M4 Kilcock to Kinnegad Toll - not worth it

I drive this route occasionally and out of interest have done it both using the toll road and not using it. I reckon that it saves less than ten minutes allowing for the reduced speed limits and is not worth the 2.90 - especially seeing as you can rejoin the Galway and Sligo routes at 120kph after Kinnegad. I now don't bother using this toll road anymore.

As an aside the second toll motorway to Galway after Athlone is definitely worth it as it saves a lot of time.

what do you think?

ikb

Could not agree more. Its the dearest toll in the country anyway, and just to add insult, they charge me commercial rate... (Landcruiser). The old N4 is pretty good anyway, only trucks and a hand full of cars using it now anyway,

Mycroft H

Definitely not worth it at all.

The old N4 is a decent and capable of a high enough average speed

runway16

Really cant be bothered turning off the motorway to be honest. Thats just my choice, and obviously you do have one and can use the old N4.

It just depends on what you value as a driver - time, ease, etc etc

CIE

glasso wrote: »

I drive this route occasionally and out of interest have done it both using the toll road and not using it. I reckon that it saves less than ten minutes allowing for the reduced speed limits and is not worth the (€)2.90 - especially seeing as you can rejoin the Galway and Sligo routes at 120kph after Kinnegad. I now don't bother using this toll road anymore.

As an aside the second toll motorway to Galway after Athlone is definitely worth it as it saves a lot of time.

what do you think?

9.2 cent per kilometre? That's what you're complaining about?

You do have a point about the speed limit though. But you do have to take wear and tear of your car into consideration; the old road will put more on it, what with the gradients and curves being more severe, and of course the newer road surface versus older.

GTE

landyman wrote: »

Definitely not worth it at all.

The old N4 is a decent and capable of a high enough average speed

A lot of that road from Kilcock to Kinnegad is meant to be part of the new "safety camera" zones sadly.

Most of that old N4 could take 100. 80 is silly for the whole thing, but it is justified in parts.

GTE

CIE wrote: »

9.2 cent per kilometre? That's what you're complaining about?

You do have a point about the speed limit though. But you do have to take wear and tear of your car into consideration; the old road will put more on it, what with the gradients and curves being more severe, and of course the newer road surface versus older.

I personally don't see that as being a huge cost factor but I would imagine slower speeds equalling more MPG would cut a chunk into that cost. My car jumps from 45 to 57 MPG when going from motorway to the old N4.

munchkin_utd

bbk wrote: »

I personally don't see that as being a huge cost factor but I would imagine slower speeds equals more MPG would cut a chunk into that cost. My car jumps from 45 to 57 MPG when going from motorway to the old N4.

when your mpg increases, its BETTER!
i.e. an imperial english gallon, brings you an imperial 45 miles on the motorway.

but on the slower road, that gallon, brings you further, 57 miles.
So essentialy you can travel 12 of the imperial english miles more, for free.

now..... (slightly veering away off the topic)
the metric way IS a better way to measure economy than the old mpg as L/ 100km is EXACTLY the way you can measure the cost of driving
Is km what is used on ALL roads in Ireland - YES
Is Litres the unit of what petrol is sold in - YES

If I say 5L/100 km you know that it costs you €7.50 to get 100km down the road.
If I say 10L/100km thats €15 euro to get 100km down the road (or even better, without need for a calculator thats a cost of 15c per km!!)

anyhow.
you save fuel costs by going on the old road is the point im making!

CIE

bbk wrote: »

I personally don't see that as being a huge cost factor but I would imagine slower speeds equals more MPG would cut a chunk into that cost. My car jumps from 45 to 57 MPG when going from motorway to the old N4.

Slower speeds = higher mpg? That I have not heard, unless of course that's dependent upon your car's gearing; most cars have overdrive gears that allow better mileage at motorway speeds, so you must have a unique car or perhaps an older car (back in the old days, the government recommendation was to drive at 56 mph/90 km/h to maximise fuel economy). Another thing that can be done is have the car's computer checked. You sure this isn't merely perception?

A road with tighter curves that are not banked as much as on a motorway would also result in more need for braking and more acceleration out of the curves to bring the car back up to speed. Wear and tear results in quite high short-term costs, often in spite of regular maintenance being performed, and the more you can minimise this, the better. Another factor that will affect not only wear and tear but also mileage is cross traffic entering the two-lane road and cars leaving the road for which you have to apply brakes in both instances; this is nonexistent on a motorway, where the slip roads at interchanges allow for speeds to be maintained by both traffic remaining on the motorway and traffic entering and exiting.

