Irish Policy

WhosUpDocs

Fine Gael Manifesto wrote:

Creidimid má dhéanaimid athchóiriú ar an mbealach ina múinimid an Ghaeilge go spreagfar níos mó scoláirí chun staidéar a dhéanamh ar an teanga agus chun í a úsáid taobh amuigh den chóras oideachais. Creidimid nár chothaigh an Ghaeilge éigeantach fás na teanga nó grá don teanga. Déanfaimid athchóiriú ar an gcuracalam dara leibhéal agus scrúdóimid go criticiúil an tionchar atá ag na modhanna oiliúna do mhúinteoirí atá i bhfeidhm i láthair na huaire. Ní bheidh an Ghaeilge mar ábhar roghnach go dtí go mbeidh cainteanna ar an dá ábhar tugtha i gcrích.

I'm still unsure how I feel about the above. They do seem committed to development of the way we teach the language. Is there any evidence that making it optional would signal the death of Irish?

What policies do the other parties have for forbairt na gaeilge?

leincar

If I could understand what was said, I might offer an opinion.

Eliot Rosewater

The policy of compulsory Irish is there for the good of the Irish language and not for the good of the student. Most supporters of the policy are frank and open about this. I personally think it's a terrible attitude to have towards any education system. Such a system should exist to equip people to live fruitful and happy lives, not to act as a carrier for a particular vested interest.

Ideally, I would not like to see Irish die. However, my opinion is this - if it does die it will be because people don't care for it. If enough people care for it it will survive through voluntary interest, promotion and engagement. Thus it's survival would be linked to how much value the Irish people actually place in it, which seems a pretty fair way of going about things.

WhosUpDocs

Ok here it goes. I'll attempt this :

We believe that a complete change in the way in which Irish is thought would spark more interest in students to study the language and to use it outside of the education system. We believe that compulsory Irish doesn't help the growth or love of the language. We would completely change the curriculum at second level and would critically examine the mthods of teachers that are in place at the moment. Irish would not be made optional until these changes have been implemented.

I think that's the general jist :rolleyes:

usernamegoes

People at approx 16 years old should be allowed choose what they want to learn.

leincar

WhosUpDocs wrote: »

Ok here it goes. I'll attempt this :

We believe that a complete change in the way in which Irish is thought would spark more interest in students to study the language and to use it outside of the education system. We believe that compulsory Irish doesn't help the growth or love of the language. We would completely change the curriculum at second level and would critically examine the mthods of teachers that are in place at the moment. Irish would not be made optional until these changes have been implemented.

I think that's the general jist :rolleyes:

I would agree totally with this. Fine Gael are not talking about abolishing the teaching of Irish. They are talking about not making it compulsory for Leaving Cert. That sounds perfectly fair when you consider that at the moment it is the only compulsory subject for the Leaving Cert.

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2005-11-29.2203.0

In the medium term, a full review of how the language is taught is proposed. Once again this, on paper seems to make perfect sense.

I speak better French, German, Arabic and Hebrew than Irish. All of the other languages I have more or less picked up through work and learning them in a conversational style. My knowledge of them are by no means perfect(especially Arabic) but I can get by.

As Eliot Rosewater has said in his post 'The policy of compulsory Irish is there for the good of the Irish language and not for the good of the Irish people'. With our present economic circumstances, surely more emphasis has to be placed on both the sciences and maths.

An example of how the teaching of Irish needs to change is my eldest daughter. She has an exemption from Irish as we only moved back here five years ago, yet when she goes into fifth year in September she will take Hebrew studies as a leaving cert subject. She has not learned Hebrew in five years, only speaks it on the odd occasion(especially when rowing with her Mum) yet is already confident of getting an A+ in the subject in her Leaving cert. A lot of the problems are undoubtedly the way Irish is taught.

Now, as regards the economics of dropping the language as a compulsory subject and how it may impact on Gaeltacht areas. Have these people never heard of change? Change the curriculum from teaching Irish and turn the schools in to maths and science camps(but not band camp). It happens in the U.S. and Canada, why not here?

Lastly, and I'm not having a go at Pearse Doherty(though I'd love to) its just that he said it. In fairness to him any number of politicians could have said it. When yesterday, Sinn Féin launched their policy document on the Irish language(15/02) with regard to the Irish language he said "Equality is an integral part of a democratic society". My reply to that is " In a democratic society so is choice. No one is suggesting that the language be banned".

SarahBM

sitting here watching the Leaders debate in Irish I very much regret the fac that I hated Irish so much in school, that I dropped back to pass, just to ensure I wouldnt fail it.

I would love to learn Irish again, but the thought of doing Peig..... very off putting. might go to an adult Irish class. would be much more fun to learn through speaking it I think. I would no doubt have achieved high grades in my LC if I didnt have to divert some of my attention to learning essays in Irish off by heart.
Irish should not be compulsory but should still be available to those who WANT to learn it. and the way in which it is taught HAS to be changed.

PeterIanStaker

Irish needs to be taught at a conversational level I think. For example, the Connemara native speakers have a wonderful turn of phrase that's a world away from the stuffy, staid, language of textbooks.

leincar

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

Irish needs to be taught at a conversational level I think. For example, the Connemara native speakers have a wonderful turn of phrase that's a world away from the stuffy, staid, language of textbooks.

Ah yes, but the narrow sectional interest of Connemara must according to them remain as is. They would never think of change.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

loldog

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

Irish needs to be taught at a conversational level I think. For example, the Connemara native speakers have a wonderful turn of phrase that's a world away from the stuffy, staid, language of textbooks.

I don't think it should be taught in schools at all. This institutionalisation has done far more harm than good. If it were to be revived in any meaningful sense it's got to be done at the grassroots in communities, anything else is just artificial and hypocritical.

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gcgirl

There is a rural/urban difference of opinion on this, i would have preferred as a 16 yr old to choose what subjects i did instead i left school because i did not have a choice, actually went back in to education 4/5 yrs later and did far better than i expected!

AlexderFranke

Oh, cuimhníonn an scéal timpeall Peige ar an-chuid mo cheachtanna na Gearmáinise ar scoil. Cuireadh orainn neart a léamh a bhí thar a bheith leadrannach dúinn mar dhéagóirí. Mar sin, cumadh an drogall ionainn roimh an litríocht.
Dar liomsa, is gá cúpla ábhar éigeantach, ach ní fiú an drogall a chumadh trí bhealaí an teagaisc. In Éirinn, ba cheart go deo an Ghaeilge a choinneáil mar ábhar éigeantach go dtí an Teastas Sóiséarach ach bealach an mhúinidh a athchóiriú go raidiciúil. Go cinnte, tá i lán leabhar ann as Gaeilge freisin a fhreastalódh ar shuim na ndéagóirí ar scoil in áit Peige.
Is cur cuid an airgid faoi choinne múinidh na Gaeilge sa tine nuair nach bhfuil bun-Ghaeilge ag cuid Éireannach in ainneoin 12 bliain d´fhoghlaim na Gaeilge ar scoil. Ba cheart aire a thabhairt go mbeidh Gaeilge réasúnta ag gach dhalta go dtí an dTeastas Sóirséarach.
Thairis sin, ba cheart cóiriú thar-teorainneach de réir na Gaeilge ar scoil a chur ar bun. Is fiú an Ghaeilge a chur isteach mar ábhar éigeantach sna Sé Contae go dtí an scrúdú a fhreagraíonn don Teastas Sóiséarach sa Phoblacht.

Oh, the matter around Peig reminds me of many of my German lessons at school. We were forced to read something that was totally boring for us as teenagers. So a dislike towards literature was created in ourselves.
In my point of view, a couple of mandatory subjects are necessary, but it is no use creating dislike by the ways of teaching. In Ireland, Irish ought to be kept as mandatory subject until the Junior Certificate, but to radically revise the way of teaching. Surely, there are many books in Irish, too, that would meet with the interests of teenagers at school instead of Peig.
It is putting some of the money for the sake of teaching Irish to the fire while some Irish persons do not have basic Irish despite 12 years of learning Irish at school. One ought to pay attention that every pupil will have reasonable Irish until the Junior Certificate.
Furthermore, a cross-border adjustment ought to be set up referring to Irish at school. It is worth to introduce Irish as mandatory subject in the Six Counties until the exam which corresponds to the Junior Certificate in the Republic.

Alex

kit3

The proposal to review the way Irish is taught is great - no problem with that at all. However, I do have a problem with making Irish a non compulsory subject at Leaving Cert level. To me it's an intrinsic part of what we are as Irish people. The way it's taught has certainly put people off. Having said that, they still have a certain grounding in the language if they want to come back to it in later life. Looking at kids in Gaelscoileanna, they learn the language so naturally, they don't even realise that they are learning it. Certainly room for improvement in the approach but keep it as compulsory to Leaving Cert level.

Flimbos

This is an interesting proposal from FG. I actually think that by making Irish optional it could strengthen support for Irish, and increase interest in the language.

I was a passive enough Irish student. I had a great teacher, and I did well in the Leaving, but I was never that passionate about the language, and haven't used it since leaving school.

If anything, this will make us look at how Irish is taught, and classes that are full of enthusiastic students who want to be there may well be more productive.

bleg

For me, Irish was quite pointless for the LC, just there to make up numbers. I did quite well despite not being able to speak a word of natural Irish. I learned off phrases for my oral, essays for the written and hated the aural. Definitely agree with making it optional after the JC. I think there is a sizeable proportion in Irish society who learned off Irish rather than engaged in any meaningful way.

The first step is to get the NUI to drop the Irish requirement. Our universities are supposed to be world class institutions but they still insist on this stone age policy.

I have no problem with people learning the language but why ram it down our throats?

loldog

kit3 wrote: »

The proposal to review the way Irish is taught is great - no problem with that at all. However, I do have a problem with making Irish a non compulsory subject at Leaving Cert level. To me it's an intrinsic part of what we are as Irish people.

This kind of talk is part of the problem. It's just another minority European language, leave it the **** alone and stop forcing people to get into it. It does x1000 more harm than good by institutionalising it and putting it up on a pedestal.

It would get on far better if it wasn't taught in schools at all. People might actually be comfortable speaking it without all the pressure and baggage.

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Tim Robbins

WhosUpDocs wrote: »

I'm still unsure how I feel about the above. They do seem committed to development of the way we teach the language. Is there any evidence that making it optional would signal the death of Irish?

What policies do the other parties have for forbairt na gaeilge?

I could speak almost fluent Irish by age 15. Inter cert. Leaving Cert you're thinking about what subjects you need to get some sort of career.

See no reason why it be compulsory.

Gordon Gekko

I found it striking (although not surprising) on last night's Prime Time piece on this that the vast bulk of the opposition from FG's policy seemed to come from those with an economic interest in the preservation of the Irish language as a compulsory subject.

You had various Irish language lobby groups, a few bean an tí and of course our old friends in the INTO plaintively wailing about how Irish makes us who we are. At least the women who take in students in the Gaeltacht were honest when they said the students made up a good part of their income. I would be willing to bet that a good 75% of those students protesting the other day are either studying Irish in college with a view to becoming teachers, or are trainee teachers. No compulsory Irish = significantly fewer Irish teachers at secondary level and the probable abolition of the requirement for Irish in order to train as a primary teacher.

Vested interests the lot of them and by and large motivated by money first and foremost. FAOD I loved Irish in school but it needs to be taught the way continental European languages are taught - the same vested interests listed above have managed to kill Irish for generations of students with their outdated, cultural elitist way of teaching the language.

nevsky

loldog wrote: »

This kind of talk is part of the problem. It's just another minority European language, leave it the **** alone and stop forcing people to get into it. It does x1000 more harm than good by institutionalising it and putting it up on a pedestal.

It would get on far better if it wasn't taught in schools at all. People might actually be comfortable speaking it without all the pressure and baggage.

.

I couldn't agree more. I hated learning it in school. Even now I automatically tune out when I hear it. It shouldn't be like that. Why not drop the literature and concentrate on a conversational style. Also they are still advocating compulsary Irish to Junior cert.

loldog

nevsky wrote: »

Why not drop the literature and concentrate on a conversational style.

The thing is the literature contains all the beautiful examples of conversational style. But school is not the place to learn it. Unless it's being learned and practiced by the entire community then there's no point. That's why things like TG4 are good, it brings Gaeilge into the household, the teaghlach, where it should be. It should be the language of hearth and home, not the schoolroom. And no one should be forced to learn against their will, that ought to be self evident.

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