Has anyone seen a Nissan Leaf yet?

Ghost Estate

They were supposed to be released this month, I havn't seen any yet though. Not my type of car but it would be interesting to see if they are selling well

Cabaal

esb havent really installed any recharge points yet so itll be another while before we see them around

bop1977

IIRC They are due into showrooms in march and first deliveries should be in April.

According to the Irish times podcast at least 500 people have shown a real intrest in the car or else placed a deposit can't remember which.

bazz26

A bit expensive at circa €30k. €30k buys you alot of car these days.

650Ginge

I think you will find they are 23k after incentives and you are right that will still buy a lot of something else....but they only cost €2.70 for 100 miles.....

ESB have installed lots of them, they just need lots more....check out their website.....but even if you get to a charging point, will you want to sit there for 8 hours until you get a full charge....

the biggest problem is the range you could not drive dublin to belfast on one charge then you need to stay there for 8 hours on charge and not be able to get back.......

L1011

Seen one driving in Crumlin/Drimnagh area.

It looks like someone flipped an Almera hatch.

n97 mini

I have seen one. Have also seen a Mitsubishi MiEV.

L1011

n97 mini wrote: »

I have seen one. Have also seen a Mitsubishi MiEV.

Saw one of those too, on its way to Cork.

On its way to Cork the only way one can get there - on the back of an ESB flatbed truck!

Bruthal

650Ginge wrote: »

I think you will find they are 23k after incentives and you are right that will still buy a lot of something else....but they only cost €2.70 for 100 miles.....

ESB have installed lots of them, they just need lots more....check out their website.....but even if you get to a charging point, will you want to sit there for 8 hours until you get a full charge....

the biggest problem is the range you could not drive dublin to belfast on one charge then you need to stay there for 8 hours on charge and not be able to get back.......

I think its a half hour charge on a charging station at garages etc. 8 hours at a home one.

n97 mini

Saw both driving around Liffey Valley or thereabouts. Not on the same day of course.

CabanasBoy

Saw one on Wicklow St (Dublin) a few weeks back, must have been a demonstrator, bit weird looking! Even if it had a regular engine I reckon it'd struggle for sales. Anyone hazard a guess on how much Nissan lose on each one sold?

colm_mcm

Saw a white leaf in ennis last week, was gonna spin into the dealers, but the thoughts of being around that many jukes and tiidas put me off.

robtri

CabanasBoy wrote: »

Saw one on Wicklow St (Dublin) a few weeks back, must have been a demonstrator, bit weird looking! Even if it had a regular engine I reckon it'd struggle for sales. Anyone hazard a guess on how much Nissan lose on each one sold?

a lot less than VW on the veyron

Absurdum

seen one late last year, not too bad looking imo

bop1977

650Ginge wrote: »

I think you will find they are 23k after incentives and you are right that will still buy a lot of something else....but they only cost €2.70 for .

they are 30k after government incentives but metallic paint and dealer and related charges are extra again.

This website has a lot of info:
http://www.nissan.ie/NissanLeaf/BuyingALeaf/PricingAndRunningCosts.aspx

In Ireland we buy the whole car including the battery whereas on the continent they rent the battery.

colm_mcm

bop1977 wrote: »

In Ireland we buy the whole car including the battery whereas on the continent they rent the battery.

Shur why would ya rent anyway, its dead money! Better to get a huge loan.

Mr Benevolent

I've seen one in Ballsbridge. I laughed.

Anan1

Confab wrote: »

I've seen one in Ballsbridge. I laughed.

That'll be a good story for your grandchildren.;)

Bruthal

colm_mcm wrote: »

Shur why would ya rent anyway, its dead money! Better to get a huge loan.

With batteries there will be deterioration, renting may well work out better, depending on the rental fee, and and also depending on what guarantee comes with the batteries here. Replacing them would be a very expensive cost.

Hi Everyone.

There is no denying the fact the Leaf is expensive, however in the U.K they expect it to hold it's value much better tan any other car on the road!

Nissan should have leased the battery like the Renault Fluence. In 5 years time Nissan and of course Renault, will offer around 200 miles range, maybe more and it will use a MUCH longer life NMC battery.

I wouldn't worry too much about longevity of the battery in the Leaf, once it's kept charged to between 20-90 % most of the time it will last well over 150000 miles. Frequent charges are better than totally emptying the battery! Even though they have a calender life I would still expect it to last 8 years possibly 10!

Mercedes F-Cell will be available in 5 years at a cost similar to a diesel hybrid, and they also say they will be cheaper than battery cars in n a few years after that which makes sense considering they don't need large expensive batteries!

Ireland needs Nuclear, sooner or later. Renewable energy will never meet 100% our energy needs and Nuclear is not the technology it was years ago and Chernobyl was a result of poor decisions and very bad reactor design!

There is enough Nuclear fuel including Thorium to last thousands of years and the Holy Grail Nuclear fusion using sea water is some way away yet!

Fusion using Lithium in sea water will give us an estimated 60 million years of energy and deuterium from sea water, more complicated to use will last around 150 BILLION years! Nuclear fusion will happen they are getting closer, but for now Nuclear Fission is the answer.

Charging E.V's for 8 hours isn't a problem for most neither is 100 miles range, but as the range goes up to say 300 miles or more the charging time goes up considerably. And fast charging many thousands of cars at say 300 volts at maybe 50-100 amps will kill the electricity grid,no doubt about that!

And the E.S.B are installing slow 220 volt chargers by the way, so don't expect to arrive somewhere nearly empty and to charge to full in under 8 hours! It might be enough to get enough Juice for a few miles home, but the majority of charging will be done at home.

Hydrogen from Nuclear is the answer and Ireland needs to get over it's fear of Nuclear energy and not buy it from the British!. We could be almost 100% energy independent using Nuclear from Thorium, Thorium reactors can not reach melt down and lots of countries are looking into it now after it was discovered in the 1950's but never caught on because the Americans and Russians couldn't use the waste fuel to make Nukes! It's mad how things come about! Thorium reactors can also be made much smaller and can be turned on and off when required. We could meet all our energy needs from Nuclear, heating, transport etc.

Co2 is not why I am for all this technology, it's mainly exhaust emissions, coal to make electricity etc. Man made climate change I do not agree with, after all global warming is an theory is has NOT been proven! Coal burning causes more deaths every year than Nuclear, PROVEN!

I think in the future there will be a few different technologies to chose as a power source in cars which is a good thing because electricity will always be cheap, 12 Euros to drive 600 miles on electricity. 80 Euros to drive the same in my Diesel A4, yeah I'm all for that! Hydrogen will always be more expensive because the Government will tax it as much as petrol or diesel!

We should march against fuel tax and carbon tax it Pisses me off that for every tank of diesel 70% goes to the damn Government! The Government say oil is expensive and that's why the prices go up so much at the pumps. Do they think we are fools? oil is cheap and only for the tax we wouldn't even be talking about alternative fuelled vehicles!!!!!

Sorry about the long post folks, if you did read this far fair play! I could talk all day about this stuff!

have a good Day!

Bruthal

Deleted User wrote: »

Hi Everyone.
I wouldn't worry too much about longevity of the battery in the Leaf, once it's kept charged to between 20-90 % most of the time it will last well over 150000 miles. Frequent charges are better than totally emptying the battery! Even though they have a calender life I would still expect it to last 8 years possibly 10!

Well it will last, its the performance that may reduce, lithium based batteries do reduce in capacity and performance over charge cycles, as does any rechargeable chemistry. I use a lot of lithium based rechargeable batteries myself in model aircraft. Keeping them fully charged and warm are 2 things that reduce their charge capacity over time. Also faster charging reduces it.

Notebooks is a good example, they have 2 main problems that cause their batteries to deteriorate quickly enough. They are always fully charged, and always warm or hot from the heat of the notebook itself. And their batteries do reduce to no capacity in a couple of years. The Leaf should be better than this as the batteries shouldnt get overly warm or be constantly fully charged so that will be better for them. But how the performance of the batteries stands up only time will tell for sure.

Lithium batteries need to be depleted no more than 80%, so the empty battery level on any indacator in the car would be when the actual battery charge state is 20% most likely, as any items using lithium ion or polymer batteries have cut off circuitry to prevent over discharging which is why lithium powered drills etc suddenly stop rather than gradually the way nimh tools do. This would be the final cut off point in something like a car probably, with warnings before this stage is reached.

Bruthal

Confab wrote: »

I've seen one in Ballsbridge. I laughed.

Progress can be funny alright.

seamus

A week or two back I do remember hearing a car go past that didn't sound like a car, more like a golf buggy. Didn't twig at the time, but it could have been one of these, I didn't take a proper look - looked like a smallish hatchback.

Heroditas

seamus wrote: »

A week or two back I do remember hearing a car go past that didn't sound like a car, more like a golf buggy.

Were you on the golf course by any chance?

Ghost Estate

I dunno why anyone would be stuck to a monthly payment for a battery.


You might as well be filling the car with petrol. also if there was no option to buy the battery outright i'd never get a car like that. They can discontinue and reposess your type of battery just when they decide it's time for you to buy a new car

robbie7730

robbie7730 wrote: »

Well it will last, its the performance that may reduce, lithium based batteries do reduce in capacity and performance over charge cycles, as does any rechargeable chemistry. I use a lot of lithium based rechargeable batteries myself in model aircraft. Keeping them fully charged and warm are 2 things that reduce their charge capacity over time. Also faster charging reduces it.

