NCPII Hornet's nest

PepePareja

I know that I’m disturbing a hornet’s nest here, but I feel that there are unanswered questions remaining with regards to the NCPII and ACPC. I have carefully watched the threads here with regards to the (long time) forthcoming statutory registration of counsellors & psychotherapists. I know that the subject has been tackled before, but never quite resolved.

I also know that the legitimacy of an individual’s comments are often questioned if they don’t have a high post count, so to counter that argument; I want to state initially that I have no vested interests in the area of counselling or psychotherapy (C&P), other than the fact that I am giving some consideration to the profession, having completed my primary degree in psychology. I am in the process of becoming a graduate member of the PSI, purely as a consequence of the fact that my B.Sc. is accredited by the PSI and it is the well respected professional representative body of the field in which I have studied. Other than that I hold no particular loyalties to any organisation or body.

So, having looked at the various routes into counselling & psychotherapy, I was, to be quite honest, very attracted to the NCPII Masters in C&P for the following reasons.
1) At one year full time, it is a very fast route compared to others*.
2) At €5,500 it is cost effective.
3) The HSE and VHI have ‘pinned their flags to the mast’ in associating themselves with the NCPII (Despite any arguments to the contrary).
4) ‘The award is validated by HETAC, the Higher Education and Training Awards Council, which itself falls within the remit of the Department of Education. The degrees are on the National Framework of Qualifications and hold exactly the same currency as degrees from the Institutes of Technology or Universities.’ – taken from the NCPII website.

It sounds like an obvious and easy choice to make. Why pay more money and spend 3 years longer studying elsewhere, with the same outcome?* – After all, according to the NCPII website, once you have qualified and have completed 450 hours of supervised work experience you can legally practise as a counsellor/psychotherapist. However, here is the crucial part. RIGHT NOW, while the area is unregulated, anyone can call themselves a counsellor. So, to be blunt about it – you don’t even need to do the one year NCPII masters. It seems that you can just put up a brass plate and off you go.
*( I’m aware of the benefits to studying 3 years longer elsewhere – my point is that a 1 years HETAC validated Masters in C&P is technically possible)

I also see that the proposed registration suggests that a psychotherapist must complete ‘A minimum of four years of training in specific psychotherapy modality at masters level (1,400) hours'* That being the case, the NCPII masters will clearly fall short of the proposals in the submission – by several years. So, what if an individual were to throw caution to the wind, do the masters and hope that they can become registered via the grandparenting criteria for practising psychotherapists? Well, according to those criteria, the masters would be fine. However, the psychotherapist must have carried out supervised client work ‘over a minimum of five years’* – taken from the submission put to government.
So, you could do the masters, followed by 450 hours supervision, go into practise and hope that the registration is delayed by another 4 years. Also, the professional membership body (The APCP is associated with the NCPII this case) must be in existence for a min. of 4 years. I don’t know how long the APCP is in existence – Is it 4 years yet?

I would very much like to know the general consensus on these points. From what I can see, the NCPII is, as things stand, a perfectly valid route into C&P. However, should the proposals (and they are proposals) in the submission be implemented – wouldn’t that mean that those who think they can be in C&P in a year via the NCPII route are roughly 3-4 years short of their perceived time frame?

Sorry for the long post, but it's an important issue for anyone considering the next step in their career.

JuliusCaesar

It might help if you read the thread on Statutory Registration. - (edit - I see you did!) The proposal that was put forward by the forum of counselling and psychotherapy bodies is just that - but it was made up of a number of well-established and respected counselling bodies.

What does it mean that HSE South West and VHI have "pinned their flags to the mast"? I'd look for clarification from those bodies, actually. I *think* that they have funded an employee to undertake a course there - but maybe it means more.

Yes, HETAC accredited - but you'd have to wonder about HETAC. You would think that HETAC would ensure that 3rd level qualifications are more-or-less equal, but in fact when you look carefully, they seem to be setting up a 2-level system, where a qualification from a university is actually worth more than a HETAC one, although both students end up with the same letters after their name, despite HETAC's claim. It's very puzzling.

And how well established is the APCP? It must surely be the baby of the rest which have all been established a long time. The fact that they had to be told to separate the college from the APCP seems strange to me. Surely any dog in the street would have told them that awarding your own qualification and then accrediting it yourself too veers on the dodgy?

PepePareja

Thanks very much for the reply. I value the opinion of others regarding this matter.

Just to be clear again, before I continue - I'm not here to defend or promote the NCPII, I'm a confused graduate trying to understand why there seem to be so much discussion and apparent controversy with regards the NCPII. I don't want to waste either my time or money going down a cul de sac with regards to my future studies.

