Ma Ya Didn't tell me 70% of Accidental Deaths Were Men

CDfm

70 per cent of 2010 accidental deaths were male 14/02/11, 6:54 pm 341 Views No Comments
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MEN ACCOUNTED for more than two-thirds of the total number of claims for accidental death made to Irish Life in 2010, the insurer has said.
Releasing statistics on the number of claims received in the last five years, the life assurance company said it had paid over €1bn to claimants in the last five years, including over €600m for death claims and €272m for income protection.
70 per cent of the accidental death claims received in the last twelve months alone, it said, were in respect of the deaths of male clients.


http://www.thejournal.ie/70-per-cent-of-2010-accidental-deaths-were-male-2011-2/

Wow - last year was the pits and I attended several funerals. Deaths not recorded as suicide get recorded as unclassified.

And check out www.thejournal.ie it is great and very punchy.

Cicero

When you hear of a car crash on the news, with the words "...and no other car was involved.."...or ..." a single vehicle collision...."..., I tend to classify them in my own mind as potential suicides...maybe I'm wrong doing this?

mikemac

I saw the thread title and never even thought about suicide, I thought the thread was on workplace accidents
Interesting the first two posts did.

Two most dangerous jobs are construction and farming, fatalities every year.
And you'll find mostly men involved in this

CDfm

I know of one guy who left work one lunchtime - paid the guy who cuts his lawn & killed himself for the insurance money.

Not nice.

stupidusername

yeah I wouldn't have assumed it was anything to do with suicide. Is it?

the single car collision I would assume it's someone falling asleep at the wheel, or speeding and losing control. I dunno really, never really thought about it. is either here anything to do with suicide?

mikemac

Falling asleep at the wheel is a killer alright. I used to finish college on a Friday, drive two hours home, work a shift and drive home at 8am the next morning

I was stupid!
As I sometimes came close to falling asleep at the wheel yet some would suspect I was a possible suicide case if I crashed? Well according to this thread

Maybe just me but I accept whatever the coroner says. If they say it's accidental that's what I believe

metrovelvet

I know a family where the dad [divorced] shot himself in the head after he lost his job. My guess is so the family would get the payout as he thought he was worthless after that. Very sad.

Is suicide an accidental death as it is on purpose?

mikemac

metrovelvet wrote: »

I know a family where the dad [divorced] shot himself in the head after he lost his job. My guess is so the family would get the payout as he thought he was worthless after that. Very sad.

This might sound awfully blunt but would insurance even pay out in that case?

stupidusername

my dad is constantly falling asleep while driving, I mean drifting off, but still. Hate being in the car with him. he has sleep apnea but uses that as an excuse not to bother getting any sleep. does 13 hour days at work. I can't believe he hasn't crashed yet.

amacachi

metrovelvet wrote: »

I know a family where the dad [divorced] shot himself in the head after he lost his job. My guess is so the family would get the payout as he thought he was worthless after that. Very sad.

Is suicide an accidental death as it is on purpose?

In this country judges seem to want to avoid calling suicides suicides. One case I know of was ruled death by misadventure. On a thread elsewhere last year someone posted a PDF of suicides by county by year and Leitrim varied from 0 to 12, most likely depending on which judge was around for the inquests. Whether it's for insurance reasons or not I don't know.

Leeg17

I always thought that they don't pay out life insurance for suicides, though I'm open to correction.

Still terribly sad though

Otis Driftwood

I would imagine that suicide would automatically render a life insurance policy null and void.

amacachi

feelingstressed wrote: »

This might sound awfully blunt but would insurance even pay out in that case?

Depends. If it was the case that that was the only reason and/or was stated by the person who did it then I doubt they'd have to payout. When financial reasons aren't the cause and/or there are mental health issues then they usually pay out AFAIK.

metrovelvet

feelingstressed wrote: »

This might sound awfully blunt but would insurance even pay out in that case?

I was wondering that too and I think some policies do. This was in the US and he worked for one of the big five finance companies.

