Piezo systems and Sustainer circuits. Any help here appreciated.

Karl Hungus

These little peices of tech have really peaked my intrest while I was browsing a few custom shops, mainly LGM and Conklin, which both offer Piezo systems. MIDI pickups have always been intresting to me, and I've quite a lot of software here on the computer, not just for recording, but all manner of guitar synths and the like.

What really interested me is the fact that Piezo pickups are placed in the string saddles, and not where normal pickups usually are. So perhaps I'm completely wrong about this, but the idea I get is that a guitar could have a set of Piezo MIDI pickups and still be completely backwards compatible with passive pickups and regular jack inputs. Now that, to be completely honest, is very cool indeed!

Now, does anyone here have any experience with Piezos, or could verify my assumption on the backwards compatibility?

As for the sustainer circuits, I was looking at the Fernades website, and reading up on their sustainer systems, which makes the strings vibrate using a magnetic field, which increases the overall sustain a hell of a lot, or as the website claims, indefinetly. Not only that but it can apparently produce harmony signals an octave higher, which also, is very cool indeed.

Again, if anyone has any experience with the sustainers, I'd love to know what your thoughts on them are, as it seems very interesting altogether.

Are both these systems and a set of 2 pickups physically possible in a single guitar? I understand that the sustainer would need batteries, but the Piezo is a little blurry on the subject according to the graphtech site, it doesn't look like it, but I might aswell ask would there be room for batteries for both? There's also the notion that there'd be an enourmous amount of knobs and switches on the face of the guitar, but might there realistically be too many?

I understand that these might be rather stupid questions to some people, but I don't like to presume too much and I really want to ask about things if I'm at all foggy on the subject. No point in investing in something you don't understand properly, and when looking to buy a new guitar, it's always good to look at the options available to you. So, anyone with any help on this matter, thanks greatly in advance.

Now, the most important, most pertinent, most crucial question of all...
Are these systems any good whatsoever!?


Edit:
Oh, just to be clear, I did factor in that a sustainer system would require another pickup-esque "Driver" but that it's a possibility of getting a single coil sized one in middle possition akin to some Ibanez guitars.

Eoin Madsen

Piezo pickups seem to be getting quite common in electric guitars, but often you have to replace the bridge to put one in (some of them seem to be built into strat or tele style bridges). Most acoustic guitar pickups are piezo. A piezo pickup is not necessarily a MIDI pickup, so be careful of the distinction. I've never come across a piezo that didn't need a 9v battery.

The sustainer looks very interesting, I haven't come across one before. Not unlike an ebow in principle, but probably a lot easier to use. You might have to do a bit of digging to get it in though, there's a PCB as well as a battery. It wouldn't fit in my guitar.

Regarding jack outputs and "backward compatibility" (I presume you mean being able to just use the standard pickups instead), it's all a matter of how you wire it! You can have a mixing switch or switches, stereo jack, two or more mono jacks etc.

feylya

Piezo Basically something that's placed in the saddles on a guitar (or under them) which then acts as an acoustic pickup (ie, makes basically the same sound as an acoustic guitar would with a pickup). The piezo works by translating pressure and vibrations into electric current. It's actually reasonably easily to make on but that's for another time. These cannot be used as a midi pickup.

MIDI This is a completely different system to magnetic and piezo pickups. A midi pickup is mounted on a guitar, generally right at the bridge. When a note is played, the pickup translates the note into an electronic signal which is sent into a midi processor. The processor then takes the electronic signal and creates the same note but in a different instrument as programmed on the processor (ie piano, sax, monkey)

Sustainer The sustainer is basically controlled feedback. When a note is played, the individual pole piece in the bridge pickup detects what string is being played and starts sending a magnetic field out of the Sustainer unit (which is in the neck postion) so the string keeps going. In order to use this system and keep a neck pickup, the guitar must be routed for a humbucker in the neck but a single coil or stacked humbucker must be used.

If you want to actually see and hear some of these technologies being used, I recommend Dream Theater (The Silent Man) for piezo, Muse and Steve Vai for Sustainers and I believe Shawn Lane used Midi quite a lot towards the end.

Karl Hungus

I'm not mixing up Piezo and MIDI, but just going from information I've found on the graphtech website, check out the details of the Ghost Piezo System, and you'll see what I'm getting at:

Not only can your electric guitar sound like an acoustic, it can sound like anything you want! Using the Hexpander you can now connect via 13 pin to the Roland virtual instruments and MIDI controllers.

