Simple idea to reduce education expendure..

n97 mini

..whilst maintaining the same levels of teaching time:

Increase contracted teaching hours, by say 25%.

At third level, take the ITs: Lecturers are contracted to work 16 hours a week in class. Increasing this by 25% to 20 hours a week and you would be able to do the same amount of teaching with less lecturers. In time 25% would be shaved off the payroll costs.

Secondary school teachers are contracted to work 22 hours a week teaching. Again, increase this to 26.5 hours a week and you can do the same amount of teaching with less staff.

Primary level is not so simple as teachers have the same class for the whole day.

I know teachers and their relatives will say they work 40 hours a week, every week, already. That's not in dispute. I'm only suggesting that some more of those hours be spent teaching.


(The education sector has 95,554 full-time staff – about 27 per cent of total public sector employment. Of these, 59,000 are teachers, 10,400 are special-needs assistants and 20,000 work in third-level colleges. The cost of teacher salaries is €2.1 billion at primary and €1.9 billion at second level. The cost of pay in the university/IT sector is €1.3 billion.)

Cookie_Monster

Do you honestly think that the unions would go along with 25% more teaching time with no increase in pay or conditions to compensate. How do you propose to reduce the amount of worked required to be done in the non-teaching time?

You are not disputing that teachers do 40 hour working week, 22 teaching and therefore 18 is corrections, lesson planning, school meetings etc. if you are losing approx 5 hours a week how is this workload supposed to still be accomplished?

jimmycrackcorm

What the OP suggests would give more value for money but it would be the same amount of money.

RichardAnd

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

What the OP suggests would give more value for money but it would be the same amount of money.

I come to the same conclusion. We don't need more bang for out buck, we need what we currently have to cost less.

n97 mini

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Do you honestly think that the unions would go along with 25% more teaching time with no increase in pay or conditions to compensate.

No I don't. This would really have to be done for new entrants only, as existing staff and unions would block it. (Did the unions not block a proposed extra 1 hour a week under Croke Park?)

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

You are not disputing that teachers do 40 hour working week, 22 teaching and therefore 18 is corrections, lesson planning, school meetings etc. if you are losing approx 5 hours a week how is this workload supposed to still be accomplished?

It basically means an increase in productivity.

I think it would fly. Over time less staff would be required for teaching, and it would yield savings.

The alternative, which I think is also fair, is to contract teachers and lecturers to be on site 39 hours a week, something they should have no problem agreeing to in principle, and work productivity increases into the system that way.

liammur

n97 mini wrote: »

..whilst maintaining the same levels of teaching time:

Increase contracted teaching hours, by say 25%.

At third level, take the ITs: Lecturers are contracted to work 16 hours a week in class. Increasing this by 25% to 20 hours a week and you would be able to do the same amount of teaching with less lecturers. In time 25% would be shaved off the payroll costs.

Secondary school teachers are contracted to work 22 hours a week teaching. Again, increase this to 26.5 hours a week and you can do the same amount of teaching with less staff.

Primary level is not so simple as teachers have the same class for the whole day.

I know teachers and their relatives will say they work 40 hours a week, every week, already. That's not in dispute. I'm only suggesting that some more of those hours be spent teaching.


(The education sector has 95,554 full-time staff – about 27 per cent of total public sector employment. Of these, 59,000 are teachers, 10,400 are special-needs assistants and 20,000 work in third-level colleges. The cost of teacher salaries is €2.1 billion at primary and €1.9 billion at second level. The cost of pay in the university/IT sector is €1.3 billion.)

There's huge waste across the public sector. Why can't principals in primary schools teach for instance, there's a saving of millions already.

Sponge Bob

liammur wrote: »

There's huge waste across the public sector. Why can't principals in primary schools teach for instance

Most of them do, you must be a Dub ....for which there is an explanation

In primary schools you cannot increase the school week by more than half an hour to an hour, kiddies have no attention spans.

In secondary schools it depends on subjects, the school week is over 26 hours anyway so 26 hours teaching is doable in many cases.

Easiest one of all is third level. Announce you are closing 20% of college places and they will come up with the 20% bonusage themselves

mikemac

liammur wrote: »

Why can't principals in primary schools teach for instance, there's a saving of millions already.

You must have gone to a massive primary school. Or be thinking of one in a city

In most primary schools, the principals teach

femur61

A friend of mine who is an Irish teacher says that Irish should not be compulsory, it is a complete waste forcing young people to learn a language that will be of no use to them. She says it is painful to watch the weaker students struggle with it and all it is doing is making that 40 minutes a day a misery.

n97 mini

feelingstressed wrote: »

In most primary schools, the principals teach

My son's primary school is split into a junior school (junior infants to 2nd class inclusive) and a senior school (the rest). Both have principals. Neither teach. There are also several other non-teaching staff.

A friend has his kids in a primary school with a total of 20 pupils. There are 2 teachers, 1 administrator and a caretaker.

RichardAnd

n97 mini wrote: »

My son's primary school is split into a junior school (junior infants to 2nd class inclusive) and a senior school (the rest). Both have principals. Neither teach. There are also several other non-teaching staff.

A friend has his kids in a primary school with a total of 20 pupils. There are 2 teachers, 1 administrator and a caretaker.

That is, or at least in my day was, rare. In primary school, and I was in 4 different ones, all my principals taught a class.

BOHtox

In education, parent-teacher meetings should definitely be held after school hours.

bmarley

Reduce lecturers salaries, they are paid way too much.

Reduce holidays for all educational sectors - teachers, parents and children do not need so many holidays.

Increase salaries for pre-school teachers and increase their hours - most work for 10-15 euros per hour based on a 20 hour week with holidays totalling 8 per cent of hours worked. They also have to do extra training and preparation outside of working time.

waster81

n97 mini wrote: »

My son's primary school is split into a junior school (junior infants to 2nd class inclusive) and a senior school (the rest). Both have principals. Neither teach. There are also several other non-teaching staff.


A friend has his kids in a primary school with a total of 20 pupils. There are 2 teachers, 1 administrator and a caretaker.

You conveniently forget to tell us the number of kids in your sons school.

Why dont you ask the teachers to go around with mop and brush start cleaning the school, at least that would get rid of the caretaker.

femur61

n97 mini wrote: »

My son's primary school is split into a junior school (junior infants to 2nd class inclusive) and a senior school (the rest). Both have principals. Neither teach. There are also several other non-teaching staff.

.

I have have in ecperience with 3 different primary schools and non of the headmasters/headmistesses teach.

n97 mini

waster81 wrote: »

You conveniently forget to tell us the number of kids in your sons school.

Why dont you ask the teachers to go around with mop and brush start cleaning the school, at least that would get rid of the caretaker.

I didn't forget anything, I showed both ends of the spectrum

In other European countries teachers stoop to such menials tasks as keeping the place clean. Why is it teachers here feel they are above it? Are they above cleaning their own homes too?

byhookorbycrook

Parent /teacher meetings in primary ARE done outside of school time. Under Croke Park, each primary school must work an extra hour a week, which is to be used for whole school planning etc.

I'm not sure if any of you saying principals in bigger schools should teach know what a principal does.

Typical day for a principal will include some of the following and more: meet with parents who just want "a quick word" before school starts or those with a formal appt, meet with educational psychologist,then supervise class while the class teacher meet the psychologist, organise choir for whatever- might be a sacrament,a local concert,chase down the missing school milk, talk to a number of pupils who are a)acting up in class, b)have produced some great work that deserves recognition ir c) have some issue like a bereavement or seperation in their lives, liase with speech therapists, OTs, physios, apply for SNA support, fill in online school returns,head off the book company rep trying to plug ANOTHER new reading scheme, meet with the treasurer of the BOM,policies on everything from mobile phones to internet safety,her own yard duty supervision and if not on yard, try to ring back the various people who have been trying to reach her all morning,apply for garda clearance for the local GAA coaches who will be working with the school-ensure that there are enough helmets and hurleys for the training, book a bus for the match.She will also be expected to know each child by name and ensure that the needs of individual children are met in mainstream and special ed. classes and to be available to teachers to have concerns on anything school related and to find a sub at 8.a.m for the infant teacher who has contracted the dreaded bug that has ravaged the classroom.If she does get a sub, she will then have to explain the running of the school day to the sub, the routine, lunchtimes,amount of homework, supervision as the children leave at three.(Presuming a child doesn't miss their bus, parents are late-and deal with the upset child.

I have worked in small schools, where the principal has to all the above AND teach a class, unfair to pupils and staff alike.

The real saving for schools would to be get rid of prefabs. Our entire school (475 children) was in prefabs ,some rented for more than 25 years and when we left just razed to the ground.

waster81

n97 mini wrote: »

I didn't forget anything, I showed both ends of the spectrum

In other European countries teachers stoop to such menials tasks as keeping the place clean. Why is it teachers here feel they are above it? Are they above cleaning their own homes too?

your sons school is obviously a large school with over 180 kids a fact you didnt or chose not to mention because it didnt suit your argument,

Yet you quote your "friends" school with 20 kids.

Rather than just plucking information out of the air, can you quote a link to where teachers in other European countries clean the floors etc within a school.

Sometimes the nonsense and waffle that come from some people makes you wonder.

n97 mini

waster81 wrote: »

your sons school is obviously a large school with over 180 kids a fact you didnt or chose not to mention because it didnt suit your argument,

Yet you quote your "friends" school with 20 kids.

Rather than just plucking information out of the air, can you quote a link to where teachers in other European countries clean the floors etc within a school.

Sometimes the nonsense and waffle that come from some people makes you wonder.

I illustrated some principals teach, some don't. Calm down.

When I was in national school the teachers and students kept it clean. We had no caretaker.

graduate

Another waffle thread. There aren't many simple ways of reducing public expenditure. There especially aren't any in education as there are already fewer staff in Irish education than other countries.

n97 mini

graduate wrote: »

There especially aren't any in education as there are already fewer staff in Irish education than other countries.

With lecturers contracted to put in only 16 hours a week for 35 weeks a year, I don't think staff numbers are the problem.

ardmacha

This thread is entirely free of logic or context. Irish primary teacher have more student contact hours than three quarters of OECD nations, and secondary school teachers more than two third of OECD nations. In both cases they teach bigger classes than in almost any developed nation. There is room for some improvement in everything, but if Ireland has financial problems that other nations don't have, this is not the reason.

With lecturers contracted to put in only 16 hours a week for 35 weeks a year, I don't think staff numbers are the problem.

Lecturers are required to teach class for 16 hours, this is not a measure of how much they put in. If I asked you to teach a class I'd say you'd want a couple of hours to prepare. You probably want a week.

femur61

Our school has just informed us that the homework club, which we pay for will not be run one day of every month due to meeting because of the CP agreement.

n97 mini

ardmacha wrote: »

Lecturers are required to teach class for 16 hours, this is not a measure of how much they put in. If I asked you to teach a class I'd say you'd want a couple of hours to prepare. You probably want a week.

My wife is a lecturer in an IT. Normal term time doesn't mean more than maybe 20 hours a week spent in the college. She is not rostered to work at all on Thursdays and during normal term time does not go in on Thursdays.

She would also tell you that unless the curriculum changes there is little preparation to be done once it has all been done the first year.

doc_17

n97 mini wrote: »

My wife is a lecturer in an IT. Normal term time doesn't mean more than maybe 20 hours a week spent in the college. She is not rostered to work at all on Thursdays and during normal term time does not go in on Thursdays.

She would also tell you that unless the curriculum changes there is little preparation to be done once it has all been done the first year.

Does she not have meetings with students who are struggling? Who are doing projects? Does she have no corrections? Does she not give tutorials coming up tp exam time?

Out of curiosity what does she lecture in?

Rodin

femur61 wrote: »

A friend of mine who is an Irish teacher says that Irish should not be compulsory, it is a complete waste forcing young people to learn a language that will be of no use to them. She says it is painful to watch the weaker students struggle with it and all it is doing is making that 40 minutes a day a misery.

Then teach it properly
Irish is piss easy
Only eleven irregular verbs. A doddle.