Also causes of death are not always precise on the death certs either.

CDfm

You might be right.

Personally, I think that there is a lot of statistical and other information that supporrts the idea that many are suicide.

The phenomenum is not new but may be new to Ireland because of the catholic stigma associated with suicide.

ABSTRACT: This paper reexamines the “Scandinavian Suicide Phenomenon,” the observation that reported suicides are typically high in Denmark and Sweden and typically low in Norway even though these three countries seem otherwise similar. It has been suggested that in Norway more suicides are reported as accidental death or as death due to unknown causes. This paper explores this possibility by means of a detailed examination of causes of death. Nine other countries are included in the comparisons to facilitate interpretation of the findings. It was found that there were significantly higher rates of accidental and unclassified deaths in Norway than in Denmark or Sweden; if it is assumed that many of these are suicide, this could account for the reported differences in suicide rates.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1943-278X.1973.tb00113.x/full

And this

Coroner warns of rampant rural suicide at inquest of five men


www.bidfun.ie/apple-ipad-16-gb




By Eoghan MacConnell and Gordon Deegan

Tuesday January 25 2011

A CORONER warned yesterday how suicide is rampant in rural areas as he heard five inquests into the deaths of men who took their own lives.
Dr Brian Mahon, acting coroner for Co Offaly, said: "It is just an example of the rampant and really serious situation in Ireland and in particular in the rural areas where there seems to be an increase in these suicide deaths."
Of those who died by suicide, all were male and they were aged between 32 and 55. A sixth inquest related to a Polish national who lost his life in a fatal traffic accident.
While the cases date back to last year, Mr Mahon said there had been no let up in the number of cases for 2011.
"There is a very serious situation abroad in the country, it has not improved," he said.
And in Co Clare, three times more people died from taking their own lives than the number who died on the county's roads, according to provisional figures from the coroner's office. There were 15 suspected suicides in the county last year, compared to four road traffic fatalities.
But the suicide total may be even higher as, in some cases, the cause of death has not been fully determined.
Yesterday, consultant psychiatrist Moosajee Bhamjee called for the same energy and funding from the Government that had been put in place to tackle road safety to be put into suicide prevention.
"The figures are very worrying," Dr Bhamjee said. He called for a hard-hitting media campaign on suicide.
Policy
However, he conceded that government policy alone could not solve the issue. "It is a societal problem and people have to learn better coping skills."
Helen Dunne of the Irish Rural Link group said a combination of financial pressure and isolation had contributed to the problem. "The economic situation has had a huge effect. They have huge pressure in their own lives meeting bills," she said.
"If people are not in the workplace there is less social contact so it's not just the breakdown in finances."

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/coroner-warns-of-rampant-rural-suicide-at-inquest-of-five-men-2509048.html

CDfm

Here is a great slide show from UCD

http://www.nosp.ie/survey_07.pdf

But lest we forget

Patterns of Suicide Among Young Women in Ireland 1980-2005

Since the beginning of the1980s the overall Irish suicide rate has doubled, with most of this rise being attributable to suicide
among men. Although male suicide increased substantially during the course of the Irish economic boom, this period also
experienced a significant rise in the rate of young female suicide. In fact, figures released from the Central Statistics Office
reveal that the rate of suicide among women aged 15-24 years doubled during this period.


http://geary.ucd.ie/behaviour/index.php/Home/Investigating-Factors-Contributing-to-Suicide-Amongst-Women.html

Rubik.

feelingstressed wrote: »

I saw the thread title and never even thought about suicide, I thought the thread was on workplace accidents
Interesting the first two posts did.

Two most dangerous jobs are construction and farming, fatalities every year.
And you'll find mostly men involved in this

There were 47 workplace deaths last year, I'd imagine they would have been almost exclusively male.

amacachi

CDfm wrote: »

Here is a great slide show from UCD

http://www.nosp.ie/survey_07.pdf

But lest we forget

So it went up at the same rate, but a greater numerical increase in men?

CDfm

Otis Driftwood wrote: »

I would imagine that suicide would automatically render a life insurance policy null and void.