Maybe my info was a little biased towards one particular system there, so that's basically what I'm refering to Feylya. I'll take it that most Piezo systems aren't compatible with MIDI, and that the Graphtech Ghost system is particularly unique in that respect? Excellent!

And yes Eoin, that's pretty much what I meant, but also if it were possible for 2 outputs on a guitar, the jack and 13-pin MIDI for each seperate system? Still quite foggy on how this'll work altogether.

Thanks for the responses so far people.

feylya

Actually for a guitar with magnetic, piezo and MIDI, there's three outputs. Normal magnetic to normal guitar stuff, piezo (looks the same as the normal jack) to PA and the 13pin midi system to processors.

http://www.godinguitars.com/sa.jpg <-- Like that!

And that Ghost system is referring to the fact that you can connect a MIDI pickup to the electronics for the piezo and output them seperately. Might be wrong though.

Karl Hungus

Well, the diagram on the graphtech site indicates that it's like this: piezo pickups - onboard preamp - midi output.
No seperate MIDI pickups needed.

And that is fairly cool on that guitar with the 3 outputs!

feylya

Next time you're in Dublin, check out the set up they have in Music Maker. They have that guitar with all the outputs connected up Loads of fun.

Hmmm, reading up on that seems as if you can take the midi from the saddles. Can't see anything about the seperate piezo output. Wouldn't mind messing around with one of those. Shame they don't do them for Floyd Roses

Doctor J

Piezo saddles on a Floyd or any trem might be an issue because they work by sensing the vibration of the string. I imagine an unpleasant sound would be the result of the vibrations which go through a Floyd when whammy'd - ie arm movement, spring movement etc...

feylya

Ibanez Double Edge Pro...

Karl Hungus

Unfortunatly, I can't hop up and down to music maker as often as I like. I think I might be going in a few weeks, but I don't know anything certain. They really should open up a branch here in Galway, the amount of money they'd rake in would be phenominal, and they'd blow away the competition!

The Ghost system looks like it could be very, very cool indeed. Might be worth an investment when I'm ordering the new guitar, do you think?

Karl Hungus

Doctor J wrote:

Piezo saddles on a Floyd or any trem might be an issue because they work by sensing the vibration of the string. I imagine an unpleasant sound would be the result of the vibrations which go through a Floyd when whammy'd - ie arm movement, spring movement etc...

From the graphtech website:

Pickup sensitivity is not affected by variations in string pressure - use your tremolo on acoustic settings without losing contact.

...god, I sound like a spokesperson. :eek:

Doctor J

Get a Variax, run it into midi and use a pitch bend wheel to digitally emulate tremolo

feylya

Karl Hungus wrote:

Might be worth an investment when I'm ordering the new guitar, do you think?

Not really. At least not until you try one. Don't forget you'll need a seperate amp for the piezo and a processor and amp for the midi.

Doctor J

feylya wrote:

a processor and amp for the midi.

A sampler or a laptop? rock n roll!

feylya

TBH, a laptop will cost as much and you'd have to get an interface into it. Still have to get an amp too...

Karl Hungus

feylya wrote:

Don't forget you'll need a seperate amp for the piezo and a processor and amp for the midi.

Naw, I'm thinking that I'll be running the midi through the computer like I mentioned in the first post. I'm thinking most of the Ghost system will be used for recording.

Doctor J

TBH, it's just a lot easier to use a keyboard for midi, it's much less prone to errors reading notes and any pitch changes in the guitar (eg, going a teeny bit out of tune), the whole guitar midi thing just seem to be more hassle than it's worth.

Karl Hungus

Damn, seems I'm not keeping up with the thread!

Yes DocJ, a laptop would be equally as cool!

feylya

You may well be better off just getting a midi keyboard in that case. Cheaper and easier.

Man, these threads are going fvcking fast Cool.

Doctor J

Actuallly, Oeneus seems to be from the whole piano and therefore possiblt midi side of things, he might have a bit more of an authoritative take on this type of thing. See if you can get him to come in from outside

Karl Hungus

Doctor J wrote:

TBH, it's just a lot easier to use a keyboard for midi, it's much less prone to errors reading notes and any pitch changes in the guitar (eg, going a teeny bit out of tune), the whole guitar midi thing just seem to be more hassle than it's worth.

Actually, I do own a keyboard, and plan to learn to use it better in future. D'oh!

