The Black Death

gary29428

I was out on the lower Corrib last weekend and got a shock at the amount of Cormorants, I counted over 60 before loosing count on one small group of islands. There has always been cormorants about down there but nothing like I saw this time. They must be doing serious damage to the fish stocks. I know you can get a licance to cull a few but there needs to be something drastic done and soon.

bitemybanger

Shockin amount of the critters on the Shannon and midland lakes too.
I must investigate this licence you speak of.
I would imagine they would be very difficult to shoot as they are naturally very wary and never really let you get close enough and it is illegal to shoot from a boat.

experimenter

This should do the trick!

gary29428

Not sure you are correct about shooting from a boat, we do a lot of decoying for duck from a boat. Anyway there are ways and means of dealing with Cormorants, not that I would ever harm one.....once you know where they roost apparently they are easy shot...apparently...so I hear.

bitemybanger

gary29428 wrote: »

Not sure you are correct about shooting from a boat, we do a lot of decoying for duck from a boat. Anyway there are ways and means of dealing with Cormorants, not that I would ever harm one.....once you know where they roost apparently they are easy shot...apparently...so I hear.

Cant shoot from a boat unless its moored AFAIK and not sure what category a boat with outboard on comes into IE: motorised vehicle?
I heard they come inland when the weather is rough on the coast but their never seems to be a shortage of them. Corrib is quite close to the coast so might be why there are so many.

bitemybanger

Section 36 of the Wildlife Act, 1976 as amended by Section 44 of the Wildlife (Amendment) Act, 2000 says the following:

Notwithstanding anything contained in this Act apart from this section but subject to, section 42, a person shall not hunt or disturb for the purpose of hunting—
any wild animal by means of a mechanically-propelled, vessel or aircraft, whether it is being so propelled or is stationary,
any wild bird by means of such a, vessel or aircraft while it is being so propelled.

Daroxtar

gary29428 wrote: »

Not sure you are correct about shooting from a boat, we do a lot of decoying for duck from a boat. Anyway there are ways and means of dealing with Cormorants, not that I would ever harm one.....once you know where they roost apparently they are easy shot...apparently...so I hear.

Aye. From what I hear they're extremely allergic to .22 hornets. Poor wee things.

SeaFields

bitemybanger wrote: »

Section 36 of the Wildlife Act, 1976 as amended by Section 44 of the Wildlife (Amendment) Act, 2000 says the following:

Notwithstanding anything contained in this Act apart from this section but subject to, section 42, a person shall not hunt or disturb for the purpose of hunting—
any wild animal by means of a mechanically-propelled, vessel or aircraft, whether it is being so propelled or is stationary,
any wild bird by means of such a, vessel or aircraft while it is being so propelled.

Doesnt mention anything about a rifle so? ;)

Kess73

Cormorant numbers are dictated by the amount of potential prey available. Same as any predator. High numbers of cormorants can only happen when there is a food source that can support them.


So lots of cormorants means fish are present in very large numbers in that area.

I personally think that a lot of what gets said about the cormorant is based on lack of knowledge. Much in the way some game fisherman will come out and say that pike should be culled on rivers like the Shannon. Something I have heard more than once from nearby fishermen when I have been returning pike to the water.

There has been a lot of study put into cormorants in the UK, both by fishing groups and the BTO, and guess what? Neither group have been able to find anything that proves the cormorant wipes out fish in an area. In fact strong arguements have been put forward for the cormorant being a vital aid in maintaining a balance in fish numbers.

There is no doubt that cormorants eat fish. Anything from a stickleback to a very small pike, but until I get some proper evidence that they are having a serious adverse effect upon wild fish stocks, I sure as hell would not support anyone who wanted to kill them, nor would I sit back and let someone cull them based on no facts. It is a different story if an alien species was introduced and it was doing harm, but cormorants are around a hell of a long time and I would wager that their impact upon fish stocks pales in comparison to the destruction caused by man.

