Public Servants & Quango Staff - Time to UNITE

The Nark

Firstly - I'm A-Political, I strongly believe that all politicians are both conmen, conwomen & crooks. Nest featherers!!!

I've just had a Fine Gael canvasser call to my home. I put the point to him that, as a long serving public servant (a leper in society), I would be like the proverbial turkey voting for Christmas if I voted Fine Gael.

He was very polite, shook my hand & thanked me for my honesty. A bit too smug, I thought to myself.

As he was about to leave, I said to him "I realise that losing my vote obviously doesn't seem to bother you, but there are 5 other votes in this house, my extended family, my wife's family etc., etc. And then there are about 250,000 other public servant lepers and their families and extended families... then there's the Quango lepers... " I think, for just a moment, that I got his attention.

So, perhaps the time has come for public servants to use their greatest weapon, their vote!!!

Vote for anyone but Fine Gael... force a coalition government. Don't give them an easy ride or mark my words, Fine Gael will crucify the ordinary working man, the public servant, the unfortunate unemployed, lone parents, etc., etc., etc.

Fine Gael are and always have been the party of the well off.

gandalf

From my point of view Fine Gael are the only party to commit to sorting out the waste within the Public Service especially the HSE. That is why they have my first preference vote. I would hazard to guess that a large number of citizens will be voting in a similar manner because of the bad return we get from our public services.

longgrass

You will have to account to your customers, whatever branch of the PS you are in. No more will the PS be a cosy protected semi retirement Shangri La land for many.

If FG dont deliver on reform in the PS per CPA, the IMF/EU funds for September will not be forthcoming.

Result, ALL government payments will have to be slashed by 40%, in line with taxes raised from October.

Your choice is limited thanks to FF. Labour is in denial and SF are bonkers in fairytale land.

So, do you want to agree to reality now or have it implemented without your agreement?

Kristopherus

gandalf wrote: »

From my point of view Fine Gael are the only party to commit to sorting out the waste within the Public Service especially the HSE. That is why they have my first preference vote. I would hazard to guess that a large number of citizens will be voting in a similar manner because of the bad return we get from our public services.

Well it will be very interesting how long you will have to wait for an appointment with any public service when FG have got rid of all those nasty timewasters in the civil & public service:rolleyes::rolleyes: FG will need to be very careful as to how they will retain the huge extra support they are now gaining. They sure don't want to become the FF of 2011 in the 2016 GE.

GSF

I've got to believe that many PS workers want reform of the public sector. This must be especially true for hard working frontline staff. The OP must be part of the managerial admin cadre if he (?) is totally dedicated to the status quo.

Ironic that he accuses politicans of being "nest featherers"!

Kristopherus

Kristopherus wrote: »

Well it will be very interesting how long you will have to wait for an appointment with any public service when FG have got rid of all those nasty timewasters in the civil & public service:rolleyes::rolleyes: FG will need to be very careful as to how they will retain the huge extra support they are now gaining. They sure don't want to become the FF of 2011 in the 2016 GE.

Are you trying to say that the PS can possibly become LESS efficient?

Idbatterim

The Nark, I dont know what area you are in, but this us or them attitude is ridiculous, billions are being wasted in public service, Im sure you know of many colleagues that are overpaid and underworked, overpensioned, yet you agree with this?

The Nark

gandalf wrote: »

From my point of view Fine Gael are the only party to commit to sorting out the waste within the Public Service especially the HSE. That is why they have my first preference vote. I would hazard to guess that a large number of citizens will be voting in a similar manner because of the bad return we get from our public services.

Point taken...

No one denies that there is waste... Hopefully F.G. will start at the top and regulate the pay of the multi-millionaire consultants who earn €220k + p.a. for providing a part time service, earn double what their counterparts in Sweden earn and use beds in public hospitals to treat their private patients.

Meanwhile, the current crooks are trying to take away the wages of 4th year trainee nurses... A smoke screen to deflect attention while they sidle out of office with their criminally inflated pensions...

GSF

GSF wrote: »

I've got to believe that many PS workers want reform of the public sector. This must be especially true for hard working frontline staff. The OP must be part of the managerial admin cadre if he (?) is totally dedicated to the status quo.

Ironic that he accuses politicans of being "nest featherers"!

As a FG canvasser that is what I've been saying to the frontline staff. To the admin staff I can only ask them do they really believe that a party such as Labour can avoid these cuts. And they don't. Most sane people realise that public spending isn't being cut for the craic. You aren't being treated as 'lepers', simply we don't have the money to keep the best paid public service in Europe any more. I don't see why you can't understand that.

Tragedy

The unfortunate problem with both political parties and the general public, is that they don't differentiate from lower grade staff(especially Grade III and Grade IV) and middle/upper management.

I.e. they'll sack 30,000 staff, but most of them will be lower grades leaving all the high paid bloat. Or cut wages across the board by 5%, rather than a graduated scheme.

HSE needs a scalpel taken to it to get it working and giving value for money, not a political hatchet job.

Kristopherus

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Are you trying to say that the PS can possibly become LESS efficient?

Most of the so-called wastage that FG are talking about are Back Office staff. And when FG talk about this same PS, you can include the Civil service and Local Authorities in that. I'll bet my gaff that with 30,000 of those gone, the customer will be talking to a hell of a lot more machines post 2016. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone. Its just my perception of the landscape post the purge.

gandalf

The Nark wrote: »

Point taken...

No one denies that there is waste... Hopefully F.G. will start at the top and regulate the pay of the multi-millionaire consultants who earn €220k + p.a. for providing a part time service, earn double what their counterparts in Sweden earn and use beds in public hospitals to treat their private patients.

Meanwhile, the current crooks are trying to take away the wages of 4th year trainee nurses... A smoke screen to deflect attention while they sidle out of office with their criminally inflated pensions...

I am talking about the admin especially in the HSE which is bloated with unnecessary staff, inflexibility and lack of corporate responsibility. The consultants are a problem but they are not the main problem.

As for taking wages of final year nurses who are working on the wards of this countries hospitals that is a disgrace but it is happening because the outgoing government went after an easy target instead of addressing areas like the HR dept in the HSE which has around 2000 employees when the head of that area admits he only needs 700! I am quite positive that the wages of the 1300 unnecessary staff will more than cover the final year wages of those trainee nurses. Then we have the 1500+ middle managers who were guaranteed jobs when the HSE formed despite the fact that there were no jobs for them.

femur61

The Nark wrote: »

Firstly - As he was about to leave, I said to him "I realise that losing my vote obviously doesn't seem to bother you, but there are 5 other votes in this house, my extended family, my wife's family etc., etc. And then there are about 250,000 other public servant lepers and their families and extended families... then there's the Quango lepers... " I think, for just a moment, that I got his attention.

So, perhaps the time has come for public servants to use their greatest weapon, their vote!!!
.
.

No, you wouldn't be a turkey voting for christmas you'd be a child voting for santa. If all the wasters and quangos were eiliminated think of how efficient the HSE, education system would be. We could pride ourselves as a nation, our children wouldn't have to emigrate. Think about it we have one of the highest paid and largest PS in europe, we have a small population with rising unemployment, consequently as we all well know taxes are not being taken in to sustain the PS numbers at present. No matter who gets into government believe me there will be job cuts, FG are just laying their cards on the table honestly.

mikemac

Can they not use an appraisal system?

Everyone gets a score and if you're like me, lots of "must do better" comments :pac:

When there were redundancies in our place they used the appraisal system and selected the weakest members.
PDMS I believe is what it is called in the public service.
Best staff stay, worst leave and maybe for the best as they can do something they are better at. This is including top management also

But I know everyone will fight their corner and I supposed if anyone goes, it'll be the easiest targets so the junior staff

The Nark

GSF wrote: »

I've got to believe that many PS workers want reform of the public sector. This must be especially true for hard working frontline staff. The OP must be part of the managerial admin cadre if he (?) is totally dedicated to the status quo.

Ironic that he accuses politicans of being "nest featherers"!