Maybe I'm getting a little phased by having a lot of tech in one instrument. Still, with that said, the notions of getting acoustic sounds from the guitar would be excellent and still very appealing. Besides, I don't think you'd ever find an 8-string acoustic, so maybe the Ghost system is worth it simply for its acoustic qualities?

feylya

LGM would probably build you one...

Karl Hungus

feylya wrote:

LGM would probably build you one...

Yeah, but that would be more mega-bucks! I'm already talking about getting this Leviathan 6-string fretless bass, another guitar ontop of that would be overkill! Besides, Jeremy offers the Ghost system for the guitars anyway.

feylya

How much is he charging for it? It's not much more than a gadget at this stage for the music you seem to play.

Karl Hungus

For the bass or the piezo? He said the bass is about the same as the 8-string, but depends on options. No price for the ghost system, just says "Inquire" on it.

And the piezo wouldn't really be a gadget as such. Consider how much acoustic is used in a lot of the music I like, such as Opeth and the like. It's just unfortunate I've no acoustic at all, otherwise I'm sure I'd use it plenty.

Karl Hungus

Could always get a nice Takamine at some stage in the future too though?

feylya

I was referring to the Midi rather than the piezo. I'd love a piezo equiped guitar.

Doctor J

Aren't there pedals which emulate an acoustic sound on an electric?

feylya

And they sound terrible.

TBH, you could do this. Buy a second hand Squire in decent enough condition. Fill it in with a nice piece of alder or other hardwood. Get an acoustic bridge. Install. Route from the back. Install volume knob somewhere that can't be seen. Install input jack in the side. You know have a nice electric guitar that sounds like an acoustic for maybe €300.

Or look at thomann

*wanders off.

Karl Hungus

Yeah, but they're not great as far as I've heard, DocJ...

Fair enough Fey, the midi itself might be rather 'Gadget-esque' perhaps, but it's only an aditional output for the ghost system, so even if I never used it, could be handy in future experimentation?

feylya

Ya ****ing know what? Harley Benton used to make a two voice guitar. Think I can find the fecker? HAHAHA, no.

Karl Hungus

feylya wrote:

TBH, you could do this. Buy a second hand Squire in decent enough condition. Fill it in with a nice piece of alder or other hardwood. Get an acoustic bridge. Install. Route from the back. Install volume knob somewhere that can't be seen. Install input jack in the side. You know have a nice electric guitar that sounds like an acoustic for maybe €300.

Ah, but my rationalization here being that having the 1 guitar that does both things is better than 2 seperate guitars that do their own thing. Unless of course I was to buy an actual acoustic, which would probably do the job a lot better.

Doctor J

Meh, I'm sure Line 6 will magic one up soon if they haven't already. I've heard the Boss one, twas warm poo indeed, but in these days of digital modelling, COSM and the like, it shouldn't be long until a decent one shows up. After all, a piezo pickup is just changing the vibrating string signal into an electrical signal in a different way to a regular magnetic pickup. It's still the same vibrating string.

Doctor J

Karl Hungus wrote:

Unless of course I was to buy an actual acoustic, which would probably do the job a lot better.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner

Why not ust get the real thing, rather than something that's just pretending to be the real thing?

feylya

Typical. I go looking for it and they don't have them anymore.

Tbh, stick the acousto-electric thing in a stand and swap between them.

Effects are nice but no modelling can get a perfect replica.

Eoin Madsen

feylya wrote:

Effects are nice but no modelling can get a perfect replica.

It won't be long before the output of a modelling guitar is closer to the actual sound of an acoustic than the output of a piezo pickup or even an internal mic pickup is.

The Fishman Aura was a step in this direction, though I have to say I was not too impressed with it when I used it.

Karl Hungus

Doctor J wrote:

Ding ding ding, we have a winner

Why not ust get the real thing, rather than something that's just pretending to be the real thing?

Yes yes, very clever...

Seriously, it's the notion of switching to an acoustic setting in a live situation without changing guitars that's interesting.

Blah, maybe for the 8-string the 2 Duncans, volume, tone, switch, and one output will be fine, and a seperate acoustic would be grand. So, what's peoples thoughts on Takamine guitars?

feylya

I'm a fan of Ovations tbh.

Karl Hungus

So you think I should keep the 8-string fairly simple also?

feylya

Isn't that an oxymoron? A simple 8 string?

Yes, simple is good. You should be too busy trying to play the thing that flick switchs. 2 pickups, vol, vol, tone, 3 or 5 way switch. Fixed bridge. 24-29 frets.