Hi robbie,
Even when compared to the LiPo you probably use in your model aircraft. The LiMn2O4 battery used in the Leaf and Volt does not reduce in performance over cycling, only capacity. And as I say that isn't a worry in the volt because they only use 50% of the battery anyway and they have coolant to cool and heat the battery, which the leaf does not. Though in a cool Irish climate that might not matter so much, only time will tell for sure.

By the way, if you haven't already you should check out the nanotech LiPo batteries on hobbyking for your plane, they offer absolutely crazy discharge rates, up to 100 C :eek: check out endless-sphere forums too, endless info there on batteries.

I use a LiFePo4 battery on my Electric Bike project, I can get 24mph for 25-35 miles full throttle and it should last for 1500+ cycles that's 30000 miles or more all from a 52 volt 20 amp battery! I don't often fully discharge it!

I'm too scared to get into LiPo as I like to be able to charge in the house without the risk of fire lol I know LiPo is much safer these days, but you can't get a fully assembled 52 volt 20 amp for under 1500 Euros, and the only option really is to use a few RC LiPo's but it's a lot of hassel to connect them for E-Bike use. 3-500 cycles Lipo V 1000 for LifePo4 but that can be increased a lot as you say by not using 100% of the battery for LiPo. I would love the discharge rates of LiPo though and the weight reduction. My 52 volt 20 amp LiFePo4 weigh 9.9 Kgs compared to 5.5 what LiPo would be!

robbie7730 wrote: »

Notebooks is a good example, they have 2 main problems that cause their batteries to deteriorate quickly enough. They are always fully charged, and always warm or hot from the heat of the notebook itself. And their batteries do reduce to no capacity in a couple of years. The Leaf should be better than this as the batteries shouldnt get overly warm or be constantly fully charged so that will be better for them. But how the performance of the batteries stands up only time will tell for sure.

Agreed, though people should stop thinking about laptop batteries which are far inferior to the leaf, volt, or fluence battery. And they have full power right through the life of the battery. It's a shame renault decided to offer a pitiful 15000 km lease on their fluence battery. That might be the average mileage in France, but they obviously didn't do their research on Ireland who drive more than any other European country!

robbie7730 wrote: »

Lithium batteries need to be depleted no more than 80%, so the empty battery level on any indacator in the car would be when the actual battery charge state is 20% most likely, as any items using lithium ion or polymer batteries have cut off circuitry to prevent over discharging which is why lithium powered drills etc suddenly stop rather than gradually the way nimh tools do. This would be the final cut off point in something like a car probably, with warnings before this stage is reached.

I'm sure most E.V's will not use 100% of their batteries.

But I sure can't wait to drive an electric car. Instant torque is addictive I Get suck a buzz on my bike, I just can't wait to get out on it!

paddy1976

Ghost Estate wrote: »

They were supposed to be released this month, I havn't seen any yet though. Not my type of car but it would be interesting to see if they are selling well

Leaf is released March 1st, officially, there are a few touring dealerships at the moment

ironclaw

Saw one in Winsor motors in Deansgrange. Also see a good few of the ESB Mitsubishi's.

Bruthal

Deleted User wrote: »

Hi robbie,
Even when compared to the LiPo you probably use in your model aircraft. The LiMn2O4 battery used in the Leaf and Volt does not reduce in performance over cycling, only capacity. And as I say that isn't a worry in the volt because they only use 50% of the battery anyway and they have coolant to cool and heat the battery, which the leaf does not. Though in a cool Irish climate that might not matter so much, only time will tell for sure.

Its not the voltage that reduces in the lipo batteries either, its the capacity, and the max c rating reduces. Voltage only reduces under loading, and how much it reduces by increases as the capacity reduces. Only time will tell.

I'm too scared to get into LiPo as I like to be able to charge in the house without the risk of fire lol I know LiPo is much safer these days, but you can't get a fully assembled 52 volt 20 amp for under 1500 Euros, and the only option really is to use a few RC LiPo's but it's a lot of hassel to connect them for E-Bike use. 3-500 cycles Lipo V 1000 for LifePo4 but that can be increased a lot as you say by not using 100% of the battery for LiPo. I would love the discharge rates of LiPo though and the weight reduction. My 52 volt 20 amp LiFePo4 weigh 9.9 Kgs compared to 5.5 what LiPo would be!

Any high performance battery charging and storage has some risk. High energy density batteries that can release the stored energy rapidly, (far faster then c ratings) will have some risks when charging/storing. Probalby minimal when looked after properly though.

Agreed, though people should stop thinking about laptop batteries which are far inferior to the leaf, volt, or fluence battery. And they have full power right through the life of the battery.