I worked in the UK for a major insurance company and ,in general, suicide in the first year was excluded from a policy.

I also think even that was not the case for mortgage policies.

A life assurance policy is a contract that pays out on the happening of an event, death. So if a person does not disclose an event to the insurer , for example, a heart condition that they have had treatment for and a few weeks later dies as a result, you would have a claim rejected.

With suicide, if a person was being treated for clinical depression and did not disclose it , that could result in a refusal to pay out. If it had been disclosed not so.

So as a rule , if a policy is properly written, it will pay out unless their is a specific clause excluding suicide.

CDfm

amacachi wrote: »

So it went up at the same rate, but a greater numerical increase in men?

Thats about the size of it.

Numerically, its around 4 to 5 times higher in men.

But, female suicide is still twice the annual work related deaths -so it is still significant.

The uncategorised deaths - well they are significant but will not bump up the figures more than 20 % .


A few UK links on insurance here, in general, provided the application has no lies on it, the premiums are paid up to date and the policy is more than 1 or 2 years old and suicide is not excluded -then it will pay out.

http://www.monetos.co.uk/insurance/life-insurance/terms-conditions/payout-refusal/

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/insurance/life/article.html?in_article_id=398184&in_page_id=36

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/7326304/City-executive-delayed-suicide-so-wife-could-claim-life-insurance.html

sam34

to record a verdict of suicide in ireland, the coronor has to have evicence/proof that the person intended to take their life.

so a lot of deaths that everyone actually knows are suicides get recorded as "death by misadventure" or "accidental death" instead.

its the same in scotland (or else wales, i never remember which), whereas in england and scotland or wales they can return a verdict of suicide if they have reasonable suspicion of the intent.

stupidusername

sam34 wrote: »

to record a verdict of suicide in ireland, the coronor has to have evicence/proof that the person intended to take their life.

so a lot of deaths that everyone actually knows are suicides get recorded as "death by misadventure" or "accidental death" instead.

its the same in scotland (or else wales, i never remember which), whereas in england and scotland or wales they can return a verdict of suicide if they have reasonable suspicion of the intent.

I find this a little odd. I suppose I understand though, most people tend to see suicide as a shameful thing. Even the wording of saying someone's killed themselves has been changed to 'died by suicide'.

Ickle Magoo

sam34 wrote: »

to record a verdict of suicide in ireland, the coronor has to have evicence/proof that the person intended to take their life.

so a lot of deaths that everyone actually knows are suicides get recorded as "death by misadventure" or "accidental death" instead.

its the same in scotland (or else wales, i never remember which), whereas in england and scotland or wales they can return a verdict of suicide if they have reasonable suspicion of the intent.

In England and Wales, all suspected suicides are subject to public hearing or inquest and only if it can be shown beyond all reasonable doubt that the deceased acted deliberately in order to end their life can a verdict of suicide be ruled while in Scotland the procurator fiscal routinely investigates all unexplained deaths...

sam34

beyond all reasonable doubt is different from having proof though.

here in ireland they look for clear expressions of intent, ie suicide notes, having told someone of intent etc

CDfm

sam34 wrote: »

so a lot of deaths that everyone actually knows are suicides get recorded as "death by misadventure" or "accidental death" instead.

number wise the unaccounted for deaths seemed to add around 20% or so more.

Is that about right, or, what are the numbers actually like.

Ickle Magoo

sam34 wrote: »

beyond all reasonable doubt is different from having proof though.

here in ireland they look for clear expressions of intent, ie suicide notes, having told someone of intent etc

Oh it is & I know, I was just clarifying the differences in the UK approaches. :cool:

Why the proof? Is the reticence to call a suicide a throw-back to religion or something here?

sam34

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Oh it is & I know, I was just clarifying the differences in the UK approaches. :cool:

Why the proof? Is the reticence to call a suicide a throw-back to religion or something here?

thanks for that, i can never remember whether its scotland or wales that has a different approach to england.

partly, i'd imagine. back in the hey day of the church, those who died by suicide could not be buried in consecrated ground, so they'd have to be buried outside/near the graveyard. imagine the added distress for families, its horrific. plus suicide was a crime (good luck to the guard serving the summons...)

and then i guess possibly a (?) mis-guided attempt to protect families in some way, i dunno. possibly the insurance pay-out issue also, though i'm only speculating on that.

sam34

CDfm wrote: »

number wise the unaccounted for deaths seemed to add around 20% or so more.

Is that about right, or, what are the numbers actually like.

do you mean 20% to the current suicide figures?

i dont know, tbh, what the proper figures are, but i know from my own experience and that of colleagues that deaths we have been (unfortunately) confident were suicides were not recorded as such.

its actually a huge injustice, in taht if the true figures were revealed then there may be more public education campaigns and more funding.

the issue of the disparity of the funds given to reduce road deaths vs suicide deaths is shocking, when you consider which is by far the greater cause of death.

CDfm

sam34 wrote: »

partly, i'd imagine. back in the hey day of the church, those who died by suicide could not be buried in consecrated ground, so they'd have to be buried outside/near the graveyard. imagine the added distress for families, its horrific. plus suicide was a crime (good luck to the guard serving the summons...)

.

In my home town, there is a Quaker graveyard , literally on the golf course which borders onto a football pitch beside the local mental hospital.

That is where suicides and, I understand, some patients were buried.

It really was very hush hush.

sam34

CDfm wrote: »

In my home town, there is a Quaker graveyard , literally on the golf course which borders onto a football pitch beside the local mental hospital.

That is where suicides and, I understand, some patients were buried.

It really was very hush hush.

think of the anguish caused to the families though, to think their loved one would be denied a consecrated burial ground and subsequent entry to heaven.

despicable really. more unnecessary sh1te by the church, similar to their concept of limbo.

CDfm

sam34 wrote: »

think of the anguish caused to the families though, to think their loved one would be denied a consecrated burial ground and subsequent entry to heaven.

despicable really. more unnecessary sh1te by the church, similar to their concept of limbo.

Absolutely, in my Dads extended family sometime in the mid to late 40's a relative of my Dads killed himself. The priest wanted an undertaking from his Dad to go to mass every Sunday to allow the burial to go ahead.

The family built a tomb on some private land, and, that is where he was buried.

Giselle

Men being the major breadwinners in many families might be more likely to take out accidental death cover surely? I'm sure there aren't more women claiments because there might be less women insured for it, which might explain some of the disparity, as well as occupational hazards.

Is it not also true that suicide attempts by women tend to favour less decisive methods? Men are more likely to shoot or hang themselves for example, whereas women overdose or cut themselves, leaving an opportunity to be found before death occurs.

The single car thing can often be explained, as has been said, by losing control of the car, or tiredness, or other factors I can't think of, not just suicide in disguise.

I think the categorisation of deaths does, as Sam64 says, do the real numbers a disservice. I don't intend to trivialise either the numbers or the effect of suicide, but I don't think we should assume suicide where there isn't actual grounds to indicate its the case.

Thats a different kind of disservice and the speculation doesn't bring the families any healing.

banie01

The way suicide numbers are corrolated in Ireland also does our mental services a great disservice!
The last time I saw numbers released I think the numbers were at @500 suicides per year.
Now while I know my following statement is anectodal and in no way scientific, consider this.
Since 2002 I know of at least 30 people all under the age of 30 whom I would consider friends, acquaintances or colleagues that have taken their own lives.
Of this number 4 were recorded as suicides!

Now if this is the kind of data that our Government agencies plan their suicide prevention strategies and budget allocations around surely it is seriously flawed!

I live in Limerick City and those are just the deaths of people known to me that hand on heart I can attest to, factor in the deaths of people not known to me but about whom you'd here some rumour and gossip and even disregarding half of that total it still amounts to a huge number!
A trip to a cemetery in Limerick will reinforce this notion, not just about suicide but accidental deaths too!
The amount of young dead is truly frightening and little or no action seems to be taken around the 'preventable' deaths.
My own wife died at 26 from Illness but it is frightening to see the numbers of young people's headstones dotted around her grave and those numbers growing every week.