I've looked around the NCPII website and there is a video, on which HSE representative (Rory Keane) talks about how they collaborated with the NCPII in the development of some of the course content. Doing a quick Google search on his name shows that he is a coordinator for drugs and alcohol services in Limerick. He says that the HSE were also involved in some of the accreditation process with HETAC. I have always believed that HETAC were a perfectly legitimate organisation and I have never doubted any of their awards. The suggestion that they are operating a two level system is disconcerting to say the least and it adds yet another level of confusion to this whole matter.

As regards the VHI, the fact that the VHI have offered scholarships to study with the NCPII indicated to me that they have placed some faith in the standards achieved there. Otherwise, I would imagine that they wouldn't spend their money in such a way.

To be honest, my main concern at present with the NCPII is that they seem to be either
A) Too busy to answer my query
Unwilling to answer my query
C) Unable to answer my query - which I put to them in several emails and phones calls over a period of the last two weeks. Whether the reason for the lack of reply is A, B, or C, it is not inspiring me with confidence.

This is the reason why I turned to this forum, to see if anyone else can allay my fears. If the NCPII have a representative who reads these threads, perhaps they can offer an input.

Thank you.

JuliusCaesar

PepePareja wrote: »

I have always believed that HETAC were a perfectly legitimate organisation and I have never doubted any of their awards. The suggestion that they are operating a two level system is disconcerting to say the least and it adds yet another level of confusion to this whole matter.

I don't think that they are deliberately operating a 2-level system! I just think that they need perhaps do more research before accrediting a course *IF* that course is of a markedly different standard to those offered in a university.

For example, and not to disrespect HETAC, but there could have been more relevant experts on their accreditation committee. The panel of experts contains geographers, biochemists, a business person, and someone (the foreign expert) who works abroad with the Dean of NCPII, and was this connection known to the wider committee I wonder.

If you do a search on the forum, you'll find that someone from NCII as it was then, did post here a few times.

HiHopes

Yikes Julius.! Methinks you should get your facts right before posting! Whoever sat on accreditation committee I'm guessing was in a better position to make an evaluation than your good self.

Your negativity is quite blatent and profound. Wonder what your issue is ?

bureau2009

And out of interest, what is the standing of the IACP - Irish Association of Counselling & Psychotherapy? I know they have been around a long time and that a degree isn't essential for accreditation. Any information anyone?

HiHopes

IACP are going about 15 or 20 years. They came into being in an effort to provide some form of regulation and protection for the consumer, while furthering the field. They have done a lot to turn counselling into a profession in Ireland; they publish a quarterly journal, Eisteach.

Some people find the accreditation process with IACP cumbersome, as there is a requirement for a lot of personal development, which in this authors opinion is a very necessary and essential part of counsellor training.

APCP are in existence for about two years and doesn't, as yet, put this same emphasis on personal development. This may change.

Counselling in Ireland is still a relatively new profession. In my opinion, anybody who is seriously interested in this area would best be spending their time and precious energy asking questions like: Why is our suicide rate so high ? What counselling services are being provided to people in need ? What has happened to the da**ing report made by Amnesty International about Mental Health in Ireland.

Instead of splitting hairs between IACP and APCP.

Just an opinion

PepePareja

HiHopes wrote: »

IACP are going about 15 or 20 years. They came into being in an effort to provide some form of regulation and protection for the consumer, while furthering the field. They have done a lot to turn counselling into a profession in Ireland; they publish a quarterly journal, Eisteach.

Some people find the accreditation process with IACP cumbersome, as there is a requirement for a lot of personal development, which in this authors opinion is a very necessary and essential part of counsellor training.

APCP are in existence for about two years and doesn't, as yet, put this same emphasis on personal development. This may change.

Counselling in Ireland is still a relatively new profession. In my opinion, anybody who is seriously interested in this area would best be spending their time and precious energy asking questions like: Why is our suicide rate so high ? What counselling services are being provided to people in need ? What has happened to the da**ing report made by Amnesty International about Mental Health in Ireland.

Instead of splitting hairs between IACP and APCP.

Just an opinion

Your questions are very important ones for the field of mental health in general and yes, they should be considered by anyone working, or contemplating working in the field.

That said, and with all due respect, it is more than a matter of splitting hairs over the IACP and APCP when you are making a career defining decision.

My conclusion as to which organisation is more professional than the other has been made for me - not because of the comments & opinions on the psychology forum, but due to the inability of the APCP to offer answers in response to direct questions posed by me via email and telephone.

I highly recommend that anyone else considering the NCPII masters should contact them directly to see if they can get answers regarding the eligibility of prospective graduate students for statutory registration. The FAQ section on their website is lacking in clarity on the matter. I for one will not be wasting any more time chasing them for answers.

Odysseus

HiHopes wrote: »

IACP are going about 15 or 20 years. They came into being in an effort to provide some form of regulation and protection for the consumer, while furthering the field. They have done a lot to turn counselling into a profession in Ireland; they publish a quarterly journal, Eisteach.

Some people find the accreditation process with IACP cumbersome, as there is a requirement for a lot of personal development, which in this authors opinion is a very necessary and essential part of counsellor training.

APCP are in existence for about two years and doesn't, as yet, put this same emphasis on personal development. This may change.

Counselling in Ireland is still a relatively new profession. In my opinion, anybody who is seriously interested in this area would best be spending their time and precious energy asking questions like: Why is our suicide rate so high ? What counselling services are being provided to people in need ? What has happened to the da**ing report made by Amnesty International about Mental Health in Ireland.

Instead of splitting hairs between IACP and APCP.

Just an opinion

Whilst they [IACP] place a strong emphasis on personal therapy which is fundamental in my opinion, other bodies require even more. I would have thought they are around longer than that, APPI is over 20 years old and the IAAAC are even older.

However, membership entry requirements have change a lot, I became a full member of IAAAC in 2000, and had to hand in a fair amount of paper -work, supervisors reports and the like it is nothing compared to trying to become a member now.

A mate of my can remember becoming a full member by just ringing up and asking to join:eek: I don't know about counselling in general but psychoanalysis came to Ireland in the late 20s early 30s. I would have to check up to get an exact time period.

I think your questions are significant ones, but the thing is some bold statements are often about this new body, by people with low post counts. That will always raise an eye-brow; especially as people come here to seek advice about professional bodies.

This is an important area for those seeking to train as membership of a professional body or the ability to become one is fundament is you want to work outside of private practice; especially if you want to work in an organisation like the HSE.

JuliusCaesar

HiHopes wrote: »

Yikes Julius.! Methinks you should get your facts right before posting! Whoever sat on accreditation committee I'm guessing was in a better position to make an evaluation than your good self.

Your negativity is quite blatent and profound. Wonder what your issue is ?

as HiHopes seems to have registered to make this post, can I ask HiHopes if he/she is connected in any way with the college or organisation under discussion?

Odysseus

bureau2009 wrote: »

And out of interest, what is the standing of the IACP - Irish Association of Counselling & Psychotherapy? I know they have been around a long time and that a degree isn't essential for accreditation. Any information anyone?

You are correct on an educational level. You can join with a recognised Dip. However, there is more to it than that, there are personal therapy and clinical supervision requirements that need to be fulfilled too. Like some other bodies they now have levels of membership for example some people would be pre-accreditated members; which means the have fulfilled some of the requirements, enough to practice under supervision but they are not full members.

If you are looking at working in this area take your time about exploring what training you do and what body it entitled you to apply for membership to. People here are members of various bodies and someone will always be willing to answer questions about becoming a member.

Personally I will not refer a client to another therapist who is not at masters level, but that is just me and my viewpoint. Hope that helps a bit.

JuliusCaesar

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

as HiHopes seems to have registered to make this post, can I ask HiHopes if he/she is connected in any way with the college or organisation under discussion?

It seems to me that anytime there is a discussion which is critical of NCII, someone from there or with a vested interest registers in order to defend the college. Look, HiHopes and your pals (or maybe it's just you), I will be checking now and in the future. Anymore of this and you'll get a permanent ban.

iPink

HiHopes wrote: »

IACP are going about 15 or 20 years. They came into being in an effort to provide some form of regulation and protection for the consumer, while furthering the field. They have done a lot to turn counselling into a profession in Ireland; they publish a quarterly journal, Eisteach.

Some people find the accreditation process with IACP cumbersome, as there is a requirement for a lot of personal development, which in this authors opinion is a very necessary and essential part of counsellor training.

APCP are in existence for about two years and doesn't, as yet, put this same emphasis on personal development. This may change.

Counselling in Ireland is still a relatively new profession. In my opinion, anybody who is seriously interested in this area would best be spending their time and precious energy asking questions like: Why is our suicide rate so high ? What counselling services are being provided to people in need ? What has happened to the da**ing report made by Amnesty International about Mental Health in Ireland.

Instead of splitting hairs between IACP and APCP.

Just an opinion

As a recent Graduate of the NCPII (I'll state that right off so as not to muddy the water!!) I wonder why the IACP recognise the qualification recieved by students of the BACP as valid and worthy for accrediation even though there is no requirement of a certain number of personal counselling as mandatory for graduation...
This is (apparantly) the main reason the IACP give for not accrediating NCPII students... even though we did complete a full, entire year of hard-going Personal Development in a group setting very early on as part of the 4 year Degree programme.
As a recent graduate it is extremely frustrating to be told that the 4 years of HARD WORK- study, assignments, essays, exams, work experience, group work etc is next to useless just because a certain body is a little afraid of some healthy competition (so it would seem!)
As a student is was almost soul destroying- trying to find a Supervisor for mandatory 110 Clinical Hours out of a very small group of registered Supervisors (in the South East), the vast majority of which is IACP registered and had been (allegedly) warned not to take on any NCPII students by the IACP...
Who is to say that my degree is any less valid than another's just because the letters are different after it (all passed by HETAC I may add!) or that my practice would be any less helpful because of that... ???

phelo2121

hi all i was also intrigued by the ncpii ma in c&p so i went to an information night tuesday and have to say they convinced me even more until i got home and researched the accreditation etc and came across the submission of guidelines for regulation (which the ncpii meets none of)and other sites which give info around what a c&p course should include and guidelines they should met and have to say the ncpii fall short everywhere ,being linked to the accrediting body, accepting leaving cert students so that if a student went straight from school and did the ba they would be qualified by 21which is obviously not a good idea, no personal therapy required during course, and at the information night we were told that there was absolutely no hidden costs and the fee for the course is all that u would have to pay but when in contact with the college u apparently have to pay about 50 euro every time u meet ur supervisor while doing ur practical hours during the course( you have to meet for 30 hrs altogether ) which adds an additional 1500 to the cost, now if the course was worth doing ya wouldnt mind paying it just being told would be nice , when a friend of mine phoned they college asking is she did the course and the guidelines in regards to regulation were to come through where would she stand, the course tutor could not answer the question and informed my friend she would get someone from the WIT to phone her back as he would know more , now why would a college that runs a cert , degree and master in c&p not have this info but a lecturer in the WIT a college that only runs a cert in it know more!! have to say very disappointed and feel sorry for the ppl that will waste time and money doing this course without properly researching all aspects of it!!

BB 205

Hi all,

I did some research into the courses which the NCPII had to offer and because there was little answers to be found I wen to their information evenings.
Just to clarify I was interested in the MA in Counselling and Psychothereapy course Part time for 2 years.

The meeting was held by a man who basically had nothing to do with the courses he just had "the gift of the gab" a real sales man.
When i asked him have students got accrediation from the IACP he did not answer the question he said insted "look its your money you all should do as much research into our courses so that you can make the right decisions".

I left the information meeting still with unanswered questions so I went ahead and applied as the man said that places were limited and we only had 3days to apply!
The application fee was 200euro and non-refundable!

I then got called for an interview, which turned out to be a casual chat and surprise surprise I got offered a place.
I had the interview on a tuesday, got offered a place on the wednesday and was told I would get a letter with all the details on the thursday.
I started getting suspisions then however becasue I still hadnt rceived the letter by Friday and we had to accept by monday.

I eventually got the letter with one piece of information on it and that was the date and times of registration.
I needed to know where the part time course would take place, what nights it would be on and how much I must pay etc.........
As I found these forums on boards.ie I decided to ring the IACP myself to get some answers before I accepted my place.

The lady I spoke to from the IACP couldnt have been anymore helpful.
She told me that they do not and probally never will accredit any course from the NCPII.
She stated that there are no set standards on how counsellors and psychotherapists practice in Ireland but eventually there will be standards introduced and the IACP will most likely be the statuatory body for setting these standards.
She said that the courses at NCPII do not meet the criteria for accrediation (visit the IACP website for criteria to be met) and if the course does not meet the criteria now then you cannot reapply for accrediation because the criteria has not been met in the first place.

Also most counselling courses have an age limit of either 23 or 25 because the courses are so intense but the NCPII do not have an age limit.
Also you must do 450 hours of work after you conplete the course to have fully finished your studies.

I could talk about this all day long but the bottom line is I HAVE NOT accepted the course MA in Counselling and Psychotherapy nor would I reccomend anyone else to waste their time and money on the courses, if and when the standards are set then your qualification from the NCPII will not be recognised.

Click on this link to find a list of counselling courses which are recognised by the IACP http://www.irish-counselling.ie/index.php/recognised-training-courses.


Finally HETAC is the Higher Education and Traning Awards Council, they only give the qualification like a degree level 7/8 a masters level 9, they have nothing to do with how counsellors should practice in Ireland.

DO NOT be fooled by the NCPII courses choose an accrediated course it may cost alot more and take more time but it will all be worth it in the end

JuliusCaesar

BB 205 wrote: »

The lady I spoke to from the IACP couldnt have been anymore helpful....She stated that there are no set standards on how counsellors and psychotherapists practice in Ireland but eventually there will be standards introduced and the IACP will most likely be the statuatory body for setting these standards.

This is absolutely NOT the case. See the Statutory Registration thread.

BB 205 wrote: »

Finally HETAC is the Higher Education and Traning Awards Council, they only give the qualification like a degree level 7/8 a masters level 9, they have nothing to do with how counsellors should practice in Ireland.

This is true, at least.