You couldn't be further from the truth... A-political in the public service means that, whatever your skill level, you are doomed to work at the bottom of the barrell or near enough to it.

I may be a nest featherer of sorts, but over a long number of years, I've worked long & hard at my job & even if I say so myself, I've been a GOOD Public Servant.

At this point in time, I'm just sick of every Tom, Dick & Harry having a cut off me.

During the Celtic Tiger years, I stayed in my safe public service job, earning my steady but small salary while my friends drove their new 520Ds & Audis & their wifes had the 4WD for collecting the kids from school.

Now that the time has come to pay for their luxury lifestyles, their foreign properties etc, it's time to blame the peasants in the PS.

Of course there's a huge need for PS reform but let's not be afraid to start at the very top.

Imagine this. If Kenny becomes Taoiseach, he will earn more than the UK Prime Minister & the German Chancelor. And he will have his school teacher's pension to prop him up.

Flimbos

The reality is that billions are being wasted in the public service and FG seem to be the only party serious about addressing this. Michael Noonan has actually gone way up in my estimation in recent days with his refusal to sugarcoat FG proposals this close to an election.

I have seen first hand a broken and disgraceful health service with front line staff severely under-resourced and completely stressed out, while many of the admin staff working in the same department have no work to do on a day to day basis.

You can put your head in the sand and say you'll protect everyone's jobs and wages but we simply cannot afford not to fix the PS, the money isn't there anymore.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

irishh_bob

The Nark wrote: »

Firstly - I'm A-Political, I strongly believe that all politicians are both conmen, conwomen & crooks. Nest featherers!!!

I've just had a Fine Gael canvasser call to my home. I put the point to him that, as a long serving public servant (a leper in society), I would be like the proverbial turkey voting for Christmas if I voted Fine Gael.

He was very polite, shook my hand & thanked me for my honesty. A bit too smug, I thought to myself.

As he was about to leave, I said to him "I realise that losing my vote obviously doesn't seem to bother you, but there are 5 other votes in this house, my extended family, my wife's family etc., etc. And then there are about 250,000 other public servant lepers and their families and extended families... then there's the Quango lepers... " I think, for just a moment, that I got his attention.

So, perhaps the time has come for public servants to use their greatest weapon, their vote!!!

Vote for anyone but Fine Gael... force a coalition government. Don't give them an easy ride or mark my words, Fine Gael will crucify the ordinary working man, the public servant, the unfortunate unemployed, lone parents, etc., etc., etc.

Fine Gael are and always have been the party of the well off.

if FG are the party of the well off , then its obvious , you and your 350,000 family should vote for them

Tragedy

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

The key part of your post is average. Between 01/04 and 01/10, my job in the HSE went up by less than 18%. Clerical Officer grades all went up by around the same percentage.

So far, they've been hitting everyone in the public service with the same paycuts - rather than targeting those who benefited the most in the last 10 years.

irishh_bob

The Nark wrote: »

You couldn't be further from the truth... A-political in the public service means that, whatever your skill level, you are doomed to work at the bottom of the barrell or near enough to it.

I may be a nest featherer of sorts, but over a long number of years, I've worked long & hard at my job & even if I say so myself, I've been a GOOD Public Servant.

At this point in time, I'm just sick of every Tom, Dick & Harry having a cut off me.

During the Celtic Tiger years, I stayed in my safe public service job, earning my steady but small salary while my friends drove their new 520Ds & Audis & their wifes had the 4WD for collecting the kids from school.

Now that the time has come to pay for their luxury lifestyles, their foreign properties etc, it's time to blame the peasants in the PS.

Of course there's a huge need for PS reform but let's not be afraid to start at the very top.