KevR

I don't dodge the M4 toll because I only use the M4 occasionally but I would definitely dodge it if I had to make that journey regularly. €2.90 is outrageous compared to every other toll.

CIE

CIE wrote: »

Slower speeds = higher mpg? That I have not heard, unless of course that's dependent upon your car's gearing; most cars have overdrive gears that allow better mileage at motorway speeds, so you must have a unique car or perhaps an older car (back in the old days, the government recommendation was to drive at 56 mph/90 km/h to maximise fuel economy). Another thing that can be done is have the car's computer checked. You sure this isn't merely perception?

A road with tighter curves that are not banked as much as on a motorway would also result in more need for braking and more acceleration out of the curves to bring the car back up to speed. Wear and tear results in quite high short-term costs, often in spite of regular maintenance being performed, and the more you can minimise this, the better. Another factor that will affect not only wear and tear but also mileage is cross traffic entering the two-lane road and cars leaving the road for which you have to apply brakes in both instances; this is nonexistent on a motorway, where the slip roads at interchanges allow for speeds to be maintained by both traffic remaining on the motorway and traffic entering and exiting.

on the motorway most people are doing 120/125 which does us up more fuel than 80/85 kph. the old N4 is not that bad a road in terms of camber and there are not that many turns on that stretch (Kilcock Kinnegad).

anyway I'm not against all the toll roads - some like the Galway toll road are worth it as they bypass many towns and slow road stretches. just in my opinion the Kilcock-Kinnegad is worth nowhere near the 2.90 it currently costs. Real value imo would be about 1.30 - 1.40.

GTE

munchkin_utd wrote: »

when your mpg increases, its BETTER!
i.e. an imperial english gallon, brings you an imperial 45 miles on the motorway.

but on the slower road, that gallon, brings you further, 57 miles.
So essentialy you can travel 12 of the imperial english miles more, for free.

now..... (slightly veering away off the topic)
the metric way IS a better way to measure economy than the old mpg as L/ 100km is EXACTLY the way you can measure the cost of driving
Is km what is used on ALL roads in Ireland - YES
Is Litres the unit of what petrol is sold in - YES

If I say 5L/100 km you know that it costs you €7.50 to get 100km down the road.
If I say 10L/100km thats €15 euro to get 100km down the road (or even better, without need for a calculator thats a cost of 15c per km!!)

anyhow.
you save fuel costs by going on the old road is the point im making!

I don't want or need a lesson in l/100 km :rolleyes: Considering the car reads in miles on the trip computer I am more then comfortable working in MPG.

Anyway, what's in bold was the point I was tried to make. I'll revisit the post in case it is not clear enough.
Cheaper fuel costs for going the old road would save you the money, however little, going the old road would cost you in maintenance which is just wear and tear stuff at the end of the day with the fact its only a short stretch of good quality road being another factor.

With regards to CIE it is not perception.

The 5 speed Golf 1.9 VE TDI did 57mpg consistently when I was learning how to drive and could hit 60mpg if I tried hard enough.

Going at 120/130 on the motorway brings MPG down to the mid 40's as it's reving around the 3000rpm mark, add to that the car is fighting drag. The car is now primarily driven on motorways which is a big contrast to when I learned to drive for obvious reasons. The gearing of the car is not suited to motorway driving compared to its 6 speed variant found in the PD TDI's which I can imagine have a better ratio for the motorway.
However, since I do MPG checks at every fill up the weeks where I am not on the motorway bring me back up to 55 - 60mpg.

The engine has more then enough torque to pull out of the corners without having to floor it on the N4. I used that road almost every day before I moved to Belfast and with the volume of traffic and good driving technique you can easily see what you may need to brake for ahead and that limits wear there. Also, aside from the towns there are not many areas where you need to slow the car down from 80kph to take a turn. There is one by the Old Bog road between Kilcock and Enfield but that is the only bad corner on it until you reach the motorway again in Kinnegad.

SeanW

CIE wrote: »

9.2 cent per kilometre? That's what you're complaining about?

You can rationalise it that way if you like but €2.90 is still €2.90, which is too much for someone who A) isn't loaded, uses the N4 anything more than on an occasional basis.

-Corkie-

bbk wrote: »

A lot of that road from Kilcock to Kinnegad is meant to be part of the new "safety camera" zones sadly.

Most of that old N4 could take 100. 80 is silly for the whole thing, but it is justified in parts.

Great point and also anytime I used it I got stuck behind one of them dumper trucks or a farmer with a cow box. I know the 2.90 is expensive but I would rather arrive with my hair still intact..;)

runway16

SeanW wrote: »

You can rationalise it that way if you like but €2.90 is still €2.90, which is too much for someone who A) isn't loaded, uses the N4 anything more than on an occasional basis.