Maybe we should wipe out otters next as they eat fish. Herons eat about a third of their body weight a day so they are next.

I would regard the posioning or shooting of them with the same level of disgust that I give to poachers, polluters, or anyone else that damages the waterways.

Sorry to have gone against the grain in this thread, but the idea of senseless killing of wildlife really sticks in my craw.

viper123

Well said Kess73! It's mildly amusing how many people are quick to blame the wildlife for dwindling fish stocks when it is their own species which is causing 99.999% of the problems to begin with.

I would however disgree on your statement regarding cormorant populations linked to the supply of fish on freshwaters. The fact remains that they are following the only remaining supplies of fish in our island, there is currently very little left in the sea for them to eat hence their arrivals in freshwaters in more and more numbers each year. The lake I am a member of in Galway sees more and more each year (at times I've seen groups of 20/30 on the shoreline) however I'm not going to blame them for searching for a meal, especially as it's humans which have caused them to be ther in the first place.

bitemybanger

Good points guys.
In my own opinion like what viper said it stems from over fishing in thier own environment which forces them inland to seek more food but there lies another problem. There are not enough freshwater fish in our Eco system to sustain these birds in such numbers therefore a cull woul be nessesary to keep the balance.
Cormorants don't just eat small fish, I have personally witnessed on a number of occasions, cormorants surfacing with fish up to 3lbs, mostly trout and not being able to take off with a belly full of fish.
As usual it's not thier fault but the greed of mankind.
If it is just left as is it would start a downward spiral effecting alot more than just fish stocks.
I do believe they play a part in the natural balance but fear it will be too late before the scientists or people who are trying to protect the cormorant realise it's the "big picture" were looking at and not just looking out for the future of our sport.

scuby

one example, "found" a cormorant with an 18inch rainbow inside him, freshly swallowed, as he not not begun to breakdown. it was near a local stocked lake.

Had some of the local rivers infested with them years ago, and since the birds were "moved on" the fish stocks came back.

nothing to do with rivers being cleaned up pollution wise, as this was always being monitored.

gary29428

Having fished the Corrib for over 20yrs and in particular this area, I don't need some scientific survey or study to tell me 1) the numbers of birds in that area has increased hugely in the last few years and 2) there are a lot less fish in the area, partly down to us and partly down to them. But what is significant is the amount of fish we now get in that area with cormorant damage. This can range from slight marks across the flanks to huge open cuts. How can the fish stocks in an area cope with no cormorants to over 100, it's not a "lack of knowledge" but simple maths. If all these birds eat one fish a day each, that's 700 a week, 2800 a month, 33600 a year. In a coupe of hundred acres of water... net result, no fish. They are indeed a plague on wild fish stocks in Corrib, I suggest the cormorant huggers get out and see what it's like on the ground before they start throwing about words like poachers and polluters.

Kess73

gary29428 wrote: »

Having fished the Corrib for over 20yrs and in particular this area, I don't need some scientific survey or study to tell me 1) the numbers of birds in that area has increased hugely in the last few years and 2) there are a lot less fish in the area, partly down to us and partly down to them. But what is significant is the amount of fish we now get in that area with cormorant damage. This can range from slight marks across the flanks to huge open cuts. How can the fish stocks in an area cope with no cormorants to over 100, it's not a "lack of knowledge" but simple maths. If all these birds eat one fish a day each, that's 700 a week, 2800 a month, 33600 a year. In a coupe of hundred acres of water... net result, no fish. They are indeed a plague on wild fish stocks in Corrib, I suggest the cormorant huggers get out and see what it's like on the ground before they start throwing about words like poachers and polluters.

Cormorant huggers. Good one.:rolleyes:

I do know what it is like "on the ground" I have been fishing here in Ireland, in the UK and in mainland Europwe for almost 30 years, so I have a fiar idea of hopw things are "on the ground"

You mention marks on the flanks, I will assume that is a pair of lines, one on each flank, the same mark that gets left on fish by herons.