Maybe they do. But batteries have to deteriorate sometime. Interesting though.

Bruthal

Deleted User wrote: »

I use a LiFePo4 battery on my Electric Bike project, I can get 24mph for 25-35 miles full throttle and it should last for 1500+ cycles that's 30000 miles or more all from a 52 volt 20 amp battery! I don't often fully discharge it!

I would love the discharge rates of LiPo though and the weight reduction. My 52 volt 20 amp LiFePo4 weigh 9.9 Kgs compared to 5.5 what LiPo would be!

Its around a 1kw motor in the bike so? When you say a 20 amp battery, you mean 20 amp load, or 20 amp hour.

Whats the capacity of it. 24mph for 24 miles would be an hour, so 20,000mah and maybe divide by 0.8 for discharge to 20% would be roughly 25 amp hour or 25,000mah?

robbie7730

robbie7730 wrote: »

Its around a 1kw motor in the bike so? When you say a 20 amp battery, you mean 20 amp load, or 20 amp hour.

Whats the capacity of it. 24mph for 24 miles would be an hour, so 20,000mah and maybe divide by 0.8 for discharge to 20% would be roughly 25 amp hour or 25,000mah?

Well it is rated for 1kw, but there is usually a much higher limit to what motors can handle, sometimes in current or voltage, on take off and climbing steep hills it can pull 40 amps, or 15-18 amps on the flats once up to speed. It is very efficient at 48-52 volts.

The motor is wired for torque rather than speed, if I ran 72 volts through it I would probably reach 35 mph and still have bags of torque. but trust me 24 mph is fast on a bicycle!

Other motors such as geared motors are more efficient again and smaller, but they can have problems with the gears. And they can't do regen braking, not that you put much back in the battery, but it makes for some fantastic stopping power!

The battery has a capacity of 20 amp hours, the battery is rated for a max discharge of 3C or 60 amps, but that's a killer on it, that's why I have a 40 amp controller. it's handy to have the poke available for climbing and acceleration.

You can get motors wired for higher speed and less torque, but they would draw more amps at speed.

Normally voltage gives you speed and current amps, but higher voltage also gives you some extra torque and range!

I had it at 60 amps and the acceleration was nuts altogether, I got scared when I couldn't keep the fromt wheel on the ground, It kept wanting to do wheelies! lol

You would be surprised how far an hour or an hour and a half gets you, especially when terrain varies so much. But the trick is to buy the most efficient motor for the voltage you will be running!

Bruthal

Deleted User wrote: »

You can get motors wired for higher speed and less torque, but they would draw more amps at speed.

Less pairs of poles will give more speed and less torque. What sort of motor is it?

Bruthal

Deleted User wrote: »

Well it is rated for 1kw, but there is usually a much higher limit to what motors can handle, sometimes in current or voltage, on take off and climbing steep hills it can pull 40 amps, or 15-18 amps on the flats once up to speed. It is very efficient at 48-52 volts.

The t-rex 600 i fly sometimes, (rc chopper) outputs about a kw when just hovering. Some power in it.

robbie7730

robbie7730 wrote: »

Less pairs of poles will give more speed and less torque. What sort of motor is it?

It's a hub motor built into the wheel. It's a golden motor magic pie, external controller option. I use an infineon 40 amp controller.

Some people use R.C motors to drive the chain which can be efficient because you can use the bikes gears, but they are noisy and can chew derialleurs and sprockets

The batteries make such a difference, and at the rate batteries are changing, in around 5 years or less I will be able to buy a battery half the size!

Bruthal

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a hub motor built into the wheel. It's a golden motor magic pie, external controller option. I use an infineon 40 amp controller.

Some people use R.C motors to drive the chain which can be efficient because you can use the bikes gears, but they are noisy and can chew derialleurs and sprockets

The batteries make such a difference, and at the rate batteries are changing, in around 5 years or less I will be able to buy a battery half the size!

Yes even the batteries today are great, here is my youtube channel with the electric rc stuff on it. The t-rex 600 has a 5 amp hour 24 volt battery in it. Just click "see all" under the 3 thumbnails on the left. List there of videos.

robbie7730

robbie7730 wrote: »

Yes even the batteries today are great, here is my youtube channel with the electric rc stuff on it. The t-rex 600 has a 5 amp hour 24 volt battery in it. Just click "see all" under the 3 thumbnails on the left. List there of videos.

That's cool stuff!!! I thought the plane vid was really cool, I liked it gliding b ack down. How high up did it go?

Those batteries have some cool specs too!

Isn't it a pity hobbies are expensive?

voteforpedro

Saw a transporter full of them yesterday on Mespil road. not as bad looking as i had hoped:D