Overtraining

tunney

Overtraining is something that happens in endurance sports. Ideally it wouldn't and it can be avoided. To improve alot you need to over-reach. Over-reaching is over-training but you pull it back just in time before it becomes over training.

Basically you have over-reaching, then sympathetic overtraining, then parasympathetic overtraining. In the last state most of the indicators do not suggestion overtraining but when you get here the road home is long and lonesome.

Other nice OT related issues lurking out there are endocrine system overload. This one cost me an entire season, well June/July/August. Training, racing, diet and lifestyle all combined to leave me effectively burnt out and requiring a long long lay off, significant diet changes. This episode meant I was getting frequent injuries as it resulted in my body being too quick to become inflammed and too slow to recover. Thankfully I knew a few people who are well versed in all things overtraining, injury and illness related and I was able to get back in time for a solid off season. Sharing and discussion of information on this was invaluable. (None of it happened here although its all relevant)

I've found that overtraining is caused, for me, more by periods of too frequent racing coupled with frequent high intensity workouts, however I know of others that huge and sustained increases in low-medium intenisty work outs have left them in a bad state.

I've found over the years that there are many classical signs and identifing these while in the over reaching stage can stop them becoming overtraining. The endocrine one required lab tests for hormone levels so you do often need to get solid medical advice but more often than not discussion about how you are feeling and what the body is felling and asking others for advice can help, they don't even have to be that knowledgable, sometimes the act of just articulating your questions allows you to see the answer.

For me the signs of overtraining are:
* Reduced sex drive, if 30 minute after a ride you don't think you'd be up for the other kind of ride, thats a sign.
* Rest heart rate up
* Unable to get heart rate up when training
* Heart rate, PE, and power/pace out of whack
* Cravings for sugary foods
* Heart rate variablity drops and stays dropped
* Performances don't match expectations
* Lack of motivation
* Mood swings
* Crankiness
* Inability to sleep
* Constantly sore muscles
* Regular injuries

Some of the signs mean nothing in isolation, some mean you are fvcked. Learning to recognise them in advance and flag recognise where you are in the over-reaching/over-training areas is key.

For classical overtraining I've gone too hard, too long and without sufficient recovery. I raced too often, trained too hard and didn't let myself recover. That was the ethos and approach of the club I was in.

I never went to a doctor when I was over trained and the hormone tests and similar for endocrine systems were done without a doctors input. Unfortunately unless you have a quality sports doctor, and these are few and far between, your wasting your time going to a medical practitioner for advice on diagnosising this and dealing with it. (Although why you would even consider going to a doctor for this I do not know). For all the inflamation problems I never went to a doctor (for the above reasons), and thankfully at this stage I had realised the waste of money that are physios, the people I went to were highly skilled and experienced but not medical practioners. (In fact one of these people treated me after I was hit by a bus. When I returned to the orthopedic surgeon for a check up some weeks after the accident I was asked "was i sent to a physio?" I replied "No, but I went to someone who specialises in sports injuries" The surgeon laughed, dismissed them, and then said he'd "investigate the damage". After a detailed examination I witnessed something I've never seen before. A complete u-turn and total and complete apology and "whatever that person is doing keep going to them, you could't even tell that the bus had hit you. amazing".) So in short medical advice and physios is really unlikely to help you here I've found. So who did I turn to? Who would I recommend turning too? If you did yourself into a hole I've always found the advice of more experienced athletes, and my coach, invaluable. That being said the frequency of digging myself into a hole is much much less since working with a quality coach.

An injury, or more likely a cluster of injuries and illness may have a very simple cause - overtraining. Diagnosis of this does not require dropping 60 yoyos on a trip to the doctor or physio. Previously for me a bad diet, poor lifestyle and dropping too much weight too quickly meant inflammation issues were frequent and drugs didn't help (not that drugs were the cause, anti-inflamations didn't address the inflamation). Overtraining, or under recovery, was the problem.

What I found helps me when I think I am starting to cross the line between over reaching and over training :
* Backing off, sounds obvious but trickier to do
* Sleeping more
* Diet - whacking fruit and veg into me, good sources of protein
* Cut back on alcohol, refined foods and coffee
* Massage
* Talk to someone you trust, and getting advice, help to recognise that the injury(s) and illness(es) are probably all link
* Switching off mentally and doing something different. This helps me destress with regards training and less stress means less inflamation
* If needs be going for hormone tests and seeing do you need to address something more, at this stage you probably will need to enlist the help of a paid professional but its unlikely to be a doctor or physio (part of my problems with refering all injuries and illnesses to a doctor/physio)

I've always found that recovering from overtraining very difficult but preventing it not as bad. A stitch in time and all that.
That being said at the moment I would love to be borderline overtrained and having to pull it back rather than completlely under trained.

Anyways probably a less than coherent rambling brought about by production issues at two am and waiting for log files and the fact quite a few posters have asked about over training recently - mainly in email as they didn't feel that the threads would be left open.

dare2be

Tunney

Out of the 13 signs of overtraining i have about 6 of them at present. I'll not go into them all but when i was reading from top to bottom they did seem all relevant.

I had backed off on the training front allowing myself more rest days (currently training for Barcelona) which i thought would help with injury etc. I'm currently sufffering from ITB and have visited a good sports massage therapist and ditched the physio idea as i paid for what was basically a chance for him to talk sh*te for 45mins whilst hooking me up to a tens (?spelling) machine.

The fact that you have mentioned crankiness and mood swings caught my eye as i feel im turning into a different person at times. Losing the head with the slightest of things and its not good!! Never thought it would be down to overtraining but there you go.

Cravings for sugary foods has also got out of control. I cant seem to leave chocolate alone during the day and whilst my diet was never great i should be in better shape than i currently am considering the training intensities i train at.

One or two other signs on your list is relevant but then this forum becomes a tad personal so i'll leave it at that. Maybe drop you a pm??

Good topic for discussion. Interesting to hear other peoples views.

tunney

tunney@gmail.com or PMs. Whatever floats your boat!

mloc123

tunney wrote: »

* Mood swings
* Crankiness

These are usually more noticeable to your OH than yourself.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Great post Tunney. I reckon i am over reaching at the moment in my IM training and very close to over training so need to pull it back a bit. Interesting topic and one that novices like myself overlook.

shotgunmcos

+1 nice post Tunney. Yes the signs are not all physical but mental too, a change of 'state' you can call it. I have definiately entered the realms of over reaching lately. It happened in the middle of a 4 week block of which the last week was a recovery week. The point I became self aware was about 9 days from my next full rest day which is today . I noticed my motivation the fisrt to go. I'd procrastinate more, give sessions a half hearted effort etc... Once aware though I knew I had to back off in some shape or form. There was a benchmark session to define the end of the block that was paramount for me in terms of key sessions. I treated that single session like an important race and once I escalated the focus of it to such a priority my behaviour changed. My will to forge ahead with the hard session diminished to a more risk averse nature. I backed off intensity significantly, dropped semi important sessions and went to bed earlier. As a result I noticed my motivation really geared up for the benchmark session.

Half way through the session to my dismay I though I was bonking early, but then realised I was just climbing a hill It turned into the session I had anticipated. Without a doubt if I had not reined it back in I'd have missed or cut that session short of the intentions and would no doubt be looking for somewhere to get it done in the near future.

As a result I have arrived at my rest day, in need of rest but the kind of rest to get me up on the saddle for another go, not the rest from breakdown.

Yes the over reaching is necessary to get you out of your comfort zone but remember that you are playing with fire when you do so. It can have real benefits but without a purpose or a hieghtened level of awareness it can be too late before you cross the line.

The line for me was last thursday. I had planned 2*20 mins threshold on the turbo. I was tired, motivation zilch, work had been crazy and I was aware that I was burning the candle at both ends. I rationalised that the 2*20 was too much and would certainly push me over the edge. My gremlin stepped in and suggested 2*10 mins... sure its only 20 mins work!

12 months agao I would have listed to him, this time I listened to my tired body and dropped the session. The difference between missing a planned session and dropping a planned session in this regard? NO GUILT.


Interesting point Tunney brought up there too at the end of his post.
"I'd rather be borderline overtrained than undertrained"..

What are the thoughts on this?

jcunniffe

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Interesting point Tunney brought up there too at the end of his post.
"I'd rather be borderline overtrained than undertrained"..