You also bring up your simple maths. Otters eat fish. More than one a day. Does that mean they should be shot as well.

Most herons will eat more than one fish a day. Shoot them too should we?

I'm just curious if we cull the cormorants, then what species is next to be culled for doing what comes naturally?


Waterways in Ireland, more than many other Euopean countries, have far bigger problems than cormorants. Problems that are a much bigger threat than cormorants. But hey, let's just keep Irish ignorance towards wildlife going.

Eagles and similar raptors get introduced into Ireland and what happens? People kill them as they cry out that they are a threat to this and that. Funny how the same birds can thrive in Scotland and mainland Europe without every causing any of the problems that they are meant to be a risk of here in Ireland.

Otters have been slaughtered in huge numbers in the past both here and in the UK. A massive threat to fish many cried back then. Funnily enough fish numbers did not grow when the otter numbers dropped.

From my experience the biggest threats in this country to fish numbers are all caused directly or indirectly by man. Poaching, polluting, overfishing, ignorance, poor enforcement of regulations, take your pick as to what hits the waterways.

You say that there are less fish in the Corrib and that it is partly down to man and partly down to the cormorants. I would say that the problems are mostly down to man.

gary29428

If you read my post again Kess73 you will see I am talking about a specific location on Corrib, I didn't mention anything about the whole of corrib. I am very close to this area and know it like the back of my hand. I think your comments about herons and otters are to be honest ridiculous. I have not seen 100 herons or otters over me lifetime let alone in the same place at the same time. I know of 3 herons in the area and have not seen an otter down there in my life. What herons and otters take I would argue is insignificant. I have also never seen a heron take a 2-3lb fish, maybe they do but I certainly never heard of it. Now lets be fair about this, I would in no way buy into a mass cull of cormorants on Corrib, but I certainly would buy into a reduction in numbers and certainly introduce some of the scare tactics in use on UK still waters. I can't see how you can say 100 birds in a relativly small area would not have an effect of the fish population, to my mind they will decimate the place. So if you except that these birds are feeding readily in the area (100+birds), what effect do you think this will have. If you say none then you are kiddin yourself, if you agree that it will have an effect do you just let them at it...

bitemybanger

At the end of the day fishing is one of the largest attractions of Ireland to tourists from all over the world and in Perticular game fishing, Corrib being the creme of the crop and if numbers of comorants have to be reduced to protect that industry it's acceptable in my eyes. I don't mean an extermination, that would be ridiculas but a cull to bring down the numbers to compromise so the number of fish can sustain a certain population of them comfortably which currently,realistically is non sustainable.
As always, we will have animal lovers who have tunnel vision on this and who don't see the bigger picture.

4gun

I do a nice bit of sea fishing during the summer and was well used to getting 7 and 8 lb pollack form a rock mark that I go to, that is untill a couple of years ago when fishermen started getting a goog price for a box of pollack now you would be luck to get a 4 lb one while the fishermen in dingle are now blaming the seals for their dwindling stock
I knew a chap that caught 17 bass from roughly the same place and spent years wondering why he cant catch them there again
most likely cause of falling fish stocks is sombody is catching them illeagally as in the case of trout and salmon

ironbluedun

4gun wrote: »

I knew a chap that caught 17 bass from roughly the same place and spent years wondering why he cant catch them there again

i have met loads of anglers who for years killed large bags of wild trout then they wonder why the fish are gone!!
yes cormorants need to be controlled........but anglers also need to be controlled.
that's the main point if anglers keep killing fish then stocks will continue to dwindle.

huge damage is being done by anglers who fish within the law rather than outside of it. So who's fault is that?

ironbluedun

bitemybanger wrote: »