So 2.90 defines loadedness now? ;-)

No, you right, i'd be pissed off if i had to pay that each way, each day alright, but out of the total traffic, I doubt a very high percentage of users falls into that category. And at least you do have an option of using the old road, or using rail along that corridor which has a fairly decent service.

CIE

SeanW wrote: »

You can rationalise it that way if you like but €2.90 is still €2.90, which is too much for someone who A) isn't loaded, uses the N4 anything more than on an occasional basis.

Yes, and tax increases would be tax increases, if there were no tolls charged...which would be more onerous to pay, tell us? I'd say more motor fuel tax, since it would be paying for all the new roads (and old ones) at once, that you aren't using. With the M4, you know what you're getting for the nine odd cent per kilometre.

And do you need to be "loaded" to afford €23.20 per week nowadays (€29 for seven-day travel)? That's still cheap for a journey on a toll road of about 19 miles one-way. To drive from Le Havre to Paris using the A131, A13 and A14 autoroutes will cost you €18.70 in tolls, which is more expensive at 10.7c/km.

Capt'n Midnight

It's not €2.90

It's €5.80 , unless you are coming back a different route,
And that'll buy you a pint in most places.



The road surface on the N4 unless it's degraded a lot is better than many other N roads and it's fairly flat too. The difference between wear and tear isn't much unless you only travel on pristine roads.

Capt'n Midnight

CIE wrote: »

Yes, and tax increases would be tax increases, if there were no tolls charged...which would be more onerous to pay, tell us? I'd say more motor fuel tax, since it would be paying for all the new roads (and old ones) at once, that you aren't using. With the M4, you know what you're getting for the nine odd cent per kilometre.

Why not have the worst of both worlds


allow a private company to build a £30m bridge and toll the M50
then we can pay them hundreds of millions for the bridge with tax payers money, a bridge that would have been worthless if £300m of EU and taxpayers money hadn't build the roads at either end of the bridge

and the best bit is we still pay tolls

(yes I know the government were getting a kick back from the private tolls )

CIE

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Why not have the worst of both worlds

allow a private company to build a £30m bridge and toll the M50
then we can pay them hundreds of millions for the bridge with tax payers money, a bridge that would have been worthless if £300m of EU and taxpayers money hadn't build the roads at either end of the bridge

and the best bit is we still pay tolls

(yes I know the government were getting a kick back from the private tolls )

What currency is this in again, sterling or punts...? (Just for conversion purposes.) Also, "EU money" is also taxpayers' money, whether paid directly or borrowed. There's also the difference between capital costs and maintenance costs; even if a road artery or bridge might have been built with tax revenue or borrowed money, that doesn't mean it's invulnerable to traffic and the elements and doesn't need to be maintained.

Saruman

bbk wrote: »

A lot of that road from Kilcock to Kinnegad is meant to be part of the new "safety camera" zones sadly.

Most of that old N4 could take 100. 80 is silly for the whole thing, but it is justified in parts.

It does not appear on the map on the Garda site as an area of for the cameras. That said, I did get flashed by a van the other night while doing 100kph which was a perfectly safe speed for years. The only reason that road is 80kph his through the negligence of the county councils to request the road keep its 100kph speed limit when it was downgraded to an R road.

So now I will more than likely get penalty points. Fair enough I broke the speed limit but if the speed limit had been kept at its original and safe limit then I would not have been breaking the law.

TouchingVirus

CIE wrote: »

Yes, and tax increases would be tax increases, if there were no tolls charged...which would be more onerous to pay, tell us? I'd say more motor fuel tax, since it would be paying for all the new roads (and old ones) at once, that you aren't using. With the M4, you know what you're getting for the nine odd cent per kilometre.

And do you need to be "loaded" to afford €23.20 per week nowadays (€29 for seven-day travel)? That's still cheap for a journey on a toll road of about 19 miles one-way. To drive from Le Havre to Paris using the A131, A13 and A14 autoroutes will cost you €18.70 in tolls, which is more expensive at 10.7c/km.

You can't compare to French toll roads, they don't pay Motor Tax for starters..

I drove the M4 for a year when commuting, it costs a small fortune in both tolls and fuel consumption when driving a low engine size car (e.g. 1.0L to 1.4L) with a 5 speed transmission. My own car is at 3700 odd RPM doing 120km/h on that road - it takes 16 minutes from the time I join it until the time I leave it at that speed. The alternative way (the N4 to Kilcock) takes about 28 minutes doing the limit, slightly less if you want to run the risk of 90km/h.