What are the thoughts on this?

Tunney's exact quote was: "I would love to be borderline overtrained and having to pull it back rather than completlely under trained" (emphasis mine).

I don't think he's advocating overtraining, just that working to cope with the max training load you can handle (and maybe over-reaching a little) and then adjusting back based on intelligently monitoring the physical/mental state is a preferable position to being "completely under trained".

I'd have to agree with him on that.

J

tyler71

I got my overtraining confirmed by going to Trevor Woods in UCC for a fitness test - my resting lactate levels were something like six times what they should be and my lactate threshold had dropped 20bpm.
I wouldn't rule out an initial trip to the doctor for blood tests though, to eliminate any other issues - a triathlete I talked to went to the doctor with similar symptoms and got diagnosed with something a lot more serious. I also wanted to get my iron levels checked as well. But I'd agree with the general point - doctors are concerned mostly with whether you're ill or not, not if your performance has dropped 5 or 10%.
Symptoms were pretty much as above, cranky (definitely confirmed by the OH), eating sugary foods and no motivation - this is actually difficult to determine when you're in the middle of it, but afterwards you remember how long it was since you had a training session or a race where you were just raring to go and smack it. I also found that I couldn't get my heartrate up and found that when I was trying to do interval sessions at a high intensity I felt a strong nausea, very similar to how you would feel after a intense sprint, which I have now associated with lactic acid levels, (this might be just a personal thing).
So having backed off, I've since found that my ability to properly absorb training is much less than I'd like, which has put a bit of a damper of my short term ambitions of going for an IM, but by training less and choosing my sessions better I am seeing small improvements but more importantly, am enjoying training again.

tunney

jcunniffe wrote: »

Tunney's exact quote was: "I would love to be borderline overtrained and having to pull it back rather than completlely under trained" (emphasis mine).

I don't think he's advocating overtraining, just that working to cope with the max training load you can handle (and maybe over-reaching a little) and then adjusting back based on intelligently monitoring the physical/mental state is a preferable position to being "completely under trained".

I'd have to agree with him on that.

J

Exactly what i meant

MaroonTam

Tunney, question for you.

We all spend a lot of time putting maximum effort into targeting quality sessions in training.

How do you ensure you get quality into your rest periods? I assume a session on the coach watching TV would not be considered ideal rest... Any tips?

Right now I am finding sleep to be the biggest drain. I have never been a great sleeper, but at present I feel it could be holding me back in some areas.

Thanks

Krusty_Clown

Over-reaching - is this moving beyond the bounds of your current capability?

The terminology makes it sound like something negative, as in something you shouldn't do, but I guess that based on the info above, over-reaching is something you should be trying to achieve to move up a notch towards your goal (whether that's faster, longer, harder, etc), as long as you pull-back before you move into the realm of over-training. Or is over-reaching going one step further (one step too far)?

jcunniffe

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Over-reaching - is this moving beyond the bounds of your current capability?

The terminology makes it sound like something negative, as in something you shouldn't do, but I guess that based on the info above, over-reaching is something you should be trying to achieve to move up a notch towards your goal (whether that's faster, longer, harder, etc), as long as you pull-back before you move into the realm of over-training. Or is over-reaching going one step further (one step too far)?

Krusty,

There are various definitions out there but i would think of over-reaching as a reduction in performance capacity over a period of days-2 weeks due to lack of absorption of the training load. It can be reversed with a reduction in training intensity/volume and increased recovery over a similar timescale (days-weeks).

Overtraining syndrome/etc is where you keep digging the hole and at a certain point the body is not going to recover on any short time scale. You add in extra recovery and you still feel wrecked and Tunney's symptom list above still applies. Recovery from this state can take months. i.e. it tends to be season-ending and may impact on your fitness starting point for next season as well.

Basically we all flirt with over-reaching in heavy parts of the season but sensible monitoring of symptoms can help avoiding digging that hole too deep and screwing up the season.

Getting highly motivated athletes to back off from pushing themselves into the hole sometimes requires a good training environment/coach but often includes some bitter experience

J

shotgunmcos

jcunniffe wrote: »

Tunney's exact quote was: "I would love to be borderline overtrained and having to pull it back rather than completlely under trained" (emphasis mine).

I don't think he's advocating overtraining, just that working to cope with the max training load you can handle (and maybe over-reaching a little) and then adjusting back based on intelligently monitoring the physical/mental state is a preferable position to being "completely under trained".

I'd have to agree with him on that.

J

Sorry I should have quoted the text then, my bad. My post though was to higlight both seperately not to insinuate that Tunney advocated overtraining.

Borderline overtrained vs Completely undertrained... thoughts?

Give it some context, you have a race in 2 days. Which state would you prefer to be in?

tunney

MaroonTam wrote: »

Tunney, question for you.

We all spend a lot of time putting maximum effort into targeting quality sessions in training.

How do you ensure you get quality into your rest periods? I assume a session on the coach watching TV would not be considered ideal rest... Any tips?

Right now I am finding sleep to be the biggest drain. I have never been a great sleeper, but at present I feel it could be holding me back in some areas.

Thanks

Sleep is not a drain - sleep is the ideal recovery. I think it was Ned Overend who when asked what he did for rest and recovery said "Sleep".

If not sleeping look at why and if possible address it.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Over-reaching - is this moving beyond the bounds of your current capability?

The terminology makes it sound like something negative, as in something you shouldn't do, but I guess that based on the info above, over-reaching is something you should be trying to achieve to move up a notch towards your goal (whether that's faster, longer, harder, etc), as long as you pull-back before you move into the realm of over-training. Or is over-reaching going one step further (one step too far)?

Oh I was going to answer this but its great to have the famous JC back on. Alot of the old posters back and JC is definitely one to read and pay attention too.

jcunniffe wrote: »

Krusty,

There are various definitions out there but i would think of over-reaching as a reduction in performance capacity over a period of days-2 weeks due to lack of absorption of the training load. It can be reversed with a reduction in training intensity/volume and increased recovery over a similar timescale (days-weeks).

Overtraining syndrome/etc is where you keep digging the hole and at a certain point the body is not going to recover on any short time scale. You add in extra recovery and you still feel wrecked and Tunney's symptom list above still applies. Recovery from this state can take months. i.e. it tends to be season-ending and may impact on your fitness starting point for next season as well.

Basically we all flirt with over-reaching in heavy parts of the season but sensible monitoring of symptoms can help avoiding digging that hole too deep and screwing up the season.

Getting highly motivated athletes to back off from pushing themselves into the hole sometimes requires a good training environment/coach but often includes some bitter experience

J

As JC said - overreaching is when you start digging the hole but you stop before it gets too deep to climb back out of.

tunney

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Sorry I should have quoted the text then, my bad. My post though was to higlight both seperately not to insinuate that Tunney advocated overtraining.

Borderline overtrained vs Completely undertrained... thoughts?

Give it some context, you have a race in 2 days. Which state would you prefer to be in?

Define race.

shotgunmcos

tunney wrote: »

Define race.

B priority Marathon

tunney

shotgunmcos wrote: »

B priority Marathon

Ah the school of thought that includes "must do a marathon to prep for an IM" and probably "must do a HIM to prep for an IM".

For a B race - I'd choose neither, slightly rested but not so rested that it affects the training for the A race too much.

MaroonTam

tunney wrote: »

Sleep is not a drain - sleep is the ideal recovery. I think it was Ned Overend who when asked what he did for rest and recovery said "Sleep".

If not sleeping look at why and if possible address it.

Thanks Tunney.

i should clarify, I find lack of sleep a drain, not sleep itself (which I particularly enjoy when I get a good night)

Simmo39

Hi Tunney,

I'm just getting back to a bit of light training(65%running/cycling) after been advised to take 5 months off due to overtrain. The issue i have come across now is that I'm not sleeping ( i have a post up 'change in sleep pattern') I'm just getting really restless sleep since i started back training 5 weeks now, waking up a few times during the night but waking up wide awake..

Would you have any suggestions regarding this?

Thanks,

tunney

Simmo39 wrote: »

Hi Tunney,

I'm just getting back to a bit of light training(65%running/cycling) after been advised to take 5 months off due to overtrain. The issue i have come across now is that I'm not sleeping ( i have a post up 'change in sleep pattern') I'm just getting really restless sleep since i started back training 5 weeks now, waking up a few times during the night but waking up wide awake..

Would you have any suggestions regarding this?

Thanks,

Poopy - where does this stand in the new world order?Can I or Can't I reply?

Simmo39

tunney wrote: »

Poopy - where does this stand in the new world order?Can I or Can't I reply?

I'm not looking for medical advise or anything like that.. I'm just trying to get my head around the change in sleep pattern since i started back training. Thanks.

Dutchie

Stimulate, stress, recover, adapt, enhance.
Train don't drain, build don't break.

Gringo78

Dr Dave Martins Do-Do rule:
"It's not how much training you DO, rather, it's how well you recover from the training you DO DO. Because, if you get injured or sick from DOing too much, you are in deep DOO DOO."

rom

Do I get a prize for all the symptoms ?

finisklin

Timely digging up of this post. Hope someone can help. I took 9 days off in mid September due to work etc and built up my programme before hand in anticpation of the lay off. I subsequently returned and did my LSR, recovery run etc. However, I threw in a ten miler at PMP and the next day did another LSR of 17 miles. All within the space of 6 days.

Last week I felt very flat and my two PMP sessions I tanked, legs felt like lead and I had little energy. I was significantly over my PMP and it was killing me.

I know I can't recoup the time or the miles lost at this stage but even doing the schedule is challenging. I am working towards the DCM and a goal of a sub 3.30 but think this is unachievable due to my loss of form, rhythm, mojo etc.

I know I have to take some time off, reduce the schedule, eat and drink well but I feel overtrained as a result of my intense comeback. I started my programme back in June and have been committed to it 100%.

Any advice for a first marathoner?

tunney

finisklin wrote: »

Timely digging up of this post. Hope someone can help. I took 9 days off in mid September due to work etc and built up my programme before hand in anticpation of the lay off. I subsequently returned and did my LSR, recovery run etc. However, I threw in a ten miler at PMP and the next day did another LSR of 17 miles. All within the space of 6 days.

Last week I felt very flat and my two PMP sessions I tanked, legs felt like lead and I had little energy. I was significantly over my PMP and it was killing me.

I know I can't recoup the time or the miles lost at this stage but even doing the schedule is challenging. I am working towards the DCM and a goal of a sub 3.30 but think this is unachievable due to my loss of form, rhythm, mojo etc.

I know I have to take some time off, reduce the schedule, eat and drink well but I feel overtrained as a result of my intense comeback. I started my programme back in June and have been committed to it 100%.

Any advice for a first marathoner?

Its unlikely you could become overtrained in 6 days. More likely your legs suffered some damage and needed rest as you did more work that you could absorb. There is a difference between sore legs and overtrained. Sore legs - few days off, and some rolling and you are fine. Overtrained - weeks and months.

Take some time off, swim and/or cycle gently and get a massage.

thetonynator

tunney wrote: »

For me the signs of overtraining are:
* Reduced sex drive, if 30 minute after a ride you don't think you'd be up for the other kind of ride, thats a sign.
* Rest heart rate up
* Unable to get heart rate up when training
* Heart rate, PE, and power/pace out of whack
* Cravings for sugary foods
* Heart rate variablity drops and stays dropped
* Performances don't match expectations
* Lack of motivation
* Mood swings
* Crankiness
* Inability to sleep
* Constantly sore muscles
* Regular injuries

I suffer from these ones the whole time even if i'm not training.

rom

thetonynator wrote: »

I suffer from these ones the whole time even if i'm not training.

And a new found appreciation for reggae music ?

career_move

I thought I'd resurrect this thread .... some interesting posts here and I think overtraining is something that is easy to do whatever your abilities/experience.

Also like most injuries/illnesses the sooner it's spotted the quicker the recovery so I guess it's something all athletes should be aware of

hypersonic

Yeah some great posts above.
The thing I use is diet, if I can't/won't control my diet then I need to back off. I'm talking about eating the whole packet of biscuits in one go. This shows lack of motivation, sugar cravings, and poor mood.
I don't worry too much about the cause eg lack of sleep, work stress, training load and I just remind myself "you can't out train a bad diet".