REFEREE'S AND JUDGES

tyreman1

after all the contrevarsy around refereeing and judging, i think its time we got our sh*t together.....iv been involved in this sport 5 years now and im sickened at how unprofessional some aspects of the local scene are..
id love to see what people think....
i think its time a list of official referees and judges are put together...


any thoughts?
stephen

Mrs Lynch

Totally agree I think at one stage Aidy Marron drew up blueprint exam for both!!!

Probably be like the governing body debate not gona be in agreement which is sad for the small community that we have

Urs
x

manga_10

There's been talk about this for ages , though my view is that it should be preceded over like the Gaelic, rugby and soccer with a board and possibly qualifications such as level one coaching and stewarding and so on and so forth

tyreman1

maybe if fighters and coaches bycott shows that dont contract official staff as agreed by the community things might change...
im not saying one person decides who is capable, but we gotta do something about this..
we got a lot of clever, intelligent people involved on the scene.....id love to know what peoples ideas are

manga_10

sounds good , though who exactly would be on the board or committee. Guys that I think would be excellent would be the likes of David patterson , Rodney moore, John rosborough, urs and possibly urself

kainer2

tyreman1 wrote: »

maybe if fighters and coaches bycott shows that dont contract official staff as agreed by the community things might change...
im not saying one person decides who is capable, but we gotta do something about this..
we got a lot of clever, intelligent people involved on the scene.....id love to know what peoples ideas are

Would that community boycott events that don't record their results properly. Cos if that was the case their wouldn't be many shows to pick from (Just my 2 cents)

I'm not sure electing officials exclusivly from within a community is a great idea. E.g. what if you wanted to use foreign officials i.e Marc Goddard

tyreman1

this is another thing people should be open minded about....
judges dnt have to be fighters or coaches........ it comes down to reliable, intelligent, compitent people...
ive heard criticism about ms.lynch as a judge, as far as im concerned she probably qualifies more than most judges...
my reason for saying this is...she has been on the scene the last 6/7 years...gets to 80/90% of MMA events around the country and is a true ambassador for the sport here...
i think people should accept change and work together...we're selling ourselves short otherwise.....

manga_10

I agree ms lynch definitely knows where its at with regards to judging and stuff pity there are not more people like this within the community.

tyreman1

kainer2 wrote: »

Would that community boycott events that don't record their results properly. Cos if that was the case their wouldn't be many shows to pick from (Just my 2 cents)

I'm not sure electing officials exclusivly from within a community is a great idea. E.g. what if you wanted to use foreign officials i.e Marc Goddard

result recording is another issue, this is affecting results which in my opinion deserves more attention at present...i understand what your saying tho,
as for foriegn ref's, judges...
this can be a good thing as we can learn from experienced professionals but at the same time we also need qualified officals here on the ground week in week out
the MMA scene in ireland is still growing and i dont think small promotions could afford flights and accomadation for 3 foriegn refs and 3 foriegn judges aswell as cover their existing overheads
at the same time matbe a trip from marc goddard could open some doors for us!!!

John Ferguson

kainer2 wrote: »

Would that community boycott events that don't record their results properly.

Someone should start a thread to find out the standard things the community want to see at events............ Oh hold on!

Mrs Lynch

tyreman1 wrote: »

...............at the same time matbe a trip from marc goddard could open some doors for us!!!

Mayb gettin him over would help as I read years ago in magazine that he run Official Courses but dont think he does that now but at least wud be foundation for us.

Urs
x

manga_10

think this is what you're on about mrs lynch

http://fighthounds.com/mma/mma-referee-judges-seminar-by-marc-goddard/

Mrs Lynch

manga_10 wrote: »

think this is what you're on about mrs lynch

http://fighthounds.com/mma/mma-referee-judges-seminar-by-marc-goddard/

Thanks for that but it woz in Fighters Only Mag as I recall but still great to read this all the same and maybe help us out

Urs
x

David Jones

we got a lot of clever, intelligent people involved on the scene

Are you sure about that?

David patterson , Rodney moore,

People who are against the new rule set?

at the same time matbe a trip from marc goddard could open some doors for us!!!

Mayb gettin him over would help as I read years ago in magazine that he run Official Courses but dont think he does that now but at least wud be foundation for us.

I have decoded this sentence and....

Anyone can set up a course and run it for money. Hell maybe I will run one, and give out fake certificates to say that individuals are qualified to referee and judge. I am not too sure what puts Marc in the position to run courses etc He obviously has connections that put him in touch with the UFC organisation, something similar happened here when certain Irish fighters were put on the shows in Dublin and Belfast. Has he refereed more fights than the main referees in this country, no. Has he fought more times than the main referees in this country, no.

my reason for saying this is...she has been on the scene the last 6/7 years...gets to 80/90% of MMA events around the country and is a true ambassador for the sport here...

I have been around the "scene" as you put it since 1998. I have met countless individuals who have attended the vast majority of shows in this country. Many of them drunk at the majority of shows. Does that qualify them to be a judge?? Are you serious?

Common sense and a professional attitude can't be taught at a course, it’s something you develop through socialisation. (that isn't being drunk at fights by the way)

One of the main flaws in the UFC is that the judges are appointed by the Nevada State Athletic Commission. Many of who don't seem to actually know what they are looking at when it comes to an MMA fight. That shouldn't be the model for other organisations.

I give the sport another 10 years here, if its fate is to be decided by internet posters.

weemate

bring Marc over to run a course sure and show Peter and Dave how to do it properly............

thanks for that guys.Now I know why I dont come on this forum that often.

Barry.Oglesby

Honourable intentions on this topic Stephen but I don't think this debate can go anywhere. Some have a bugbear about results going on the web and some have it about the standard of cages and some have it about judges and some have it about weigh-ins and some have it about crowd control and some have it about the rules and some have it about supporters and some have it about dressing room space.

Each promotion, club, coach has their own thing or things that they want done better and that's fine, but these internet threads just become opportunities to either crib and dump on others or to give themselves a pat on the back to say how well they do it. It's already descending into that.

Given that we ALL do some things well and some things badly, I think there's 2 lists of what promotions need. List one I really care about. List 2 I'm just putting out there for an example and you can add whatever it is you like to it.

List 1- safety and fairness.
- ring/cage
- medical/ambulance
- referee/judges
- safe crowd facilities/security
- insurance
- matchmaking/weigh ins
- correct rulesets

List 2-
- matted dressing rooms
- an other
- food/water backstage
- dancing monkeys
- good PA system
- et. etc. etc.

Unfortunately, every constructive debate about List 1 descends into people just getting whatever they want off their chests about list 2. I don't think the second list should even be looked at until everything else is on order.

On another note, I am available to judge in Dublin most weekends, and available to sit at the judges table at any other show I have a fighter at once my fighters are done. Given that I don't have many active pro fighters in my stable, I could probably do the top half of most cards.

colinlaird000

Barry, While i would like to think that i have reasonable experience within the sporting aspect of MMA shows, I would appreciate some of the guys who run shows helping me understand a few points. I'm totally ignorant of what goes on behind the scenes, and would like to learn a bit more. In reference to list A:

- ring/cage
Is this no "standard" requirement for cage design / construction? Theres probably a generic design template somewhere, but from what ive seen they can be all sorts of dimensions.

- medical/ambulance
Most shows I've been to appear to have a doctor and a St Johns team. I assume that this is a requirement?

- referee/judges
How many refs do we have? Are they all qualified under the same body? The only ref I'm really familiar with is Peter (Sorry guys!)

- safe crowd facilities/security
Is this something that would be down to the venue of the event, deciding how many a venue can safely hold? Who organises stewards etc?

- insurance
know nothing about it within the sport, other than the insurance we pay to our clubs insurance company, and the waiver normally signed before fighting, so any info would be appreciated!

- matchmaking/weigh ins
Again, this is normally down to the promoter, with coaches agreeing on opponents. However, without naming any names, there have been plenty of guys fighting either way above or below their natural level. How can this be policed?

- correct rulesets
I'm not going to get into this and sound like a broken record. I don't know who has signed on to the new rules format. I'll try and bypass the whole Unified rule set > governing body > yada yada yada otherwise it'll be groundhog day on here.

Obviously this website is a talking shop and nothing more, but for my own personal understanding I would be genuinely interested in how these things are sorted out.

empacher

Although im just your average joe soap, Im going to give my views as an unbiased full time fan, and when I have the time MMA student.

As some people said MMA in Ireland Could possibly be under deputy and 'this is a worst case ' hypothetical situation but what if someone as rare as it was was to die in the cage, touch wood it never happens?

Now picture the people who investigate, not out diligent Gardai but the lawyers of insurance firms, and the victims family as well as reporters.

What will they find, Maybe some coaches aren't qualified to teach what they teach, Maybe the weigh ins weren't to scratch, maybe there was no drug testing, maybe the medicals weren't, right Maybe the judge and referees were qualified maybe not, Maybe somebody watched the other fighter wrap his hands maybe they didn't, was there an official time keeper, was the ring doctor a qualified ring doctor (there is a difference between boxing ring doctor and an mma ring doctor and those gloves certainly make a difference ) Was the shows insurance valid, Ive heard and this is hearsay that some people have insured there show as a kickboxing show not mma (I cant verify it, So don't take it as fact)

In the end you get possibly an outlawed sport, and a Joe Duffy field day where they will rip every gym you train, coach own to pieces looking for unsafe practices, every event from amateur to pro will be torn to pieces looking for flaws.


That's just my view on what could potentially destroy MMA in Ireland, Its not in anyway a dig in how things are run but its holding back MMA in Ireland and certainly preventing it becoming acceptable by all social classes.

cowzerp

I've been luck with the Rumble that the judging has always been solid and i have had no complaints of bad judging/refereeing, now in saying that im all for there been qualified judges, of course the qualification like Dave said will be made up but why cant we be the people to make it up?

Get a few of the experienced people we have, Andy Ryan, Dave Jones, John Kavanagh, Peter Lavery for example and run a course on the scoring system, make it open to many people so we have plenty of options for judging, we should have many judges in each area and not just 3-4 that will do all shows, if we dont do this then people have no right to moan if they do not want to do something positive about it, The main problem with MMA in Ireland is not Judging anyway. thats another days discussion!!

PS, Refereeing and Judging are not related either so been a ref is not guaranteed crieria for been a competent judge.

Also in many ways a person who has no background in a single art could be a better judge as most bad judging is when a striking judge or grappling judge over score the fighter who fights there favoured style, lets be real about this, BJJ orientated judges will always score grappling higher, as Boxing orientated will score Boxing higher.. This is where the main judging problem comes in.

Sid_Justice

being a fair and objective MMA judge is a very very tall order. I'd hate to have to judge a very close fight. I think you can do a coaching course in the weekend and just let guys go out and practice but with judging, you have to do more imo. E.g. get some obscure fights from the internet that were draws, get everyone to score them, make sure everyone is coming out with the same results etc.

cowzerp

In my opinion a judge should be picked by the promotion and there always open to criticism, if the judges dont perform then they should not be used again, untill there is a course made then thats how it is and will be.

I'd love if there was a course in the scoring but as of yet there is not.

David Jones

PS, Refereeing and Judging are not related either so been a ref is not guaranteed crieria for been a competent judge.

You are totally correct Paul they are different and there is no guarantee of competency. I do however think that all judges should be able to on request to step in and take a rules meeting before a show. They should be familiar with and able to explain all the rules that govern a fight. If necessary they should be able to demonstrate illegal techniques and the variations of those techniques. They are supposed to be knowledgeable of all aspects of whatever rule set is being used. How else can they be expected to judge on what they see?

Also in many ways a person who has no background in a single art could be a better judge as most bad judging is when a striking judge or grappling judge over score the fighter who fights there favoured style, lets be real about this, BJJ orientated judges will always score grappling higher, as Boxing orientated will score Boxing higher.. This is where the main judging problem comes in.

I am afraid I totally disagree. Judges are supposed to be impartial in their decisions, that means totally neutral about who is fighting, from what club and also what style of fighting is taking place. Scoring in MMA starts on the feet, EFFECTIVE STRIKING is the first criteria, if one fighter is totally dominating in this range you don't have to move to the next criteria, i.e. EFFECTIVE GRAPPLING The problem is this is not understood by most judges. How can someone with no background possibly assess what is effective in either case?? Yes they can watch a lot of MMA but the intricacies of something like the clinch or ground game would surely be clearer to someone who has actually trained and therefore is in a better position to decide what EFFECTIVE is.

Olympic diving Judges, Olympic Gymnastic Judges have been involved at some level in the sport to get where they are. These sports require a keen eye for detail and an appreciation of what is happening in front of them. It is not like calling a ball out in football or tennis for example. Like the former two examples the MMA judge must interpret what is going on in the cage/ring and accordingly apply the points system fairly and impartially. It is the interpretation and allocation of points based on this interpretation that is so poorly done in this country as a whole.

I would really like every coach who supplies fighters to question who is judging and what their relevant experience is (not how many shows they have watched and how much of a fan they are).

David Jones

This seems to be the widely acknowledged criteria of the Nevada State Athletic Commission with regard to judging.

VIII. JUDGES

A. No judge will have a financial interest in any fighter he judges.

B. No judge will be a manager/trainer of any fighter he judges.

C. In a bout goes to it's full time limit, the outcome will be decided by a majority decision of three, (3), MMAC judges.

D. A judge is accredited, sanctioned and selected based upon his character, experience, stature in the MMA world, knowledge of MMA systems and impartiality.

E. Judging Criteria
1. Judges are required to determine the winner of a bout that goes to it's full time limit based upon the following criteria:
-Clean Strikes
-Effective Grappling
-Octagon Control
-Effective Aggressiveness

F. Clean Strikes
1. The fighter who is landing both effective and efficient clean strikes.
2. There are two ways of measuring strikes:
-the total number of clean strikes landed (more efficient) -the total number of heavy strikes landed (more effective)

G. The heavier striker who lands with efficiency, deserves more credit from the Judges than total number landed.
1. If the striking power between the fighters was equal, then the total number landed would be used as the criteria.
2. The total number of strikes landed, should be of sufficient quantity favoring a fighter, to earn a winning round.

H. Strikes thrown from the top position of the guard, are generally heavier and more effective than those thrown from the back.
1. Thus a Judge shall recognize that effective strikes thrown from the top guard position are of "higher quality", than thrown from the bottom.
2. The Judge shall recognize that this is not always the case.
However, the vast majority of fighters prefer the top guard position to strike from. This is a strong indication of positional dominance for striking.

I. Effective Grappling
1. The Judge shall recognize the value of both the clean takedown and active guard position.
2. The Judge shall recognize that a fighter who is able to cleanly takedown his opponent, is effectively grappling.
3. A Judge shall recognize that a fighter on his back in an active guard position, can effectively grapple, through execution of repeated threatening attempts at submission and reversal resulting in continuous defense from the top fighter.
4. A Judge shall recognize that a fighter who maneuvers from guard to mount is effectively grappling.
5. A Judge shall recognize that the guard position alone shall be scored neutral or even, if none of the preceding situations were met.(items 2-4) 6. A Judge shall recognize that if the fighters remain in guard the majority of a round with neither fighter having an edge in clean striking or effective grappling, (items 2-4), the fighter who scored the clean takedown deserves the round.
7. A clean reversal is equal to a clean takedown in effective grappling

J. Octagon Control
1. The fighter who is dictating the pace, place and position of the fight.
2. A striker who fends off a grappler's takedown attempt to remain standing and effectively strike is octagon control.
3. A grappler who can takedown an effective standing striker to ground fight is octagon control.
4. The fighter on the ground who creates submission, mount or clean striking opportunities

K. Effective Aggressiveness
1. This simply means who is moving forward and finding success.(scoring) 2. Throwing a strike moving backwards is not as effective as a strike thrown moving forward.
3. Throwing strikes and not landing is not effective aggressiveness.
4. Moving forward and getting struck is not effective aggressiveness.
5. Shooting takedowns and getting countered and fended off is not effective aggressiveness.