At a cost of €2.90 for 12 minutes of time saved coupled with the increase in fuel consumption (and there's a fairly significant increase in consumption between 80 and 120 for the cars outline) it costs a little bit closer to €3.50-€4 to use the tolled road.

Then there's the increases they've had over the last number of years, It started off at €2.50, went to €2.70 the following year, the year after it went to €2.80 around October and on January 1st the following year it went to €2.90. F*ck them - I can drive to Middleton in Cork from the Palmerston and pay less than that, and it's a little bit more than 30km.

There's nothing wrong with the N4 either, it's a fine stretch of road with no more severe bend than the M4 and the road quality is grand. I expect that unless your car won't experience any significant wear and tear on it, nothing that justifies the robbery. The fact that it was downgraded to an R road in all but name without nobody actually fighting the RSA or whoever on it is a real shame - the country needs better lobbying on stuff like this.

I avoid tolls when it makes sense and avoiding the M4 toll road makes perfect sense to me.

CIE

TouchingVirus wrote: »

You can't compare to French toll roads, they don't pay Motor Tax for starters

UIM, motor tax doesn't go towards roads maintenance the same way that fuel taxes do. Also, petrol prices in France are a bit higher than in Ireland ATTOW, with about 70 percent of the price being tax.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

I drove the M4 for a year when commuting, it costs a small fortune in both tolls and fuel consumption when driving a low engine size car (e.g. 1.0L to 1.4L) with a 5 speed transmission. My own car is at 3700 odd RPM doing 120km/h on that road - it takes 16 minutes from the time I join it until the time I leave it at that speed. The alternative way (the N4 to Kilcock) takes about 28 minutes doing the limit, slightly less if you want to run the risk of 90km/h.

At a cost of €2.90 for 12 minutes of time saved coupled with the increase in fuel consumption (and there's a fairly significant increase in consumption between 80 and 120 for the cars outline) it costs a little bit closer to €3.50-€4 to use the tolled road.

Then there's the increases they've had over the last number of years, It started off at €2.50, went to €2.70 the following year, the year after it went to €2.80 around October and on January 1st the following year it went to €2.90. ... I can drive to Middleton in Cork from the Palmerston and pay less than that, and it's a little bit more than 30km.

There's nothing wrong with the N4 either, it's a fine stretch of road with no more severe bend than the M4 and the road quality is grand. I expect that unless your car won't experience any significant wear and tear on it, nothing that justifies the robbery. The fact that it was downgraded to an R road in all but name without nobody actually fighting the RSA or whoever on it is a real shame - the country needs better lobbying on stuff like this.

I avoid tolls when it makes sense and avoiding the M4 toll road makes perfect sense to me

OK...wait until your car is worn out from using the national route. If the M4 wasn't tolled, the taxes would go up.

I drove the N4 a number of times west of Maynooth in recent years, and it wasn't "grand" (and that had nothing to do with the amount of traffic on it, but its condition compared to a motorway); those roundabouts on the town bypasses are no fun either, and add to a car's wear and tear (just because you don't feel it immediately does not mean the effects are not coming)...and these roads still have cross- and T-junctions that will make you have to slow down for traffic either entering or (especially) leaving the main road. You also get stuck behind buses running locally, and of course there are the lorries that are ducking the toll (nowadays). And of course there are the impatient sort driving the opposite direction that will overtake right in your face, forcing you onto the shoulder...ah, the fun of "two-lane highways" (as they call them in Amerikay)...

Mycroft H

Saruman wrote: »

It does not appear on the map on the Garda site as an area of for the cameras. That said, I did get flashed by a van the other night while doing 100kph which was a perfectly safe speed for years. The only reason that road is 80kph his through the negligence of the county councils to request the road keep its 100kph speed limit when it was downgraded to an R road.

So now I will more than likely get penalty points. Fair enough I broke the speed limit but if the speed limit had been kept at its original and safe limit then I would not have been breaking the law.

The section between enfield and kilcock (with the big yellow signs) has been 80kph/50mph for the better part of 10-12 years now.


The rest of it between enfield and kinnegad can easily take 100kph though

n97 mini

I saw on a blog somewhere that the increased speed on the M4 vs the N4 was costing the blogger in extra fuel too, something like 75 cent, and that sticking to the speed limit on both roads the difference between them was only 5 minutes.

I know people who use this toll ten times a week.

A tolled motorway network is FF's legacy. It's so that we will never forget them.

Saruman

landyman wrote: »

The section between enfield and kilcock (with the big yellow signs) has been 80kph/50mph for the better part of 10-12 years now.


The rest of it between enfield and kinnegad can easily take 100kph though

Fully aware of that yeah. That is why I specified the 100kph speed limit.

In my case it was between Enfield and Clonard. Speed limit was always 60mph then 100kph.

Mycroft H

Saruman wrote: »

Fully aware of that yeah. That is why I specified the 100kph speed limit.

In my case it was between Enfield and Clonard. Speed limit was always 60mph then 100kph.

Ahh my bad, forgot about that

I rarely go beyond moyvalley :pac:

westtip

KevR wrote: »

I don't dodge the M4 toll because I only use the M4 occasionally but I would definitely dodge it if I had to make that journey regularly. €2.90 is outrageous compared to every other toll.

same as - and if not in a hurry, but i do find I have driven past the Kilcock turnoff before I have considered it - so stuck with the toll - but 2.90 buys half a breakfast at Mother Hubbards. I was once coming back West on a monday morning and did decided to toll dodge was amazed at the sheer volume using the east bound old N4 from Enfield in, that was about a year ago. In other words regular commuters simply can't afford to stump up this amount every day. Certainly if I commuted in from Kinnegad/Enfield etc I would not use the toll on a daily basis. 5.80 a day, say 45 weeks of the year = 1305 net, gross up - say 2,000 a year for a PAYE worker - its a big hit. its one the reasons I don't buy a paper every day anymore! these things as they say add up!

I reckon you will see more and more punters coming off this section of the motorway over the next year or so - any regular drivers on the route think the same?

My guess is traffic volumes are less now with the recession, and the road provider must be getting less than they budgeted for.

ongarboy

westtip wrote: »

same as - and if not in a hurry 2.90 buys half a breakfast at Mother Hubbards. I was once coming back West on a monday morning and did decided to toll dodge was amazed at the sheer volume using the east bound old N4 from Enfield in. In other words regular commuters simply can't afford to stump up this amount every day.

I agree if you are a frequent or daily user of this road then the cost is quite prohibitive. A seldom user like myself would pay the toll although I don't understand why it is a euro or more dearer than any of the other tolls outside Dublin. One thing I haven't seen anyone highlight on this thread is the safety benefits of using the M4. Head on collisions are virtually ruled out. Overtaking opportunities are available at all times without any of the risks on single lane roads. While using the old N4 can be fine if you have no obstructions, you can still be stuck behind a tractor/slow driver/cyclists etc if there is a lot of oncoming traffic. These are the benefits of paying the toll for me!

CIE

westtip wrote: »

same as - and if not in a hurry, but i do find I have driven past the Kilcock turnoff before I have considered it - so stuck with the toll - but 2.90 buys half a breakfast at Mother Hubbards. I was once coming back West on a monday morning and did decided to toll dodge was amazed at the sheer volume using the east bound old N4 from Enfield in, that was about a year ago. In other words regular commuters simply can't afford to stump up this amount every day

It's going to be less affordable if they keep jamming up the old N4. The repair bills on their cars are guaranteed to rise. Are people making that much less money that €29 per week can't be spared, especially since you're paying far more than that to fill the tank and still more than that to replace brakes, worry about worn clutch plates, repair/replace suspension parts etc., all of which will have to be performed more often by driving the old road? (and those repairs will have to come out of the credit card if money is really that tight) But by all means, if tax increases are really that affordable to pay for the motorway's upkeep, lobby for those (of course, all that excise tax like that big 4c/litre increase, never mind the "carbon tax", is so affordable, so let's have more of that)...not that anyone would use the motorway if it's toll-free, according to some of the reasoning on here, right?—but people are still using the motorway where the tolls are deemed "reasonable" (cheap), so it's not any of that at all.

westtip wrote: »

Certainly if I commuted in from Kinnegad/Enfield etc I would not use the toll on a daily basis. 5.80 a day, say 45 weeks of the year = 1305 net, gross up - say 2,000 a year for a PAYE worker - its a big hit. its one the reasons I don't buy a paper every day anymore! these things as they say add up!

I reckon you will see more and more punters coming off this section of the motorway over the next year or so - any regular drivers on the route think the same?

My guess is traffic volumes are less now with the recession, and the road provider must be getting less than they budgeted for.

There are tacit admissions on this thread of frequent motorway use not related to concerns about fuel economy, so long as the tolls are perceived as cheap. So it's not any other concern. Has average income dropped that low?

Oh, not everyone has the luxury of working 45 weeks out of 52 weeks in a year.

SeanW

Someone never told CIE about "discretionary income" and, these days, how there is a lot less of it around.

Some people are on a crappy salary or are unemployed.
Some people are deep in negative equity or are otherwise heavily indebted.
Some people are running businesses that are struggling to survive.
Some people for whatever other reason, have to watch their discretionary spending, and have to do without a Starbucks coffee, daily newspaper, Sky+ HD, expensive but easily avoidable toll or whatever.