The stigma surrounding how these deaths are recorded needs to be addressed as without proper statistics any strategy to address the issues surrounding the causes(Be it suicide or accident) and prevention is practically worthless no matter how well intentioned.

SoulTrader

CDfm wrote: »

I worked in the UK for a major insurance company and ,in general, suicide in the first year was excluded from a policy.

I also think even that was not the case for mortgage policies.

A life assurance policy is a contract that pays out on the happening of an event, death. So if a person does not disclose an event to the insurer , for example, a heart condition that they have had treatment for and a few weeks later dies as a result, you would have a claim rejected.

With suicide, if a person was being treated for clinical depression and did not disclose it , that could result in a refusal to pay out. If it had been disclosed not so.

So as a rule , if a policy is properly written, it will pay out unless their is a specific clause excluding suicide.

Yep, I think in the US there's a 2 year exclusion period at the inception of a life policy where death by suicide is not paid out. Obviously just to protect the companies (and everyone else's premiums) from people rushing out to buy a policy days before they take their own lives.

CDfm

SoulTrader wrote: »

Yep, I think in the US there's a 2 year exclusion period at the inception of a life policy where death by suicide is not paid out. Obviously just to protect the companies (and everyone else's premiums) from people rushing out to buy a policy days before they take their own lives.

That is true & in the US there are federal laws.

An issue with Gerry Ryan's death,as an example, and the inquest will have concerned the factual information on any life assurance claims.

CDfm

banie01 wrote: »

The way suicide numbers are corrolated in Ireland also does our mental services a great disservice!
The last time I saw numbers released I think the numbers were at @500 suicides per year.
Now while I know my following statement is anectodal and in no way scientific, consider this.
Since 2002 I know of at least 30 people all under the age of 30 whom I would consider friends, acquaintances or colleagues that have taken their own lives.
Of this number 4 were recorded as suicides!.

I read somewhere that the numbers going to A&E for self harm is 60-70,000 per annum.

So yes -proper statistics on suicides and self harm do seem to be lacking.

amacachi

banie01 wrote: »

The way suicide numbers are corrolated in Ireland also does our mental services a great disservice!
The last time I saw numbers released I think the numbers were at @500 suicides per year.
Now while I know my following statement is anectodal and in no way scientific, consider this.
Since 2002 I know of at least 30 people all under the age of 30 whom I would consider friends, acquaintances or colleagues that have taken their own lives.
Of this number 4 were recorded as suicides!

Same thing here. I saw some stats and the number from Louth was laughably low. I knew of as many that happened in the space of 6 months just in this town and that was the amount that supposedly happened in a while year in the whole country.

CDfm

amacachi wrote: »

Same thing here. I saw some stats and the number from Louth was laughably low. I knew of as many that happened in the space of 6 months just in this town and that was the amount that supposedly happened in a while year in the whole country.

There is a cluster effect where you get one you get copycats.

On the edge of my group of friends and aquaintances last year we were touched by it.

The people were not young either 35 +.

A thing that strikes me is that I do not think the female figures are accurate based on my experience working with a voluntary organisation I would say they are around 40% of the male figure.

Not recording the figures correctly in some way also lets the authorities off the hook in giving the issue the serious priority it deserves

This is the New Zealand Governments reason as to why it is important

Suicide is an indicator of the mental health and social wellbeing of society and a
major cause of injury-related death in the population.

The NZ report is here

http://socialreport.msd.govt.nz/documents/2008/sr08-health.pdf


So by burying the information by definition you loose a very important tool to measure the well being of your population and also information on how to improve service delivery.

It is a kind of well being index.

Here are the European tables and they are only as accurate as the information supplied to them by government.

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/refreshTableAction.do?tab=table&plugin=0&pcode=tps00122&language=en