Career: Java -> C#/ASP .Net

homerjk

Hey Guys/Gals,

I’m not sure whether I should put this here or in work/jobs but anyhoo...

I'm currently a Java web application developer with about 5 years experience, however I want to get out of it and into C#/ASP .Net development. For the second time in my career the company I work for has introduced this proprietary Java framework that is completely of no use to anyone who is serious about their career. Real cut and paste stuff, no more interaction with the DB, no html/xslt’s, Javascript, XMl nothing.

I see that there are quite a few jobs in the C#/ASP area and from what little C# I’ve ever used I liked it. Also from speaking to others there is less chance of people writing their own frameworks as this area of development is well standardized across the board.

I was wondering would any of you have any advice as to how I would best go about changing the path of my career? If I go any further with my Java career (I’ve already been offered a senior position here so many people have left because of the new framework) the money is getting bigger and bigger and it will be hard for me to pull out of it. I'm currently on 45k plus OT and I’ve been applying for junior C# development positions in the low 30’s but I haven’t even got any “Thanks, but no thanks” responses. I'm afraid that they may not trust me and may be wary of my CV applying for the position or they may be casting me aside straight away regardless.

Is there any course/certificates I could do that would increase my chances of getting work in this area? I met with one “specialised” recruiter who said he would help me and when I asked him the question about doing a course or cert he said it would be a waste of my time and that I should just try and get some experience. I did a large enough fourth year project in C# and I’ve used C++ and VB .NET the odd time in my career but no web development in it per se.

I realise that I am in a very privileged position to have a good job at all but I am just sick of my current job and if I stay in it much longer I am losing all the core development skills that a good programmer needs.

Do you think that I would be totally wasting my time as I would always be coming up against someone who has proper C#/ASP experience? Or do you think I will just have to cut my losses and start way at the bottom again? Like a 25k graduate job? I don’t know if I could do that!

Any help at all is really appreciated!
Thanks.
J.

Giblet

It's possible to get .NET jobs as a Java developer, but you might find it hard to get anywhere near your current salary. What they will be looking for, especially with ASP.NET is strong front-end skills as well as a general knowledge of .NET. It's easy enough to pick up the syntax stuff etc, but you might be expected to work with webservices and javascript and know stuff like the ASP Lifecycle inside out.

The best you can do is to start messing around with the technology yourself, starting from basic stuff like CRUD apps, then improving it with javascript and webservices, and writing a few stored procedures etc. I'd become familiar with Databinding as well. It shouldn't be much of a problem, but this is the very basic stuff you would be expected to know. We've hired a few java guys who were good at programming and showed initiative learning this stuff on their own.

clearz

You deffently shouldn't have to start at the bottom. First read a few books on transfering from J2EE to .Net. Alot of the concepts are similar and there are a lot of frameworks that have versions for both platforms such as Hibernate and Spring. Would you consider taking a .Net job for a year to cut your teeth and then start freelancing. There should be no problem in becomming expert in both J2EE and .NET and this would really stand to you as a feelancer.

homerjk

Thanks for getting back to me lads.

Well I would have no problem taking on a role in the low 30's. I have no epxectations to get next nor near my current salary.

I do have a ton of javascript experience so at least thats something. I do take on board on your suggestion about messing around with the technologies on my own time, thats the kind of question I was getting at. Like if i did a lot of work on my own time would that count or would some sort of course/cert make me more attractive (not physically!)

I suppose its just the thing of the right place at the right time and getting the right company to realize that I am talented programmer and that if one understands core programming principals and has a willingness to learn and work hard then i would be a good fit. I was just trying to find out what i could do to get a leg up!

Giblet

An interviewer might throw you some questions, and it would be your benefit to answer them correctly, especially as you have no experience. I'd ask someone with experience the same questions as someone without, it's the correct answer I'm interested in.

homerjk

Cheers Giblet, now to try and convince someone to interview me!

stevenmu

Tbh I wouldn't see using some crappy framework as a reason to bail, either on your current job or on Java as a whole (and I'm as big an MS fanboy as you're likely to find). C#/Asp.net is great to work with, but I personally wouldn't be inclined to drop far down the ladder only to spend the next few years working to get back to the same level.

IMHO, without knowing your specifics, I don't see why using this framework would be so disasterous to your career. You already have 5 years experience, you should already have the core Java fundamentals completely nailed, doing the same stuff for the next few years isn't going to make you any more appealing in that regard. But using some framework and potentially different technologies and patterns is giving you something new and adding more strings to your bow. This IMHO makes you more desirable to employers, not less.