There are tacit admissions on this thread of frequent motorway use not related to concerns about fuel economy, so long as the tolls are perceived as cheap. So it's not any other concern. Has average income dropped that low?

Nothing tacit about it - people dodge the toll to save money on the toll. Not everyone has CIEs luxury of thinking that kind of money is irrelevant.

Rationalise it anyway you like, but the hordes of traffic one can often see getting off the M4 at J8 and forming a convoy into Co. Meath, is a testament to a policy that has failed. You can also speculate all you like about the costs of alternative tax hikes, but the continued operation of the toll-free M4, N4 dual carriageways, the M9, most of the M50 etc not to mention all the other roads in the State, isn't exactly putting the government in the poor house, is it?

CIE

SeanW wrote: »

Someone never told CIE about "discretionary income" and, these days, how there is a lot less of it around.

Some people are on a crappy salary or are unemployed.
Some people are deep in negative equity or are otherwise heavily indebted.
Some people are running businesses that are struggling to survive.
Some people for whatever other reason, have to watch their discretionary spending, and have to do without a Starbucks coffee, daily newspaper, Sky+ HD, expensive but easily avoidable toll or whatever

False argument. Mischaracterising payment of tolls as "discretionary spending" won't make the matter suddenly valid, nor will it make the problem of automobile wear and tear disappear.

SeanW wrote: »

Nothing tacit about it - people dodge the toll to save money on the toll. Not everyone has CIEs luxury of thinking that kind of money is irrelevant

OK, so it's not tacit but open.

SeanW wrote: »

Rationalise it anyway you like, but the hordes of traffic one can often see getting off the M4 at J8 and forming a convoy into Co. Meath, is a testament to a policy that has failed. You can also speculate all you like about the costs of alternative tax hikes, but the continued operation of the toll-free M4, N4 dual carriageways, the M9, most of the M50 etc not to mention all the other roads in the State, isn't exactly putting the government in the poor house, is it?

So now they're "hordes of traffic"? How slow are these "hordes" driving thanks to being "hordes"...? because that is going to make fuel consumption go up more than driving on the motorway. (As well as wear and tear.) Car repairs are a bigger dent in "discretionary spending" than toll payments. And imagine if more roads were tolled, and you can consequently pay lower fuel tax? That would make your expenses go down across the board, giving you more money for not only tolls but discretionary spending...

And how do you know that the toll-free motorways aren't "putting the government in the poorhouse"? Do drivers dodge these roads to allegedly increase their mileage as well...? (But it's only at the perceived high-toll location that they get off the motorway. So fascinating.)

It wasn't me that was "rationalising", BTW.

westtip

CIE wrote: »

It's going to be less affordable if they keep jamming up the old N4. The repair bills on their cars are guaranteed to rise. Are people making that much less money that €29 per week can't be spared, especially since you're paying far more than that to fill the tank and still more than that to replace brakes, worry about worn clutch plates, repair/replace suspension parts etc., all of which will have to be performed more often by driving the old road? (and those repairs will have to come out of the credit card if money is really that tight) But by all means, if tax increases are really that affordable to pay for the motorway's upkeep, lobby for those (of course, all that excise tax like that big 4c/litre increase, never mind the "carbon tax", is so affordable, so let's have more of that)...not that anyone would use the motorway if it's toll-free, according to some of the reasoning on here, right?—but people are still using the motorway where the tolls are deemed "reasonable" (cheap), so it's not any of that at all.There are tacit admissions on this thread of frequent motorway use not related to concerns about fuel economy, so long as the tolls are perceived as cheap. So it's not any other concern. Has average income dropped that low?

Oh, not everyone has the luxury of working 45 weeks out of 52 weeks in a year.

€29 a week maintenance because you choose to go down the old N4 - you are having a laugh aren't you. My 45 weeks was based on 5 weeks holiday and or sickness plus the national holidays taking off, you can add another couple of weeks if you want - it only makes the economic argument stronger.

I was listening to morning ireland this morning my ears pricked up - I am sure AA Roadwatch said traffic inbound on the N4 between Enfield and Kilcock was exceptionally heavy - Ah toll dodgers I thought. did anyone else hear that?

People aren't making less money in their gross wages but net wages thanks to the social injustice charges are down - people are looking very carefully at outgoings if they can save €29 a week that is significant.

ohnoigotsick

westtip wrote: »

I was listening to morning ireland this morning my ears pricked up - I am sure AA Roadwatch said traffic inbound on the N4 between Enfield and Kilcock was exceptionally heavy - Ah toll dodgers I thought. did anyone else hear that?

