Pope to be told church here 'on edge of collapse'

Rabidlamb

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/pope-to-be-told-church-here-on-edge-of-collapse-2538910.html

By John Cooney Religion Correspondent

Monday February 14 2011

THE Pope will be officially told the Irish Catholic Church is "on the edge" of national collapse and has only five to 10 years to make a radical recovery by giving laymen and women a greater say in decision-making.

This warning will be submitted in the coming months in a confidential report to Pope Benedict XVI by an international investigator examining the state of the Irish church in the wake of the Murphy and Ryan reports into clerical child abuse.

Cardinal Sean O'Malley, the archbishop of Boston, gave this commitment at a private meeting with members of the recently formed Catholic Priests' Association, Redemptorist priest Fr Tony Flannery revealed at the weekend.

Addressing the annual meeting of The People of God, a lay reform group, Fr Flannery, who met Cardinal O'Malley, revealed that the US prelate engaged in "serious discussion" with the association.

Fr Flannery said Cardinal O'Malley told the association that the Irish church had a decade, at most, to avoid falling over the edge and "becoming like other European countries" where religion is marginal to society.

Previously sceptical about the Apostolic Visitation to Ireland ordered by Pope Benedict, Fr Flannery said that in the light of Cardinal O'Malley's undertaking, "there may be some gleam of hope".

Support

But he also revealed that at a separate meeting with the papal investigator into the Archdiocese of Tuam, Canadian Archbishop Terrence Prendergast told the association that conservative lay groups in the west had expressed support for the Irish bishops despite their record of cover-ups of paedophile clerics.

Fr Flannery said that while the Association of Catholic Priests was ready to campaign for radical change, it was apprehensive that it would be viewed as "a new clericalism".

The association's preference was for lay groups, such as Pobal, to come forward and give voice to the aspirations of the majority of Catholics for change, Fr Flannery added.

- John Cooney Religion Correspondent

Looks like there are internal rumblings.
If we could get rid of the church & FF in the same decade, that would be good.

MagicMarker

What a shame...

NecroSteve

YES! I'd love to see that whole array of scum collapse and smash to pieces some day soon.

Dades

NecroSteve wrote: »

YES! I'd love to see that whole array of scum collapse and smash to pieces some day soon.

NecroSteve: Yes, we all have our problems with the church but lowbrow generalisations such as yours aren't considered useful input here.

The organisation may be rotten, but there are many who don't deserve that label.

Dave!

smellslikeshoes

This warning will be submitted in the coming months in a confidential report to Pope Benedict XVI

Eh? How is it in any way confidential if it's existence is being reported on by the Irish Independent's website. Just seems like some sort of Church propaganda to galvanise church followers.

mikhail

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

Eh? How is it in any way confidential if it's existence is being reported on by the Irish Independent's website. Just seems like some sort of Church propaganda to galvanise church followers.

The report is confidential, but that doesn't stop random priests from announcing the gist of what went on in a meeting with its authors. It's all there in the article.

has only five to 10 years to make a radical recovery by giving laymen and women a greater say in decision-making

That's not really catholicism though now is it, it's just watered down.

I'm not a fan but I suppose they should really be sticking to their principles

robindch

bluewolf wrote: »

That's not really catholicism though now is it, it's just watered down.

Called "cafeteria catholicism" I believe

amacachi

Kind reminds me of some kind of protestantism...

Bottle_of_Smoke

amacachi wrote: »

Kind reminds me of some kind of protestantism...

That's what's hilarious about Irish Catholics. I have one relation with a picture of the pope on the wall and goes to mass every sunday, but thinks being gay is natural and supports same sex marriage, also thinks priests should marry and women should be allowed to be priests... Not sure her views on contraception but it would seem most Irish catholics are fine with it!

So basically most Irish Catholics are really Church of Ireland at heart.

Morag

I reckon the majority of catholics are anglicans they just don't know it
and are ignorant of what the church of Ireland is and how it is run and what the dogma and beliefs are.

mikhail

Sharrow wrote: »

I reckon the majority of catholics are anglicans they just don't know it.

Not too many of them would accept the Queen of England as the head of their religion, so no, not really. It's a slightly better fit on beliefs alone though, yeah.

johnfás

mikhail wrote: »

Not too many of them would accept the Queen of England as the head of their religion, so no, not really. It's a slightly better fit on beliefs alone though, yeah.

The Church of Ireland has been disestablished since 1871. Its titular head is the Archbishop of Armagh who is elected by a combination of lay and clerical electors.

smokingman

In fairness, what can they possibly do to bring us heathens back to their church?
Not much given their utter contempt for their "flock".

I look forward to the day when christians in Ireland are a very small minority.

mikhail

johnfás wrote: »

The Church of Ireland has been disestablished since 1871. Its titular head is the Archbishop of Armagh who is elected by a combination of lay and clerical electors.

My mistake; I understood Anglican to refer specifically to the CoE.

Sharrow wrote: »

Wow there are still people so ignorant to think a person can't be anglican and irish or republican? Educate yourself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theobald_Wolfe_Tone

I didn't say it wasn't possible, merely that most Irish folks wouldn't be comfortable accepting Lizzy as the head of their church. Learn to read.

johnfás

mikhail wrote: »

My mistake; I understood Anglican to refer specifically to the CoE.

The terminology can be slightly confusing. Anglicanism is a type of Church rather than specifically the Church of England. The Anglican Communion is a rather loose federation of churches from around the globe who all ascribe the term Anglican to themselves, the Church of Ireland included. There are also certain Churches outside of the Anglican Communion who ascribe the word Anglican (or Episcopalian) to themselves. The terms Episcopalian and Anglican are generally used interchangeably. For example, the Anglican Church in Scotland is called the Episcopalian Church of Scotland, rather than the Church of Scotland which is in fact a Presbyterian Church.

The titular head of one church within the Anglican Communion (the Church of England) is Queen Elizabeth, but she is not even for example the titular head of the Anglican Church in Scotland. Similarly, the titular head of the Anglican Communion is the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Queen has no role. As I said though, the worldwide Anglican Communion is a loose confederation and the key players in the Church of Ireland reside within the Church itself. It cannot be dictated to by the outside. Bishops within the COI are appointed following election by lay and clerical members of their Church, not from the outside as they are in the Catholic Church - ie by the Vatican.

On a completely different note, Pepsi Cola is an anagram of Episcopal. So you can think of that next time you have a glass of it .

fontanalis

I hope David Quinn has his favourite teddy bear ready!

hinault

John Cooney.

Not that Cooney would be biased against the RCC?:rolleyes::rolleyes:

recedite

johnfás wrote: »

Anglicanism is a type of Church rather than specifically the Church of England. The Anglican Communion is a rather loose federation of churches from around the globe who all ascribe the term Anglican to themselves, the Church of Ireland included. There are also certain Churches outside of the Anglican Communion who ascribe the word Anglican (or Episcopalian) to themselves.
On a completely different note, Pepsi Cola is an anagram of Episcopal. So you can think of that next time you have a glass of it .

Anywhere that expat C of E colonists settled, they founded anglican churches that mirrored their native religion at the time. It's interesting to watch as all these churches evolve independently, and the tensions that arise. For example the Ugandans apparently have little contact with the English these days, depite being "in communion" with them, because of the difference in attitude to gay bishops. C of I in the Republic started praying for "the President" instead of "the Queen" after political independence here.

Re Pepsi, I'll have to give up that bishops juice now. Its annoying because I already boycott Coke due its promotion of the Santa Claus myth. Is Dr Peppers a good atheist drink?

Coriolanus

recedite wrote: »

Re Pepsi, I'll have to give up that bishops juice now. Its annoying because I already boycott Coke due its promotion of the Santa Claus myth. Is Dr Peppers a good atheist drink?

I was told it as a lad that it was full of protein.

Anyway, on topic, as much as I wish it would, I can't see it happening because the laity and the clergy, the Vatican included are more than happy to continue with the myth that the Irish are Catholic rather than a bastardised Anglican community. They're not going to crack down on theological or procedural matters here because they know that'd be the final nail.
So, expect to see the edifice limping along in it's current form for a good few decades yet.

PeterIanStaker

Great news to brighten up a Monday, I hope the organisation here does indeed collapse. It has done far too much damage to our country and its people.

Maybe it'll dwindle to the extent that they can no longer poke their noses into education and government policy.

CiaranMT

Something I see as inevitable. My cohort (those from 17-25) have little or no interest in religion and don't see it as very important. Add in that the RCC will basically have to import priests from other countries, as they have done from places in Africa where priests are a dime a dozen, and you will see mass attendances drop off further among those who still attend because those who go will be put off by the unfamiliar accents of their new priests.

Not that they'll go quietly though.

amacachi

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

That's what's hilarious about Irish Catholics. I have one relation with a picture of the pope on the wall and goes to mass every sunday, but thinks being gay is natural and supports same sex marriage, also thinks priests should marry and women should be allowed to be priests... Not sure her views on contraception but it would seem most Irish catholics are fine with it!

So basically most Irish Catholics are really Church of Ireland at heart.

But what if they believe in the literal transubstantiation?

robindch

amacachi wrote: »

But what if they believe in the literal transubstantiation?

Does anybody believe it?

amacachi

robindch wrote: »

Does anybody believe it?

I thought it was the whole point of staying Catholic. :pac:

Bottle_of_Smoke

amacachi wrote: »

But what if they believe in the literal transubstantiation?

I don't think any of them do to be honest. I really get the impression most people just see it as a ceremonial act of respect for Jesus,

Dades

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I really get the impression most people just see it as a ceremonial act of respect for Jesus,

I respect you Jesus... nom nom nom.

Rabidlamb

amacachi wrote: »

But what if they believe in the literal transubstantiation?

The Metro North was cancelled.

old hippy

I look fwd to the dwindling influence of the church in Ireland. For years we were shackled to it, I cannot understand why some still stick to it through thick and thin. I guess it's a form of stockholm syndrome...

In the early 90s my sis was told (whilst doing a vox pop for her college) that if "ye ignore it; it'll go away" - this in response to how do you feel about recent reports of child abuse. Jeez! What made people ignore abuse for so long? Were they conditioned to do so - was the clergy so sacrosanct that such an idea was inconceivable.

Btw, am glad this forum exists, I have had to bite my tongue on the pro-religious forums here on occasion. I'm fascinated by religion, don't get me wrong but it's when it comes down to absolutes it gets me riled.

Thanks for listening.

robindch

Dades wrote: »

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I really get the impression most people just see it as a ceremonial act of respect for Jesus,

I respect you Jesus... nom nom nom.

Even as a kid, it was what happened after you ate it that made no religious sense.

Stercus Accidit

And what part of jesus' body is it supposed to be anyway, its shaped like a slice of salami...

Calibos

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

And what part of jesus' body is it supposed to be anyway, its shaped like a slice of salami...

...Please don't finish that thought :eek: