.

There are so many variables in the situation as described that in the absence of a slow-motion replay all we have is a a description of what could be simple error.

The best way out of this for Ullu or any suspicious passenger is to STATE YOUR DESTINATION.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/How-to-use-the-bus/Step-2/

This removes any ambiguity over the fare and will also quite effectively reveal the huge deficiency the Company has in identifying its Fare-Stage points to customers and staff alike.

The issue of cash handling is easily addressed,Dublin Bus drivers are not allowed to handle cash.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Fares--Tickets/

From that:

Many of my colleagues would be unaware that any Dublin Bus driver seen to be handling cash is immediately liable to disciplinary action.

Thats the Company Policy,introduced along with the Autofare System.

Now there are other significant elements to Ullu`s post which deserve attention also.

Ullu makes two €2.30 journeys per day (or at least on the day in question).
He/She is then paying a total of €4.60 for journeys which could be made for €3.70 using a Travel90 smartcard.

That`s one way of achieving a major monetary saving,avoiding the need to queue and of avoiding the angst associated with wondering about the Busdrivers integrity,or lack of same.

The issue described by Ullu appears to revolve more around mishearing rather than misbehaviour.

it should also be noted that the Bus cab is ergomonically a disaster area when it comes to customer interaction.

The introduction,many years ago,of the Assault Screen served to install a physical barrier between Driver and Passenger which is totally at variance with the notion of Customer Service in Bus terms.

Added to this is a widespread inability/reluctance of many people,especially Irish,to speak directly and clearly.

I would carry quite a few differerent nationalities each day,and I can say the Germans are by far and away the most direct.

Fix you with a gaze and clearly make their statement/enquiry.

Filipino`s follow closely but at a far lower level as they tend to have their journeys well planned and use pre-paids.

Irish/Nigerian/Indian/Roma can generally be relied upon to mutter,mumble or,worse still,fling a handful of coins into the vault and say nuttin at all....

It`s also instructive that Ullu`s post serves to undrerline just how much the continuing reliance on cash transactions is bogging our Bus services down in the mire.

All of this "noticing" can only mean that there was ample time available to "notice" as one waits for the passenger in front to go through the hoops...I`d suspect that the 7 second cash-handling window was well broken in Ullu`s case ?

Multiply this "noticing-time" by the number of cash paying passengers and the number of busy stops and you have,Heuston,a problem !

This is the major cause of delays to the present day Bus service and in many cases,such as Ullu`s is totally avoidable with a little planning....

At no point did I make an 'assumption of cirminality' and it strikes me as slightly defensive that you'd think that. I simply questioned it being possible and the overwhelming response has been that it's highly unlikely which is good to know. I used to be a daily bus (and card) user and I wanted to ask people who have more experience taking buses these days. One mistake is perfectly understandable. Two in quick succession is at least questionable (I heard the man in front of me clearly state '€2.20' and he had his back to me).

The main point here is that the driver in question was, at best, being overly laid back about his job. My past experience with most drivers when attempting to pay minimum fare has been an immediate query about my destination. The fact that this driver made two errors in quick succession led me to think it was worthy of questioning. When using cash, I always nod at the driver, maintain eye contact and clearly state the amount I'm paying.

What would happen if innocently mishearing 50/100 times a shift caused a float (excuse the probably wildly inaccurate terminology) to be €50/100 over what it should be?

I'm not sure why the notion of delay was introduced. The cash queue ahead of me one the second journey was particularly orderly and brisk. This cash handling window you speak of - I assume it means that a cash transaction takes an average of seven seconds? Mine took three or four for what it's worth. Most people I know would be infrequent bus users and most journeys would be relatively spontaneous, certainly not necessitating a trip to the nearest ticket agent beforehand.

meanmachine3

ullu wrote: »

At no point did I make an 'assumption of cirminality' and it strikes me as slightly defensive that you'd think that. I simply questioned it being possible and the overwhelming response has been that it's highly unlikely which is good to know. I used to be a daily bus (and card) user and I wanted to ask people who have more experience taking buses these days. One mistake is perfectly understandable. Two in quick succession is at least questionable (I heard the man in front of me clearly state '€2.20' and he had his back to me).

The main point here is that the driver in question was, at best, being overly laid back about his job. My past experience with most drivers when attempting to pay minimum fare has been an immediate query about my destination. The fact that this driver made two errors in quick succession led me to think it was worthy of questioning. When using cash, I always nod at the driver, maintain eye contact and clearly state the amount I'm paying.

What would happen if innocently mishearing 50/100 times a shift caused a float (excuse the probably wildly inaccurate terminology) to be €50/100 over what it should be?

I'm not sure why the notion of delay was introduced. The cash queue ahead of me one the second journey was particularly orderly and brisk. This cash handling window you speak of - I assume it means that a cash transaction takes an average of seven seconds? Mine took three or four for what it's worth. Most people I know would be infrequent bus users and most journeys would be relatively spontaneous, certainly not necessitating a trip to the nearest ticket agent beforehand.

on your first paragraph ullu, it is quite easy to make mistakes in sucession.

on your second paragraph. like in any job people are different when it comes to dealing with the public.you get some good and some bad. some drivers take it personally when it comes to fare evasion,or they feel like they're been treated like eejits. thats why they tend to ask the destination if it's the short fare ,
most are laid back. the way alot of us see it is that we're not inspectors. our main job is to get you ( the travelling public) from A to B as quick and as safely as possible. T.B.H. the last thing anyone needs is a stressed out driver.

on your third para of floats being over, i've never heard of a driver being called in when taking fare through the normal autofare system.

Losty Dublin

ullu wrote: »

At no point did I make an 'assumption of cirminality' and it strikes me as slightly defensive that you'd think that.

You did say "So what I'm wondering is if it's probable that this guy is skimming off the top?"

AlekSmart

Losty Dublin wrote: »

You did say "So what I'm wondering is if it's probable that this guy is skimming off the top?"

Yep Losty Dublin,that`s what I picked up on too.

But perhaps that`s just my "slightly" defensive nature....;)

The main point here is that the driver in question was, at best, being overly laid back about his job. My past experience with most drivers when attempting to pay minimum fare has been an immediate query about my destination. The fact that this driver made two errors in quick succession led me to think it was worthy of questioning. When using cash, I always nod at the driver, maintain eye contact and clearly state the amount I'm paying.

With respect Ullu,the point about your opinion of the drivers attitude to his job is surfacing in your subsequent post,you made no mention of having formed any such opinion in the OP.

As an example today I experienced a somewhat similar scenario when a gent asked me for 2,120`s,or thats what I heard him ask for.
Almost instantly I knew something was wrong when he hesitated and looked quizically at his tickets,my feeling was confirmed when the lad behind dropped his money in and asked for a 165....Yep...My initial lad had actually said..220 but I picked it up as 2 120`s .

No big deal,no raised eyebrows,except when I told him it was actually 230 but not to worry I`d carry the burden of the 20c shortfall....:)

I can`t help thinking that there`s now a bit more to the initial post than a mild interest in ticket issuing procedure.

Oddly enough,the DB Chief Accountant`s office circulated a memo to all Drivers some time back asking that Drivers pay particular attention to requests for the lowest cash fare.

The memo asked Drivers to ascertain from such customers their exact destination,something which as Ullu attests to is being done by some Drivers.

Again however the very action of asking that question often provokes a negative customer reaction,which only worsens if the Driver then stops at the stated destination and waits for the individual(s) to depart.

The actuality of any fare irregularity or scamming on the Drivers behalf is now only possible by physically interfering with the mechanism of the cash vault.

This would be immediately noticable to all and would also be picked up by the cab focused cctv,so I`d suggest it would only be an option for a paid up member of the lunatic fringe ? :eek:

On the issue of the cheaper Travel90 vis a vis the occasional bus user,it`s worth noting that the current batch of T90 tickets have significant shelf-life with expiry dates into 2013 on the latest ones so they still represent great value especially for anybody on the €2.30 fare.

Ah nuts

How are Dublin Bus allowed to increase their prices without changing the notices at the bus stops?


Is there not some consumer champion for this sort of thing?

foggy_lad

parsi wrote: »

I think that the Mods should check this out - a posting from Foggy wherein he's not criticising Dublin Bus ?

It's ok, I still needed to be corrected by meanmachine3 about the drivers not even handling the safes;)

Tickityboo

Could it just be the driver heard 20 and issued the only fare with 20 in it.
Where as if he had heard 30 you would have got the only fare with 30 in it.
Alot of the time drivers find it hard to see what's in the auto fare due to poor light or they just don't look if the loading is heavy and just take people on trust to try and speed up the loading.

AlekSmart

Ah nuts wrote: »

How are Dublin Bus allowed to increase their prices without changing the notices at the bus stops?


Is there not some consumer champion for this sort of thing?

Here ye go......

http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/

meanmachine3

foggy_lad wrote: »

It's ok, I still needed to be corrected by meanmachine3 about the drivers not even handling the safes;)

always a pleasure foggy. T.B.H foggy unless you've worked for D.B. you wouldn't have known. i must be getting soft in my old age. haven't been reprimanded yet by a mod . i must be due a suspension soon.

Victor

meanmachine3 wrote: »

always a pleasure foggy. T.B.H foggy unless you've worked for D.B. you wouldn't have known. i must be getting soft in my old age. haven't been reprimanded yet by a mod . i must be due a suspension soon.