Road crash , one person dead - may explain the heavy traffic.

Saruman

ohnoigotsick wrote: »

Road crash , one person dead - may explain the heavy traffic.

That was the day before. Yesterday was fine. There was a point where traffic came to a halt for a few minutes but I suspect its because a slow bus pulled out in front of the queue of traffic and that sent a ripple of brake lights to the point where traffic stopped. Phantom traffic jam.

There was a bus at the front of the traffic queue and nothing in front of it.

westtip

ohnoigotsick wrote: »

Road crash , one person dead - may explain the heavy traffic.

sorry to hear that - I am an occassional user of the route and TBH tend to use the motorway simply because I drive past the junction before I realise it, but safety I guess is the main reason for staying on the motorway, but the cost is pretty harsh on daily commuters.

SeanW

CIE wrote: »

False argument. Mischaracterising payment of tolls as "discretionary spending" won't make the matter suddenly valid, nor will it make the problem of automobile wear and tear disappear.

Well, I bought my first car, a 99 Avensis back in 2009 and since then I've done a fair bit of semi-long distance travel, and a lot of hard city/rural driving. In particular I've been using the N4/R148 on a semi-regular basis for a while now. I've spent shag all on car maintenance but saved easily €100 so far dodging tolls mainly the M4 one, and I doubt very strongly that I've racked up anything resembling €2.90/trip in wear and tear using the R148 Kilcock-Kinnegad.

It's a luxury.

OK, so it's not tacit but open.So now they're "hordes of traffic"? How slow are these "hordes" driving thanks to being "hordes"...? because that is going to make fuel consumption go up more than driving on the motorway. (As well as wear and tear.)

I can't speak for them as I normally go against the flow and see this rolling monument to policy failure going the other direction. Although not always

Car repairs are a bigger dent in "discretionary spending" than toll payments.

Maybe if you have a super-crappy car, like a 20 year old Fiat or a Lada. Your argument is irrelevant to anyone who drives a Toyota for example. Also car repairs are not "discretionary spending" if your car needs to be fixed, it needs to be fixed, end of. It's not like a daily newspaper, visit to a cafe or a night on the beer, which are discretionary. Interesting that you now admit tolls are discretionary spending as you earlier accused me - quite stunningly I thought - of "Mischaracterising payment of tolls as "discretionary spending""

And how do you know that the toll-free motorways aren't "putting the government in the poorhouse"?

Five minutes on Google will prove otherwise, here's a quick graph showing government expenditure by department for 2010.

http://www.sliabh.net/?p=2397

Transport is one of those little unmarked white slivers amounting to less than 5%. And that's the total transport budget of which motorway maintenance is likely only a small fraction. You're grasping at straws.

Do drivers dodge these roads to allegedly increase their mileage as well...? (But it's only at the perceived high-toll location that they get off the motorway. So fascinating.)

I don't think anyone gets off the motorway to save fuel as you can always stay in the driving lane and do 90kph. Any fuel savings associated with lower speeds on R roads is a bonus, nothing more. People get off the motorway to avoid the toll - that much has been made fairly clear, I don't understand you confusion on that point.

It wasn't me that was "rationalising", BTW.

If you say so ...

Loveless

n97 mini wrote: »

I saw on a blog somewhere that the increased speed on the M4 vs the N4 was costing the blogger in extra fuel too, something like 75 cent, and that sticking to the speed limit on both roads the difference between them was only 5 minutes. I know people who use this toll ten times a week. A tolled motorway network is FF's legacy. It's so that we will never forget them.

Just to let you know, the tolls are now reduced on the M4 following the M1 court decision last week.
Down to only €4.10 for me each way now, bargain!

http://www.eurolink-m4.ie/index.aspx?menu=2&context=1

westtip

Came back from Bray area the other day - mid week left early on Wednesday morning around 6.35 am departure straigth onto M11/M50/N4 seamless wonderful - but left without breakfast, dipped off the N4 at Kilcock to head for Mother Hubards, Traffic streaming inbound astonished me!

€5.99 two rashers, two sausages, two eggs, black and white pudding - large pot of tea more than enough brown bread, and toast and butter and jam than I could cater for - plus a Free copy of the Indo to take away and enough tea in the pot to fill my flask mug for the car.

Save €2.70 on the single toll journey, total "cost" of breakfast: €3.29 Great value!

In future this will be my option - if I have the time!

Spoke to a couple of truckers - both private truck owners - never use the toll simply cannot afford it four or five times a week. spoke to a white van man chippy, no chance he said, only if I am in a mega hurry will I use the toll it just costs too much over a long period of time.

My observation of the volume of traffic coming down the slip road to join the inbound N4 at Kilcock and the simple fact that between the time I was on the old N4 from Kilcock to Mother Hubards, the stream of traffic was a car every 20 yards coming inbound - would seem to suggest that car commuters from the Kinegad/Enfield environs are simply not using the toll road in very large numbers. It was almost impossible to overtake westbound due to the volume of inbound traffic - it's as if the motorway does not exist - As said if in a hurry and on a tight schedule I will use the Motorway for my occasional trips to Das Kapital but the value for money is in the breakfast and taking life a bit easier.

Saruman

As Loveless said, The M4 is now €2.70 for a car! It has actually dropped by .20c

westtip

Saruman wrote: »

As Loveless said, The M4 is now €2.70 for a car! It has actually dropped by .20c

amended my figure from 2.80 to 2.70 - I know what you mean but it is simply apparent from the times I have used the alternative route early mornings going west that the M4 is not bringing in a very a large number of daily commuters from the Enfield Kinnegad area. Yes of course the M4 has volume on it but I reckon it must be operating massively below capacity. I just wonder if they dropped the toll significantly - and I mean really cut the price -would pile them high sell them cheap actually work better as a business model. If for example it was €1 to use the road for a car - would this shift the toll dodgers onto the motorway in high enough volume?

Saruman

Perhaps a daily commuter special price. Get a Tag if you have not got one and if you live along the commuter route then and depend on the road then you only get charged that €1 each way.

Not sure that is likely though.

westtip

Saruman wrote: »

Perhaps a daily commuter special price. Get a Tag if you have not got one and if you live along the commuter route then and depend on the road then you only get charged that €1 each way.

Not sure that is likely though.

Its no skin off my nose what they do - I am not one of the unfortunates using this route daily. If I use it once a month that would be the most, but I am convinced the route is failing as a business judging by the volume using the old road. Your idea Saruman is creative - but it requires the users to be proactive to get a Tag, and many may not want to do this. Many TAG users may not be as price sensitive, (business expense perhaps or simply don't care about the cost). Price and elasticity of demand come to mind though. I reckon the pricing on the M4 is a huge issue for potential regular users, and to attract in those regular customers the M4 is missing out on they are either going to do something about it or just accept the situation, but the current volumes mean the new road is massively under utilised.

L1011

There isn't enough dodging traffic for reducing the toll drastically to actually pay off, its not like the M6 Toll in the UK where about 80% of the potential traffic uses the M6 Free and the toll is ridiculously high.

If they could bring it below the €2 barrier it'd seem less bad, ditto the €4 level for light commercials (which would be comparatively much less of a drop).

westtip

MYOB wrote: »

There isn't enough dodging traffic for reducing the toll drastically to actually pay off, its not like the M6 Toll in the UK where about 80% of the potential traffic uses the M6 Free and the toll is ridiculously high.

If they could bring it below the €2 barrier it'd seem less bad, ditto the €4 level for light commercials (which would be comparatively much less of a drop).

I dunno not seen the numbers, but have seen the masses of vehicles inbound early in the morning on the old N4 and also witnessed just how quiet the motorway is inbound at the same time, it suggests to me a high volume is toll dodging, especially commuters. It would be interesting to see the actual vehicle count in the mornings joining at Kilkock and the numbers on the road between Enfield and Kilcock. I am sure they must have the figures, in the meantime I will stick with my deal at Mother Hubbards!

L1011

The motorway loses ~16,000 of its ~39,000 AADT at the Kilcock junction. Not all of this is toll dodge traffic - some is heading to Clane/Naas or Trim/Summerhill/Athboy as well as Kilcock itself.

10k or less compared to 23k on the motorway, some of that 10k will never, ever use the toll unless its made entirely free.

westtip

MYOB wrote: »

The motorway loses ~16,000 of its ~39,000 AADT at the Kilcock junction. Not all of this is toll dodge traffic - some is heading to Clane/Naas or Trim/Summerhill/Athboy as well as Kilcock itself.

10k or less compared to 23k on the motorway, some of that 10k will never, ever use the toll unless its made entirely free.

are these vehicle per day figures? would be interested to see a vehicle count from Enfield to Kilcock in the mornings and the amount joining the M4 at Kilcock eastbound between 7.00 and 9.00 am - I bet its significant.

L1011

They are.

There's time of day figures too, its all on the NRA website, knock yourself out. Just remember that not all traffic exiting at Kilcock is going to use the R148 as I said - Naas/Clane and Trim/Summerhill as well as Kilcock itself use this.