At the end of the day fishing is one of the largest attractions of Ireland to tourists from all over the world and in Perticular game fishing, Corrib being the creme of the crop and if numbers of comorants have to be reduced to protect that industry it's acceptable in my eyes. I don't mean an extermination, that would be ridiculas but a cull to bring down the numbers to compromise so the number of fish can sustain a certain population of them comfortably which currently,realistically is non sustainable.
As always, we will have animal lovers who have tunnel vision on this and who don't see the bigger picture.

i agree........the cormorants are a problem but the anglers not returning fish is a far bigger problem. And its a problem that many anglers can not come to terms with.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

bitemybanger wrote: »

As always, we will have animal lovers who have tunnel vision on this and who don't see the bigger picture.

Well from reading this thread its not animal lovers that have tunnel vision. Trout and cormorants have lived for thousands of years side by side in the corrib. If the lake was over stocked with trout, i dont think there would be a thread demanding the netting of trout? however if the levels of trout were low, and there were few cormorants you can be sure there would be a mass cull of pike on the lake. nature always finds a balance, when heavy handed people get involved, thats when the problems start.


Few questions:
1. why are there more cormorants on the lake?
would it not be more beneficial to all to know this, rather than a shoot first ask questions later approach? The birds didnt appear from thin air. my 2 cents on this is the the obvoius answer, over fishing on the sea, which is forcing the birds in. until this problem is fixed and stocks are able to recover i cant see the birds going away. shooting is a short term solution.

2. Are people returning trout?
if the stocks are low, then all fish should be returned. otherwise anglers are adding to the problem. All the coarse lakes around me which had fishing stands built around 10-12 years ago are nearly dead from over fishing.

3. Has the bag limit been dropped?
the stocks would recover quicker if so

I believe this is the "bigger picture" which bitemybanger mentioned :cool:

Its a shame all these threads turn into childish fights between people's opinions. This this post is my opinion, im no scientist, i could be 100% wrong.....

bitemybanger

Everyone is entitled to thier opinion and our opinion is not to dissimilar (read post 11)
The difference being I know something somewhere has to be done.
We have to ask ourselves why has the number of cormorants increased so much in such a short space of time and try and resolve it from the source which in my opinion is over fishing at sea but commercial fishing in Ireland is huge and it would be near impossible to address this at source.
The thread wasn't "childish fight between peoples opinions" until your singing off on the post. Good post until then.

delsalmon

well on the river i live on there are 12 cormorants that perch on the same spot every day. its virtually empty nowadays, alot of mink on it too. the comp results say it all, catch n release river. there has been a report/survey on dwindling stocks on rivers in denmark, twould never happen here in our backward country, plans in denmark is to cull to an acceptable level to bring back fish numbers. cormorants have a parasite in stomach and due to lack of oily sea fish have to eat more freshwater fish to sustain themselves, roughly 3lb a day. 12cormorants x 3lb= 36lb per day, 36lb x 30days= 1080lb per month, the maths speak for itself

viper123

delsalmon wrote: »

well on the river i live on there are 12 cormorants that perch on the same spot every day. its virtually empty nowadays, alot of mink on it too. the comp results say it all, catch n release river. there has been a report/survey on dwindling stocks on rivers in denmark, twould never happen here in our backward country, plans in denmark is to cull to an acceptable level to bring back fish numbers. cormorants have a parasite in stomach and due to lack of oily sea fish have to eat more freshwater fish to sustain themselves, roughly 3lb a day. 12cormorants x 3lb= 36lb per day, 36lb x 30days= 1080lb per month, the maths speak for itself

Where did you get those statistics?

delsalmon

read a few years back, think it was on the danish report, normally at sea they eat 800-900g, but inshore double that. as far as i know there is a survey going on here now, but birdwatch ireland is doing it, so prob wont get a cull

scuby

http://www.eaa-europe.org/index.php?id=123

delsalmon

holy sh1t scuby, 30000lb daily, rifles at the ready:eek: