NASA Can't Find Unintended Acceleration Causes in Toyotas

langdang

Hope this hasn't been posted already: Latest update in this saga - even NASA can't find an issue (not that NASA haven't made glaring errors themselves but..)

http://spectrum.ieee.org/riskfactor/computing/it/nasa-cant-find-unintended-acceleration-causes-in-toyotas-electronic-throttle-control-system-


U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood who last year famously said owners of recalled Toyota vehicles should stop driving them (before taking that statement back) now is quoted in the press release as saying that:

"We enlisted the best and brightest engineers to study Toyota’s electronics systems, and the verdict is in. There is no electronic-based cause for unintended high-speed acceleration in Toyotas."


Pedal misapplication suspected....

Phill Ewinn

Have they ruled out bad car-ma for all those ugly cars?

Wolverine_1999

Yep apparently so.

You think Americans would have it easier as well seeing most of them would only be using 2 anyway!

Matt Simis

langdang wrote: »

Pedal misapplication suspected....

Wolverine_1999 wrote: »

Yep apparently so.
You think Americans would have it easier as well seeing most of them would only be using 2 anyway!

I dont accept some of the victims who were former trained drivers and/or decades of experience just "got the pedals mixed up", not just for a split second, but for 20min stretches. Total BS.

There were also reported cases of people who got their cars to the Toyota garages and got them into neutral and the thing was documented and witnessed rev'ing its nuts off in front of everybody.


From the very article linked, there were two known design failures, failures Toyota were accused of trying to cover up:

The two mechanical safety defects identified by NHTSA more than a year ago - "sticking" accelerator pedals and a design flaw that enabled accelerator pedals to become trapped by floor mats - remain the only known causes for these kinds of unsafe unintended acceleration incidents

In conjunction to those known and fatal design flaws, they have subsequently found software errors that cause sporadic acceleration, again from the linked article, though not attributed to the UA, it shows there are now documented failures in Toyotas software and hardware design

"There is a single failure mode found that, combined with driver input, can cause the throttle to jump to 15 degrees in certain conditions and may not generate a DTC [diagnostic trouble code].

The full report (didnt read it yet) apparently also found a fault in a accelerator potentiometer that also caused pedal operation issues. The PR is misleading in the sense its largely saying no singular, clean, software error was directly responsible.

It seems a combination of badly made parts is to blame to me.

cnocbui

Understanding what the initials NASA stand for and giving the task to a more appropriate organisation might have been a better idea.

Ghost Estate

NASA?

Pfft. They can't even find the plans for the rocket they used to get to the moon.

Mr Benevolent

LIGHTNING wrote: »

If the so called trained drivers knew anything they "should" know that if a throttle sticks open all you have to do is stand on the brake pedal until the car stops. All modern cars brakes are good enough to do that.

True, but they didn't know that, and they also didn't know that repeated lighter brake applications (to maintain speed) would leave them with no brakes.

Matt Simis

LIGHTNING wrote: »

If the so called trained drivers knew anything they "should" know that if a throttle sticks open all you have to do is stand on the brake pedal until the car stops. All modern cars brakes are good enough to do that.

So what exactly do you think they did!? Ive read frequently how those in the situation tried to brake the car till the pads faded. Many of the people were already at motorway speed. Seemingly your average Toyota US crap box has rubbish brakes.

There are also the unlucky souls that only have experienced a throttle surge at exactly the wrong moment. Imagine you were coming to a steady stop at an intersection and your Camry decided F-that and lunged you under an oncoming Mack truck within seconds, then someone 4000miles away says you should have just used the brake...


I cant understand how we can dismiss every single victim of a confirmed defect so easily, with unflinching support for the car manufacturer despite documented faults in their design and their outrageous attempts to squash the knowledge of the issue.

Zubeneschamali

Matt Simis wrote: »

So what exactly do you think they did!? Ive read frequently how those in the situation tried to brake the car till the pads faded.

But that's nonsense. Brake pedal flat to the floor, any and every car on sale will stop, no matter what the engine is doing.

Some reports said victims dabbed repeatedly at the brakes in a half-hearted way until they faded. Another report said the driver tapped the car into neutral, but the engine got even louder, so he put it back in gear!

These are not highly trained and experienced drivers, they are idiots.

dr.fuzzenstein

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

These are not highly trained and experienced drivers, they are idiots.

Don't you mean Americans?

D_murph

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

But that's nonsense. Brake pedal flat to the floor, any and every car on sale will stop, no matter what the engine is doing.

Some reports said victims dabbed repeatedly at the brakes in a half-hearted way until they faded. Another report said the driver tapped the car into neutral, but the engine got even louder, so he put it back in gear!

These are not highly trained and experienced drivers, they are idiots.

Why didnt the clown just turn the key and that would stop it ? No, much better idea to put the car back in gear again I suppose. What could go wrong there :rolleyes:?

Some people have such a low mechanical aptitude, they should not be allowed to own a car IMO.

galwaytt

cnocbui wrote: »

Understanding what the initials NASA stand for and giving the task to a more appropriate organisation might have been a better idea.

Ghost Estate wrote: »

NASA?

Pfft. They can't even find the plans for the rocket they used to get to the moon.

....indeed: from the Co that took a shortcut on an o-ring iirc.........??

langdang

galwaytt wrote: »

....indeed: from the Co that took a shortcut on an o-ring iirc.........??

Tis their metric/imperial mixup clanger that gets me:D

Zubeneschamali

D_murph wrote: »

Why didnt the clown just turn the key and that would stop it ?

This was some sort of Lexus, I think, with no keys. Apparently you have to keep your finger on the "On/Off" button for three seconds to turn off the motor, but very few owners know that.

Del2005

galwaytt wrote: »

....indeed: from the Co that took a shortcut on an o-ring iirc.........??

The company wanted the launch cancelled as they couldn't stand over the o-ring and NASA over ruled them

langdang wrote: »

Tis their metric/imperial mixup clanger that gets me:D

Was that not the ESA?

Matt Simis

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Brake fade is a different situation altogether. I have had a number of cars throttle stick open on me and all you have to do is either a)stand on the brakes and let the car stall b)pull it out of gear (although that might not be great if the car doesnt have a rev limiter c) failing that aim for some solid like an armco and rub the car against it.

a) see below
b) people tried this as I mentioned, in several cases the Toyota Auto gear box wouldnt shift to N from D at Redline RPM.
c) Ram the Armco? This isnt what you or I would do (I agree on the idea btw), its what your mother driving her 10 year old to school would do. Normal people, not car people.
These are regular folk, the idea of purposely crashing would be the last thing they are conditioned to do. Aside, they could still be rear ended or cause a major accident doing that.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

But that's nonsense. Brake pedal flat to the floor, any and every car on sale will stop, no matter what the engine is doing.

and a reminder that they were mostly at motorway speeds, in traffic. Slamming the brake pedal = rear ended, 10 car plus pileup ; dabbing the brakes to control speed = brake fad with the hopes it may fix itself
Such a terrible attitude to condemn an entire country as idiots that deserved to die in a badly made, flawed POS car.

Dunno why people on European forums are so quick to jump to the defense of a Jap car maker leading to the deaths of Americans, considering we know now the cars have faults.

Tea 1000

Matt Simis wrote: »

a) see below
b) people tried this as I mentioned, in several cases the Toyota Auto gear box wouldnt shift to N from D at Redline RPM.
c) Ram the Armco? This isnt what you or I would do (I agree on the idea btw), its what your mother driving her 10 year old to school would do. Normal people, not car people.
These are regular folk, the idea of purposely crashing would be the last thing they are conditioned to do. Aside, they could still be rear ended or cause a major accident doing that.


and a reminder that they were mostly at motorway speeds, in traffic. Slamming the brake pedal = rear ended, 10 car plus pileup ; dabbing the brakes to control speed = brake fad with the hopes it may fix itself
Such a terrible attitude to condemn an entire country as idiots that deserved to die in a badly made, flawed POS car.

Dunno why people on European forums are so quick to jump to the defense of a Jap car maker leading to the deaths of Americans, considering we know now the cars have faults.

Fair point, but a flaw is a flaw, doesn't make the car a piece of shít. Considering the amount of cars Toyota sell, being the number 1 car company in the world it's safe to assume that the number is high, and given that there are only 3 confirmed cases I think, then it's terrible that it happened at all, but blown out of proportion if you ask me.
People seem to think Toyota are the worst in the world and pure scum, and all their cars are absolute muck because of this. Therefore people get sick of the same old headlines. How many car companies had dodgy suspension in the past that broke causing a car to swerve out of control and kill someone, but got away with it because nothing was proven? I'd say plenty.
All car companies f**k up. Toyota f**ked up on their race to the top, but lets hope they've learned from it. It doesn't make all Toyota's muck all of a sudden.

Matt Simis

Tea 1000 wrote: »

.
People seem to think Toyota are the worst in the world and pure scum, and all their cars are absolute muck because of this. Therefore people get sick of the same old headlines. How many car companies had dodgy suspension in the past that broke causing a car to swerve out of control and kill someone, but got away with it because nothing was proven? I'd say plenty.
It doesn't make all Toyota's muck all of a sudden.

No they dont, people dont care and they have sold more year on year than before! Which is why the anti-anti-toyota forum talk is so misplaced.

Zubeneschamali

Tea 1000 wrote: »

It doesn't make all Toyota's muck all of a sudden.

To be clear, I think modern Toyota's are all muck: boring to drive, nasty to sit in The days of MR2s, Supras and even the Capri-esque Celica are gone, and we just have a parade of fridges on wheels.

The fact that I hate Toyotas doesn't mean I'll jump on the bandwagon with people who are too stupid to be allowed to drive when they have a problem with their car, don't stop, and then blame Toyota when it's too late and they crash.

Del2005

Matt Simis wrote: »

and a reminder that they were mostly at motorway speeds, in traffic. Slamming the brake pedal = rear ended, 10 car plus pileup ; dabbing the brakes to control speed = brake fad with the hopes it may fix itself
Such a terrible attitude to condemn an entire country as idiots that deserved to die in a badly made, flawed POS car.

If my car is out of control the last thing on my mind is "Is the person behind me too close". I'll do my best to stop MY car and let other worry about stopping their vehicles in. Though I would have a check to make sure there where no big vehicles too close

Matt Simis wrote: »

Dunno why people on European forums are so quick to jump to the defense of a Jap car maker leading to the deaths of Americans, considering we know now the cars have faults.

All car companies have made bad cars that have killed people. For some reason as soon as the Toyota became the #1 car maker they suddenly had a lot of faults highlighted in the US press! Toyota may have made a PR mistake, but they aren't the worst for dangerous faults or covering up quality issues.

Absurdum

Del2005 wrote: »

For some reason as soon as the Toyota became the #1 car maker they suddenly had a lot of faults highlighted in the US press!

that's what I reckon is behind this too

RandomAccess

I thought the lack of brake override was one of the main problems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZZNR9O3xZM

Matt Simis

Del2005 wrote: »

All car companies have made bad cars that have killed people. For some reason as soon as the Toyota became the #1 car maker they suddenly had a lot of faults highlighted in the US press! Toyota may have made a PR mistake, but they aren't the worst for dangerous faults or covering up quality issues.

Thats a BS conspiracy theory, they have been #1 or close to it for years upon years. This has been a reported failure over 5 years that finally culminated with an investigation when the victims family's and emergency services could squarely lay the blame on a car fault.

Im not saying no one thought bad press for them wouldnt equate to a bit of a boost to US firms at all, but thats not "why" this issue came to light at all. And as noted, Toyota continue to enjoy excellent sales as most people dont seem to care or know better. They arent some harshly treated underdog.

Del2005

I'm not denying there's a dangerous fault with some of their cars or they reacted to it wrong, what I'm saying is that they aren't the only car maker with dangerous faults in their cars. They are the only ones who's reputation is being questioned.
There have been a few cases which can't be replicated which have led to a few unfortunate deaths. How many people have died in other manufacturers cars due to design flaws? How many other manufacturers cars have serious reliability issues which are costing the owners thousands to fix, yet the manufacturer denies the issue?

As I said, all car makers have and still get it badly wrong. It's just that Toyota are getting a raw deal, what does NASA know about cars? Why didn't they get Ford or GM to look into it? All manufacturers buy each others vehicles to test, how come they hasn't been more noise from them about killer Toyota's?

Paparazzo

cnocbui wrote: »

Understanding what the initials NASA stand for and giving the task to a more appropriate organisation might have been a better idea.

Del2005 wrote: »

It's just that Toyota are getting a raw deal, what does NASA know about cars? Why didn't they get Ford or GM to look into it?

It wasn't just nasa
With all the tests they did it's clear enough to see that it's driver error. With the sheer amount of toyotas, if the problem was a lepracaun in the boot, you can guarantee that some people from the millions of toyota owners would say that they had that problem