Imagine this. If Kenny becomes Taoiseach, he will earn more than the UK Prime Minister & the German Chancelor. And he will have his school teacher's pension to prop him up.

that load of cobblers hasnt worked in at least two years , the public sector was ( on average ) better paid than the private sector right throughout the boom , the union trick of potraying brigid the clerical officer on 25 k per year as being typical of the public sector and sean dunne as being typical of the private sector has long since been found out

Tragedy

irishh_bob wrote: »

that load of cobblers hasnt worked in at least two years , the public sector was ( on average ) better paid than the private sector right throughout the boom , the union trick of potraying brigid the clerical officer on 25 k per year as being typical of the public sector and sean dunne as being typical of the private sector has long since been found out

My sister went from a HR job in a supermarket to a HR job in the HSE in 2006(just bought a house on her own, wanted the security).
She took a 30% pay cut, and the differential in pay only increased(and is still increasing). She was happy with this, because she felt the pay difference was made up by the added security as she had a solo mortgage.

Comparing the average PS wage with the average Private Sector wage was shown to be a fallacy by people vastly more intelligent than me long ago.

NewHillel

The Nark wrote: »

Firstly - I'm A-Political, I strongly believe that all politicians are both conmen, conwomen & crooks. Nest featherers!!!

Firstly - what the heck is an "A-Political"?? Sounds like a spinoff from the "A-Team". Maybe you mean apolitical? If you check the definition of same it most certainly doesn't match your post.

The Nark wrote: »

Vote for anyone but Fine Gael... force a coalition government. Don't give them an easy ride or mark my words, Fine Gael will crucify the ordinary working man, the public servant, the unfortunate unemployed, lone parents, etc., etc., etc.

The typical "public servant", is very far removed from the "the ordinary working man, the public servant, the unfortunate unemployed, lone parents, etc., etc., etc. A shake-up is very long overdue. Bring it on, I say.
(If the downsizing is done properly the genuine public servants, and there are many, will be recognised and will thrive. I suggest you address your efforts to ensuring that this is what actually happens. )

Birroc

A vote for Labour is a vote for the unions who are crippling this country. A Lab/FG government will probably not be able to agree on serious reform and just go thru the motions for 3/4 years while the country slides into ruin. A FG minority government might work for a while and make some real progress but they will become as unpopular as FF and get destroyed in the next election. SF will probably get in then! I think I will vote for a 'national' independent with FG/Green/Lab next preferences but decent independents do not exist in every constituency. Its a tough one.

amen

I am talking about the admin especially in the HSE which is bloated with unnecessary staff, inflexibility and lack of corporate responsibility. The consultants are a problem but they are not the main problem

infelxibility thats the problem.

What aren't hospitals open for procedures 24*7*365? Why have procedure rooms empty 2 days out of 7 ?

Why can't everyone get time appointments?

lack of corporate responsibility

no one wants to say stop thats wrong or yes I messed up, heres what happened and this what we will do to ensure it doesn't happen again.

I agree lower paid civil servants need to be looked after. Its time to go after those on large salaries and those who have no work.

If HSE HR only needs 700 and has 2000 then sack 1300 and if no the redploy them to where they are need i.e social welfare.

Although why do they need 700 in HR ? thast 142 hse staff members for each HR person. (assuming 100,000 employed by HSE)

There should be automation and reduce the 700 to 300 :-)

NewHillel

Birroc wrote: »

A vote for Labour is a vote for the unions who are crippling this country. A Lab/FG government will probably not be able to agree on serious reform and just go thru the motions for 3/4 years while the country slides into ruin. A FG minority government might work for a while and make some real progress but they will become as unpopular as FF and get destroyed in the next election. SF will probably get in then! I think I will vote for a 'national' independent with FG/Green/Lab next preferences but decent independents do not exist in every constituency. Its a tough one.

You're right, its a tough one. I'll be voting FG but I have to say that I have little confidence in Enda as Taoiseach. I'm not belittling what he achieved with FG on the ground, but he has a very poor public persona. I sincerely hope he will rise to to the occasion.

mayotom

The Nark wrote: »

Vote for anyone but Fine Gael... force a coalition government. Don't give them an easy ride or mark my words, Fine Gael will crucify the ordinary working man, the public servant, the unfortunate unemployed, lone parents, etc., etc., etc.

Fine Gael are and always have been the party of the well off.

so you would prefer to cripple the country, we can't afford to maintain the current spending/waste, if we do, then we default, then the jobs will be gone anyway, so what choice do you really have

Birroc wrote: »

A vote for Labour is a vote for the unions who are crippling this country. A Lab/FG government will probably not be able to agree on serious reform and just go thru the motions for 3/4 years while the country slides into ruin. A FG minority government might work for a while and make some real progress but they will become as unpopular as FF and get destroyed in the next election. SF will probably get in then! I think I will vote for a 'national' independent with FG/Green/Lab next preferences but decent independents do not exist in every constituency. Its a tough one.

If Labour get their way, they will maintain salaries and numbers, they will reverse cuts, they will not borrow money, they will not increase taxes. It just doesn't add up, in the words of Gerry Adams "Paul Daniels couldn't achieve this"

cornbb

The Nark wrote: »

During the Celtic Tiger years, I stayed in my safe public service job, earning my steady but small salary while my friends drove their new 520Ds & Audis & their wifes had the 4WD for collecting the kids from school.

Now that the time has come to pay for their luxury lifestyles, their foreign properties etc, it's time to blame the peasants in the PS.

I hear this a lot from Public Sector employees. You seem to be under the impression that all private sector people were raking it in during the Tiger years, having a potshot at the public servants. Nothing could be further from the truth. The vast majority of private workers had to keep the heads down and work hard to get anywhere too. Many of them (including myself at one point) faced the chop when the sh*t hit the fan in 2008. Public sector employees took big cuts too but on the other hand they did pretty well out of benchmarking.

Its very unfair to typecast all private sector workers as BMW-driving capitalists laughing at the public service.

On the other hand I'll concede that its unfair to typecast public workers as lazy inefficient bureaucrats. This doesn't take away from the fact that certain State institutions are bloated, inefficient and dysfunctional though. Its not the workers' fault, but this does need to change and I hope FG follow through with genuine, intelligent refactoring. All taxpayers (whether private or public) have a right to get value for money from the public service.

Red Actor

femur61 wrote: »

No, you wouldn't be a turkey voting for christmas you'd be a child voting for santa. If all the wasters and quangos were eiliminated think of how efficient the HSE, education system would be. We could pride ourselves as a nation, our children wouldn't have to emigrate. Think about it we have one of the highest paid and largest PS in europe, we have a small population with rising unemployment, consequently as we all well know taxes are not being taken in to sustain the PS numbers at present. No matter who gets into government believe me there will be job cuts, FG are just laying their cards on the table honestly.

FG are hardly putting their cards on the table. See the answer I received to a question on quabgo savings. THey went to the trouble of identifying 145 to cut but haven't said how much will be saved or jobs cut. Where has the magic 30,000 figure come from - why not 40,000. I'd love if they said x from civil service, y from quangos, z from HSE admin, etc.

Reply from FG - question underneath.
The proposed 30,000 voluntary redundancies of non front line staff will come from across the public service, not only from the proposed mergers and abolition of quangos.

The savings from the quango abolition and mergers are incorporated into our overall saving estimates from the staff reductions which are detailed in the appendix of our fiscal strategy:
http://www.finegael.ie/upload/file/LessWasteLowerTaxesStrongerGrowth.pdf

Regards,

Fine Gael General Election Campaign Team

---

Original Message

---

Sent: 10 February 2011 21:37
To: policy@finegael.ie
Subject: Getting rid of quangos

Hi,

I'm interested in your policy on making the civil service more
efficient and specially your policy to close down 145 quangos. Can you
tell me if all 30,000 job cuts will come from the quango closures or if
not how many? How much is expected to be saved from closing the 145
qyuangos. I cant find these figures in your policy document.

Idbatterim

On the other hand I'll concede that its unfair to typecast public workers as lazy inefficient bureaucrats. This doesn't take away from the fact that certain State institutions are bloated, inefficient and dysfunctional though. Its not the workers' fault, but this does need to change and I hope FG follow through with genuine, intelligent refactoring. All taxpayers (whether private or public) have a right to get value for money from the public service.

very good point that I dont think anyone would disagree with. I think we all need to stand up against the waste, inefficiency etc, including Public Servants.

tails_naf

The Nark wrote: »

Point taken...

No one denies that there is waste... Hopefully F.G. will start at the top and regulate the pay of the multi-millionaire consultants who earn €220k + p.a. for providing a part time service, earn double what their counterparts in Sweden earn and use beds in public hospitals to treat their private patients.

Meanwhile, the current crooks are trying to take away the wages of 4th year trainee nurses... A smoke screen to deflect attention while they sidle out of office with their criminally inflated pensions...

This really highlights the problem of low-information voters, and why people vote for the guy who 'looks alright on the poster', or 'did a turn for me locally' - it's because a large number of people simply don't bother to look up any basic policies, that are out there in black and white, from each party.

Even when you yourself feel you are a leper, and are going to be a target by an incoming government, you don't bother to find out who will actually do what.

FG have said that the way to tackle the PS is by tackling the waste. NOT the front line.
If you are a middle-manager/admin, who doesn't know what your job actually is, then yes you are in trouble as they see that as waste, and will target it.
If you are front-line, who has a well defined job, then you are not in trouble.

If the elimination of this kind of waste is not done, then believe me, worse will happen down the line. So do you support the waste, or are you in favour of tackling it?

If the waste is removed, I feel the leper status will be too.

thetonynator

irishh_bob wrote: »

that load of cobblers hasnt worked in at least two years , the public sector was ( on average ) better paid than the private sector right throughout the boom , the union trick of potraying brigid the clerical officer on 25 k per year as being typical of the public sector and sean dunne as being typical of the private sector has long since been found out

What people don't seem to realise is that comparisons between the Public and private sector wage are inaccurate, as in effect you are comparing over paid doctors to minimum wage bin men, teachers to minimum wage retail staff. The average public sector worker is higher qualified and has a more demanding job than the average private sector worker.

Max Powers

thetonynator wrote: »

What people don't seem to realise is that comparisons between the Public and private sector wage are inaccurate, as in effect you are comparing over paid doctors to minimum wage bin men, teachers to minimum wage retail staff. The average public sector worker is higher qualified and has a more demanding job than the average private sector worker.

In the words of the sky sports presenter ''do me a favour''. The public sector is overstaffed, under efficient, not effective, excellent benefits and has a high % of overpaid idiots at the upper levels who couldnt manage a change if there jobs depended on it.

tails_naf

thetonynator wrote: »

What people don't seem to realise is that comparisons between the Public and private sector wage are inaccurate, as in effect you are comparing over paid doctors to minimum wage bin men, teachers to minimum wage retail staff. The average public sector worker is higher qualified and has a more demanding job than the average private sector worker.

come on now - when we compare like jobs in France/Germany/Uk to Irish PS workers, we're told it's unfair, and when we compare jobs here at home we're also told it's unfair.

So can you, as a PS worker, come up with a fair way to compare PS jobs with jobs in other sectors or countries?

The funny thing is, before benchmarking was brought in, PS workers were only too happy to compare jobs in public and private sectors, but suddenly the same comparisons are not allowed? All that's changed is benchmarking overinflated the PS wages over many years, and no one in the PS wants to admit that, even though it is true.

The fact is, there are ways of comparing clerical roles in the PS to clerical roles in the private sector. You can compare engineers to engineers. you also can compare jobs at an hourly rate for teachers/doctors/what have you with other EU countries, and then adjust for the cost of living / or adjust for the avg wage difference seen between like-jobs in private sector in Ireland and those same countries.
Comparing like this would be valid - as it accounts for relative differences, but I predict you wouldn't accept that either, would you?

Case in point - in 2007 - Guy I work with is a private sector engineer. Full BEEE, 6 years+ experience, highly skilled/techinical jobs, was being paid less than his wife, who is a primary school teacher, with 4.5 years experience.
Compared to other countries, the balance is definitely different - in the US, a teacher would make 30-40k USD with that experience, while an engineer would make 100K USD. Clearly there is an imbalance over here.