Connection, ping and what the bars actually mean.

shawpower

The thread by Ross (here) reminded me of this other aspect of connections and what the bars actually meant. I discovered an interesting video on You Tube by chance from a pretty knowledgeable director which explained how the green bars work in relation to ping / lag. Some of you may already know this but I didn’t and it explained many things to me.

He said that the connection bars each represent 100 m/s ping. So 4 green bars meant you had a <100ms ping, 3 green meant 101-200 m/s, 2 orange was 200-300 m/s and so on.

The reason I thought that this was interesting was, if true a) it showed me what the bars actually meant and b) it explained to me how sometimes you get 4 bars and yet the hit detection / lag seems poor. Yet a 3 bar games sometimes is not as bad as you expected.

So I could be in a game on 4 green bars and have a ping of 100 m/s and yet someone else on 4 green bars could have a ping of 30 m/s. To cloud the issue further someone could be on 3 green bars and have a ping of 101 m/s. I can’t help think that this vague graphical representation and the large range that falls into each category is to stop people from realising just how poor their connection might be, whilst trying to show more games as “good quality connections”.

When I played MW2 alone, if I searched for a game, as soon as match ping went to 70 m/s and above I dropped back and searched again until I got a 50 (or 60 max) m/s ping. This was because everyone accepted that otherwise you would be at a disadvantage. But yet with the green bars, people are “grateful” for a 4 bar connection when in fact the game connection is of a quality that they would not have accepted in the past.

I would like to see in future COD games, they give a figure and not a graphical representation for you connection in each game. Yes this would put more pressure on the developers and open them up to more criticism, but unless there is greater visibility / accountability how else can they be expected to improve their product as each game comes out.

Any thoughts?

CORaven

I agree with you about the numerical info as opposed to graphical.

It is odd how in pc gaming, 150 ping would be seen as unacceptable and would result in a kick from L4D2, yet people are grateful for it on consoles. What makes the consoles so different to pc with latency?

jimbling

Can you link that youtube clip?
It seems a bit odd. I'm sure ive had two bar connections with ping of under 200ms. But I suppose those ping tests aren't always accurate.



This thread could also be used to discuss possible ways to improve ones online experience. I've searched a few times here but found nothing close to it. If OP doesn't mind (It is pretty closely related), I think this would be a good place to see if people here are knowledgeable in the area.
e.g.
Ways, if any, to improve packet loss.
Ways, if any, to improve jitter.
Ways, if any, to improve ping times.
Wireless vs Wired
Locale Only search vs default
Router in the same room vs Router in the attic
etc etc etc

jimbling

CORaven wrote: »

I agree with you about the numerical info as opposed to graphical.

It is odd how in pc gaming, 150 ping would be seen as unacceptable and would result in a kick from L4D2, yet people are grateful for it on consoles. What makes the consoles so different to pc with latency?

There you go.... you started off the conversation for me

iMuse

As far as I know COD2 had numerical ping. I suppose they dont want console gamers to know the exact number because of how high they are. The reason for the high latency is the P2P networking I think. Doubt they will bring it back in.

CORaven

jimbling wrote: »

There you go.... you started off the conversation for me

I'm going to switch to pc once they support pc and allow the lads to make custom maps for MP and zombies.

shawpower

jimbling wrote: »

Can you link that youtube clip?
It seems a bit odd. I'm sure ive had two bar connections with ping of under 200ms. But I suppose those ping tests aren't always accurate.



This thread could also be used to discuss possible ways to improve ones online experience. I've searched a few times here but found nothing close to it. If OP doesn't mind (It is pretty closely related), I think this would be a good place to see if people here are knowledgeable in the area.
e.g.
Ways, if any, to improve packet loss.
Ways, if any, to improve jitter.
Ways, if any, to improve ping times.
Wireless vs Wired
Locale Only search vs default
Router in the same room vs Router in the attic
etc etc etc

I'll see if I can find it again.

I've no problem if this thread morphs into that at all.

Incidentally, how did you determine your ping speed on Black Ops?

Shammy

shawpower wrote: »

I'll see if I can find it again.

I've no problem if this thread morphs into that at all.

Incidentally, how did you determine your ping speed on Black Ops?

The first thing you got to do is do a ping test of your own connection. The reason your usually on 4 bar to me Rob is that my ping to you is 20/25.
Your on 3 bars to your english mates because its a longer distance away there fore higher latancy.

jimbling

shawpower wrote: »

Incidentally, how did you determine your ping speed on Black Ops?

I didn't.... I suppose there in lies the reason

Whenever I have bad connections I run pingtest.net from the laptop to see what it's like. Normally when I have 1/2 bars it will come back with 100+ ping speed. I've never seen it over 150ms. But of course the connection to the actual black ops host machine could be much worse.

I dont think we use the locale only search. Does that make a big difference in getting decent games?

shawpower

CORaven wrote: »

I agree with you about the numerical info as opposed to graphical.

It is odd how in pc gaming, 150 ping would be seen as unacceptable and would result in a kick from L4D2, yet people are grateful for it on consoles. What makes the consoles so different to pc with latency?

I've gotta say, in MW2, I wouldn't have joined a game with a 150 ping speed. 80 was about the worst I accepted. Of course, when you were in a party, you didn't see that so couldn't be sure...

Nuri Sahin

iMuse wrote: »

As far as I know COD2 had numerical ping. I suppose they dont want console gamers to know the exact number because of how high they are. The reason for the high latency is the P2P networking I think. Doubt they will bring it back in.

Indeed it did.

Also anyone who played COD4 on PS3 during the hack lobby bonanza and was lucky enough to play ProMod/ProSim will have seen in the leaderboard that numerical ping replaced the graphic.

shawpower

Shammy wrote: »

The first thing you got to do is do a ping test of your own connection. The reason your usually on 4 bar to me Rob is that my ping to you is 20/25.
Your on 3 bars to your english mates because its a longer distance away there fore higher latancy.

But a ping test to what. How can I know where the host is in a random game? Sure, I can test to you in a ping to a Limerick server. I thought jimbling meant there was a way to test your ping speeds to a BOps host, similar to how in MW2 it told you what catagory you were in as you looked for lobbies; 50ms, 70ms, 80ms etc etc.


Yeah, I know the ping speed will be worse when playing with UK guys. I don't complain about that anymore, unless it's ridiculous lag where i can empty a whole clip and find myself dying as they turn around and kill me in 3 bullets.

jimbling

shawpower wrote: »

But a ping test to what. How can I know where the host is in a random game? Sure, I can test to you in a ping to a Limerick server. I thought jimbling meant there was a way to test your ping speeds to a BOps host, similar to how in MW2 it told you what catagory you were in as you looked for lobbies; 50ms, 70ms, 80ms etc etc.

No, as I went on to clear up, I'm just using pingtest on the laptop to get an idea.

shawpower wrote: »

Yeah, I know the ping speed will be worse when playing with UK guys. I don't complain about that anymore, unless it's ridiculous lag where i can empty a whole clip and find myself dying as they turn around and kill me in 3 bullets.

I always ping uk servers to get a better idea.

btw, do most of ye use the local only search??

shawpower

jimbling wrote: »

btw, do most of ye use the local only search??

Always, but I rarely am the lobby leader so it doesn't matter.

Nuri Sahin

jimbling wrote: »

N

btw, do most of ye use the local only search??

Of course. Though I think some lads on the PS3 do not, won't name names :P

jimbling

I had it on at the start but turned if off cause I was having huge problems just getting into games. The last few patches have improved that a bit so should change it back now... probably help a lot.

yimrsg

To my mind the developer seems to have taken a lazy option and treated the customer like a mushroom.

Feed him s*** and keep them in the dark

MW2 had the search by ping and more often than not on a 3mb eircom line most of my matches started with less than 100 ping. Black Ops has been attrocious at times recently with several of us noting that we were not getting hit markers, despite having normally clean shots that should kill. Even searching locale only games do I get a steady 3 bar connection. Far too many times I've checked the score board and seen our team all on 2 bar connections.

There are far more times when the game stutters to a halt than in MW2. Also the far too numerous ways for a person to be booted or a lobby to close. There must be about 6 or 7 different excuses Treyarch have wheeled out. This could be due to the constant tweeking & updating by Treyarch but IW for all that was bad about them got the connection pretty much spot on first time, only the game mechanics were far more susceptable to abuse.

If MW3 includes dedicated servers (I think that'll stop the lag switchers but someone else might know more than me) then it's a already looking like a winner, the increasing number of lag switches and 15th prestige gamers only playing 5 days is already becoming clearly evident and that's without the host dashboarding.

Magill

sucks ass... the fact that most of the time we have a 100-200 ping playing online in 2011 !!!

The deference between that and playing on dedicated 20-30ms servers is ****ign UNREAL ! And its not just you're latency.... consoles weren't built to act as servers.

You can have 2 dedicated servers for the PC and you could be pinging 30 on both of them.. but theres also the tickrates/FPS that a server could output that will change a **** load of stuff in terms of smoothness and hit registery. You ever notice why sometimes you'll be playing on a 3/4 bar connection but the game just feels like ****ing ****e (Not just the host)? Im pretty sure thats all server side bull****.

Im not really up to speed with how p2p matchmaking and hosting works... but the advantages of dedicated servers is far more than just you're ping.

jimbling

Has anyone gone from using wireless (xbox) connection to a wired connection? Would be interested to know if it improves it any great deal.

Soby

jimbling wrote: »

Has anyone gone from using wireless (xbox) connection to a wired connection? Would be interested to know if it improves it any great deal.

I want to do it with my ps3 cause the lag i get upstairs (with my rotuer downstairs) is awful at times.But i cant run a wire through the whole house.

everlast75

Soby wrote: »

I want to do it with my ps3 cause the lag i get upstairs (with my rotuer downstairs) is awful at times.But i cant run a wire through the whole house.

there's a fabulous invention I only discovered myself. Basically, the internet cable is plugged into a... well, plug and then when you plug the other plug into the wall, you can channel the internet through the cable and into the computer... that cleared that up eh?

Anyhoo, they are called Domestic electricity cables. You can get em in Power City et al.

hightower1

jimbling wrote: »

Has anyone gone from using wireless (xbox) connection to a wired connection? Would be interested to know if it improves it any great deal.

I have, have actually done a fair bit of testing on this but all in all QOS wise you see around a 25% over all difference . You Next to never nearly get those horrible "20 rounds to down a guy moments" which is nice.

Testing using a slim xbox , N class router and 100mb up / 10 mb down.

Seeing as you can run any real testing from the console I subbed in my note book which is also using an N class card.

Wifi -
Pings to google.com were about 15ms
Pings to modem / router 5 - 6 ms.
Bar wise in lobbies your seeing around 60% 3 bar and 40% 4 bar.
Speeds @ 65 - 70 mbps down / 9mbps up.

Wired -
Pings to google.com were about 12ms
Pings to modem / router 1-2 ms
Bar wise in lobbies your seeing 15% 3 bar and 85% 4 bar.
Speeds @ 90 mbps down / 9.5mbps up.

In short its preferable to use it if you can but dont go ripping skirting up JUST to wire the xbox in. I think more so its the game routing thats causing poor connections. In theory with line stats like I am seeing I should be host a lot but thats not the case seeing as the game favors ping over raw speed. While my pings are low if the rest of the lobby are uk based then the host will more than likely be UK based also.



Stopped playing MW2 now but while I was the host.... oh.. my. :eek::D


nb - oh and just in case I get the whole "pics or gtfo" see attachment. Bear in mind download running on another comp at the mo...

jimbling

You obviously have an excellent connection already. I have NEVER seen my ping, even to local servers, lower than 40ms (from wireless n laptop).

So, the question is... is it a fixed improvement or is it proportional. If my wireless is 60ms ping, will wiring it improve it by 25% or by a mere 3ms

I might look into it tonight a bit. I'll run a few different tests using my laptop wireless and wired.

Another benefit could be a more consistent connection. Wireless has a tendency to randomly drop. It might only be for a few seconds, but it'll be enough to lose connection to a game.

jimbling

jimbling wrote: »

btw, do most of ye use the local only search??

shawpower wrote: »

Always, but I rarely am the lobby leader so it doesn't matter.

How does lobby leader effect it? I'm not sure how the thing works to be honest. I presumed if it's local only search, then it will put you in games with other local people?

El LoCo Ade wrote: »

Of course

I set it to this the other day. I'm still getting a lot of bad lag (3 bursts of a G11 into a guys back from about 10ft away, only for him to turn around and kill me :mad:), but am also getting the odd very good game where 2/3 bullets actually put the fcker down (a serious rarity for me).

I also noticed that there are more host migrations etc. that could be a random coincidence too though.

Nuri Sahin

jimbling wrote: »

I set it to this the other day. I'm still getting a lot of bad lag (3 bursts of a G11 into a guys back from about 10ft away, only for him to turn around and kill me :mad:), but am also getting the odd very good game where 2/3 bullets actually put the fcker down (a serious rarity for me).

I also noticed that there are more host migrations etc. that could be a random coincidence too though.

The past few days most notably after 12am, no matter what you search (local only, etc) it doesn't seem to matter. But before that it ran fine after the patch.

We seem to be getting a lot of Yanks in the lobby too somehow, again I and the lads search using local only. Very odd.

Soby

everlast75 wrote: »

there's a fabulous invention I only discovered myself. Basically, the internet cable is plugged into a... well, plug and then when you plug the other plug into the wall, you can channel the internet through the cable and into the computer... that cleared that up eh?

Anyhoo, they are called Domestic electricity cables. You can get em in Power City et al.

So its still wireless but just done over a shoter distance from plug to plug?.Did a search there on the website and found nothing

mcgovern

Soby wrote: »

So its still wireless but just done over a shoter distance from plug to plug?.Did a search there on the website and found nothing

I would guess he is talking about homeplugs.

*Note: Not recommending that particular one, just using it as an example, don't use them myself so couldn't say which is best*

Soby

mcgovern wrote: »

I would guess he is talking about homeplugs.

*Note: Not recommending that particular one, just using it as an example, don't use them myself so couldn't say which is best*

Good stuff.They seem to be the best ones.Bit price at 60 euro though.And they all work no matter what router or whatever?

mcgovern

From what I understand, yeah, it should. They basically run the wired connection through the mains.