If you do want to leave, you could either hold out for an equivalent (or near) C#/Asp.net role, go for an equivalent Java role, or possibly even consider taking that senior position for a year or so and using it as a springboard to a better role somewhere else.

homerjk

Steve I do understand what you mean but this framework is just a joke. Two people have already left and the management dont care because it is the type of framework that you can hire a grad and he can start pumping out web apps within a week. Whereas before we were writing the Java classes, tons of javascript, xslts, xsps, css, all the JDBC stuff, all that is now gone. You never leave the Java class, you literally type in "seclectBox", build it and this webpage opens up with a selectbox there, its wrapped to kingdom come and you lose all knowledge of how stuff works in the background.

I do however agree with you in that I'm not going to jump ship on Java completely at the drop of a hat, its just that ive been burnt twice now at this stage and having never worked on Spring/Hibernate projects which the majority of roles around my years of experience are looking for, I was mulling over the option of getting into C# before it was too late.

Giblet

You should really look into Spring and Hibernate as they encapsulate a lot of the stuff that can crop up in .NET. Server controls are the same idea as in Spring, MVC is now in the 3rd revision, a lot of the concepts will cross pollenate.

none

I come from the MS background but when I saw Java in 1998, I knew that was the best technology.

I did spend some time on both MS (VB & C#) and Java sides and I still feel I prefer Java. Recruiters often send me MS jobs but I say I stick to Java for now.

In Java 5 there were major changes and I believe most were a huge deviation from the original clean-cut concept. For me, that could be a reason big enough to deflect to .NET or some scripting toolkit. Using some limiting framework might also be tough and I remember how people were resigning when Pega was being pushed in my previous company. I didn't work with Pega but it's probably something similar to what you describe.

But Spring or Hibernate are also frameworks and their purpose is similar to Pega's and other kids on the block - less coding, more configuring. That's the same idea as the ones behind CRM, CMS, ERP, etc. And actually, it's close to the Java WORA slogan as in essence you write your fremeworks/components/classes only once and then just build an application from these blocks.

The fact that there's more frameworks in Java world is actually an advantage rather than a disadvantage as it confirms the level of maturity and choice provided by the language. You won't get that in .NET due to two reasons: it's not as open as Java and it's not as old as Java. .NET is actually pretty good and provides some elegant features missing in Java but it's still the younger sibling with all the consequences.

If you don't care about the money, that's fine for the time being. But at some stage the money will really be the price tag attached to your experience. Even now, I think Java roles in general pay more and in the future it won't change much. So if you have some good Java experience now, stick with it, improve it and, eventually, capitalise on it.

One thing I didn't get what is your personal preference here? Regardless of anything else, how do you feel about Java and .NET? That is also crucial.

homerjk

Cheers none, thats quite the reply!

You have given me a lot to think about and to be honest as I do think about trying to get of this place the options I am thinking of are the one yourself and giblet mentioned. If I stay in Java I am determined to get a role that includes Spring/hibernate, at the minute as I have no experience in it at all thats finding bit tough to get a role that suits... The other option then is the C# route.

I see where you're coming from in that this day and age it is the done thing to have some sort of framework and you do a lot more configuring rather than coding and to a certain extent that is what we were doing, but this new one is like paint by numbers!

In answer to your question, i would probably prefer Java but to no great extent. Especially now when its trying to make me a zombie!

Anyway, thanks all for the great advice, its giving me a lot to think about and i know im not going to make any rash decisions...

stevenmu

homerjk wrote: »

Steve I do understand what you mean but this framework is just a joke. Two people have already left and the management dont care because it is the type of framework that you can hire a grad and he can start pumping out web apps within a week. Whereas before we were writing the Java classes, tons of javascript, xslts, xsps, css, all the JDBC stuff, all that is now gone. You never leave the Java class, you literally type in "seclectBox", build it and this webpage opens up with a selectbox there, its wrapped to kingdom come and you lose all knowledge of how stuff works in the background.

That sounds great to me

I love the idea of frameworks, they let you focus on delivering the important functionality without wasting time on the repetitive nitty-gritty. Although for it to be truly successful the framework does need to allow you into the nitty-gritty when it's needed, and of course management needs to recognise that there are times when this is required. Since you seem to be willing/eager to get into spring/hibernate I'm guessing that you see the benefits of frameworks and in your case it's either a crappy framework or management aren't willing to be flexible with it. In that case I'd probably be looking to get out too

homerjk

Yeah totally, frameworks are great, we were actually already using a great XML based one but this one is a joke because as you we have no access now anymore to the nitty gritty. No more javascript, css/html styling. You have to ring up some chap and get him to add it to the framework if you want something added. Management are a joke to be honest, they are quite happily replacing senior developers with lads straight off the campus because they know dont need to have any great knowledge of whats going.

So im definitely getting out, just not sure to what yet!