Banned.










:pac:

meanmachine3

Victor wrote: »

Banned.










:pac:

heyyyy who got banned for something i said?

antoinolachtnai

AlekSmart wrote: »

Here ye go......

http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/

Sadly, NCA do not accept complaints in relation to information provided by Dublin Bus, unless there is a similar service available from another operator.

Victor

meanmachine3 wrote: »

heyyyy who got banned for something i said?

Nobody, it was a joke.

Terrontress

I notice that Translink drivers stopped going to a certain area of Belfast this week due to an armed robbery. Obviously the drivers and passengers are at such risk when cash is handed over. The Autofare is a very good system in this regard.

I remember being in Birmingham in the 90s and it was no change, no change ticket. Exact fare, prepaid or lose the difference. Might not be too bad for DB.

It would be interesting to know what happens in DB in the event of a cash discrepancy, be it positive or negative. I think the idea of someone not waiting for their change ticket being used to subsidise the guy who is 10c short at the driver's discretion is good. As long as a ticket is always issued.

-Chris-

ullu wrote: »

I hadn't given much thought to accessing the money, perhaps the issuing of change receipts?

I accept that it's possible to mishear a customer but the fact that it happened twice in quick succession in the city centre (i.e most people are going further than three stages and the driver knows it) led me to initially think he was up to no good.

I'm unsure as to what the actual criticism/suspicion is. In my understanding, the first time you were undercharged, in the second you were overcharged.

I've you're going to be "up to no good", you'd at the very least try and make sure all mistakes are in your favour (not that I'd suspect it from any DB driver).

parsi wrote: »

I think that the Mods should check this out - a posting from Foggy wherein he's not criticising Dublin Bus ?

Please report all bodysnatching-related posts for so that Victor can probe the issue...

meanmachine3

ullu wrote: »

When it was my turn, I put in my change and stated €2.20. He pressed the same button and when I checked the ticket, it was a €1.20.

i must bring this your attention ,while you may have paid the correct fare ullu and been issued with a lower price ticket. if an inspector had got on and checked your ticket you most probably would've been issued with a standard fare.
Standard Fare

What is a Standard Fare? Inspector writing out a standard fare

Random spot checks are carried out without warning on all Dublin Bus services. Dublin Bus officials inspect all customer tickets to check that they are valid. If you do not have a valid ticket, you will be issued with a standard fare which means you must pay a penalty of €50 within 21 days.

A ticket is not valid for the following reasons:

* You have not paid the correct cash fare Customer showing an inspector their ticket
* Your prepaid ticket is not in-date
* You do not have the required Photo Identity Card with a travel pass from the Department of Social and Family Affairs
* You do not have a CIE Photo Identity Card with your Adult, Scholar or Child prepaid ticket
* You do not have a valid, in-date Student Travelcard I.D. with your Student Travelwide prepaid ticket .

you might want to read the "fares" from the D.B. website.
http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/About-Us/Dublin-Bus-Bye-Laws/Fares/.
as you say you checked you ticket and it was a €1.20. in this case you should've brought it to the drivers attention immediately where they should've issued you with the proper ticket that you paid for.
just one for thought in the future.

cbl593h

Terrontress wrote: »

I notice that Translink drivers stopped going to a certain area of Belfast this week due to an armed robbery. Obviously the drivers and passengers are at such risk when cash is handed over. The Autofare is a very good system in this regard.

I remember being in Birmingham in the 90s and it was no change, no change ticket. Exact fare, prepaid or lose the difference. Might not be too bad for DB.

It would be interesting to know what happens in DB in the event of a cash discrepancy, be it positive or negative. I think the idea of someone not waiting for their change ticket being used to subsidise the guy who is 10c short at the driver's discretion is good. As long as a ticket is always issued.

Cardiff always has been exact fare no change tickets.

AlekSmart

Terrontress wrote: »

Obviously the drivers and passengers are at such risk when cash is handed over. The Autofare is a very good system in this regard......

I remember being in Birmingham in the 90s and it was no change, no change ticket. Exact fare, prepaid or lose the difference. Might not be too bad for DB.......

/QUOTE]

Make no mistake about it,the Autofare system system saved Dublins Bus services from almost total cessation at a time when it was looking more likel;y that a Driver would be murdered for his/her takings.

Autofare and the Assault Screen (An item I as a Driver,thoroughly detest) rearranged the playing field and allowed Busdrivers to do their job in a relative degree of safety.

That said,as Terrontress points out,we were incapable,in that somewhat typically Irish way,of introducing the tried,trusted and proven UK Autofare system.....instead,due it has to be said,to Political concerns over po`folks bein discommoded,we went and tinkered with it. :mad: