"Ireland on the road to Theocracy"

Pushtrak

A two parter youtube video.

Just watching part 1 now. Will talk about my take on them in a while, figured I should post this here for discussion.

Zombrex

only had time to watch first few minutes of the 1st video, but people talk about the blasphemy law as if it is new. It isn't really, it is just brining the law in line with the constitution.

There of course needs to be a constitutional referendum on the matter, it should have been included in other referendums we have already had (as was recommend in 1991).

but the narrative played out in some news media that Ireland just suddenly decided to outlaw blasphemy is rather inaccurate. If anything Ireland suddenly noticed its laws were out of line with its constitution, which whether you agree with the law or not, is not a good situation to simply leave as is.

liah

I'd be more of the opinion that Ireland was a theocracy, but like most modernizing societies, is (albeit slowly) moving away from that, surely.

The Blasphemy law is just a throwback that 'they' haven't bothered to fix yet, more than anything, most religious-based political stuff more or less is that way save for the more controversial of issues.

mikhail

Wicknight wrote: »

only had time to watch first few minutes of the 1st video, but people talk about the blasphemy law as if it is new. It isn't really, it is just brining the law in line with the constitution.

There of course needs to be a constitutional referendum on the matter, it should have been included in other referendums we have already had (as was recommend in 1991).

but the narrative played out in some news media that Ireland just suddenly decided to outlaw blasphemy is rather inaccurate. If anything Ireland suddenly noticed its laws were out of line with its constitution, which whether you agree with the law or not, is not a good situation to simply leave as is.

While you're correct, I don't like this line of excuses people make about the blasphemy law. The Irish government recently lost a court case in Europe where they were criticised for not having legislated for abortion in limited cases as required by a supreme court interpretation of the constitution which is older than the case which struck down the previous blasphemy law. Cherry-picking which bits of the constitution they like makes it even more inexcusable to decide to legislate for this indefensible attack on free speech.

Pushtrak

Sentiment towards the church isn't exactly that high at the moment. In fact, even the political parties are making at least empty mouth gestures towards secularism. It remains to be seen if they would actually follow through on that.

Ireland on the road to theocracy? Definitely not. The blasphemy law is an absolute bloody joke. Ridiculous. And it needs to be removed. But this on its own does not a theocracy make. It was a bit of a hypebolic video title. I felt a good discussion could come from both the title and the video contents though. I reckon this'll be a good thread.

Dave!

There's a thread on this same page saying that the church in Ireland is on the edge of collapse?!

oldrnwisr

It isn't really, it is just brining the law in line with the constitution.

The important point to make here is that the vacuum in the constitution was created by Corway vs. Independent Newspapers in 1999. The Supreme Court held that since the constitution did not adequately define blasphemy that it would be impossible to determine if an offence had been committed. This effectively scrapped blasphemy and sedition as offences.

It took the government ten years to "shore up" this shortcoming in the law. They still haven't made any statutory allowances for sedition or indecent material for that matter.

It is difficult to draw conclusions with such limited information but it seems odd that the government would choose to legislate against blasphemy and not against sedition. One wonders whether there are other forces at work.

Of course, the blasphemy law is ridiculous anyway. People who don't want their beliefs made fun of shouldn't have such funny beliefs.

The Mad Hatter

Dave! wrote: »

There's a thread on this same page saying that the church in Ireland is on the edge of collapse?!

Well, one of those things must be true!

eoin5

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Well, one of those things must be true!

"Ireland on the road to Theocracy" + "church in Ireland is on the edge of collapse" = Ireland on edge of collapse

Seems about right.

Zombrex

oldrnwisr wrote: »

The important point to make here is that the vacuum in the constitution was created by Corway vs. Independent Newspapers in 1999. The Supreme Court held that since the constitution did not adequately define blasphemy that it would be impossible to determine if an offence had been committed. This effectively scrapped blasphemy and sedition as offences.

It took the government ten years to "shore up" this shortcoming in the law. They still haven't made any statutory allowances for sedition or indecent material for that matter.

It is difficult to draw conclusions with such limited information but it seems odd that the government would choose to legislate against blasphemy and not against sedition. One wonders whether there are other forces at work.

Of course, the blasphemy law is ridiculous anyway. People who don't want their beliefs made fun of shouldn't have such funny beliefs.

I wouldn't be surprised if the more nutty elements of the independents (the TDs not the news paper) had pushed the government on this. Or you never know it could just have been what the minister saw in his inbox that day.

Doctor DooM

Dave! wrote: »

There's a thread on this same page saying that the church in Ireland is on the edge of collapse?!

Personally I am looking forward to the "Church is feeling ok actually, bit of an ache in the shoulder but you know how it gets when you're a little older" thread.

Dudess

"Ireland on the road to theocracy" - lol. Yeah, it's a bit like Iran here all right...

strobe

Dudess wrote: »

"Ireland on the road to theocracy" - lol. Yeah, it's a bit like Iran here all right...

Well there are different severities(?) of theocracy Dudess. It doesn't have to mean a government completely subjugated to a church (not that Iran is) or that the state religion directly rules.

Google define (princeton online dictionary) gives a definition "the belief in government by divine guidance" wiki says "Theocracy is a form of government in which a god or deity is recognized as the state's supreme civil ruler, or in a higher sense, a form of government in which a state is governed by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided."

Technically our constitution states our government, state and it's ministers are under divine guidance. "In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred, We, the people of Éire,
Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,
Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation, And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations, Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution."

Our judges take an oath asking for divine guidance, "In the presence of Almighty God I, ___________, do solemnly and sincerely promise and declare that I will duly and faithfully and to the best of my knowledge and power execute the office of Chief Justice (or as the case may be) without fear or favour, affection or ill-will towards any man, and that I will uphold the Constitution and the laws. May God direct and sustain me."

So going on that we are a theocracy. It's more a 'technicality' of course, but it exists.