L. Criteria Evaluation
1. Each judge is to evaluate which fighter was most effective. Thus striking and grappling skills are top priority.
2. Evaluating the criteria requires the use of a sliding scale. Fights can remain standing or grounded.
Judges shall recognize that it isn't how long the fighters are standing or grounded, as to the scoring the fighters achieve ,while in those positions.
3. If 90% of the round is grounded one fighter on top, then:
-effective grappling is weighed first.
-clean striking is weighed next. If clean strikes scored in the round, the Judge shall factor it in. Clean Striking can outweigh Effective Grappling while the fighters are grounded.
-octagon control is next (pace, place & position)

4. The same rational holds true if 90% of the round were standing. Thus:
-clean striking would be weighed first (fighter most effective) -clean grappling second (any takedowns or effective clinching) -octagon control which fighter maintained better position? Which fighter created the situations that led to effective strikes?

5. If a round was 50% standing and 50% on the ground, then:
-clean striking and effective grappling are weighed more equally.
-octagon control would be factored next

6. In all three hypothetical situations, effective aggressiveness is factored in last. It is the criteria of least importance. Since the definition calls for moving forward and scoring, it is imperative for the Judges to look at the scoring first.

7. Thus for all Judges scoring UFC fights, the prioritized order of evaluating criteria is:
-clean strikes and effective grappling are weighed first.
-octagon control
-effective aggressiveness

M. Domination Criteria
1. A Judge may determine that a fighter dominated his opponent in a round. This can lead to a two point or more difference on a Judge's scorecard.
2. The definition of a dominating round is a fighter's ability to effectively strike, grapple and control his opponent.
3. A Judge may determine a round was dominating if a fighter was adversely affected by one of the
following:
-knocked down from standing position by clean strike -by submission attempt -from a throw -from clean strikes either standing or grounded.

N. Judge's Scorecard Procedures
After each round:
1. each Judge will determine and record a score each round 2. a MMAC official will collect the scorecard after each round 3. the MMAC official will track and add each Judges score by round 4. If the fight goes the time limit, the MMAC official will add each Judge's scorecard and double check total 5. the fighter with the greater number of points wins the fight on each Judges scorecard 6. the fighter who won on the majority of the Judges Scorecards, wins the fight 7. the MMAC official will hand the decision to the PA announcer

O. Types of Judge's Decisions
1. If all three scorecards agree Unanimous 2. If two of three scorecards agree Split 3. Two scorecards agree and one draw Majority 4. two scorecards agree on draw Draw 5. all scorecards different Draw

IX SCORING SYSTEM

A. The MMAC and UFC have adopted a 10 point must system.
The Judge will use the criteria to determine a winner each round. The three step procedure per round is as follows:
-determine winner of round (can be draw) -determine if winner dominated round -fouls then factored in (subtract one point per foul from fighter)

B. Draws are again acceptable in MMAC events

C. Point Totals
1. two fighters who draw are given a score of 10-10 2. the fighter who wins a round is given a score of 10-9 3.The fighter who dominates a round is given a score of 10-8 (a score of 10-7 is possible for a dominant round) 4.For each foul a fighter commits, a point is subtracted. This deduction can change a winning round to a draw. 9-9

Looking at the above, how can you possibly tell me that it is right that someone with no background in MMA is the best option to judge MMA fights?? Just because the UFC have no control over who is appointed to their show does not mean we in Ireland should effectively ask the "audience" to judge.

empacher

That document does bring very valid points to the table, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herb_Dean then again Herb Dean arguably one of the most experienced refs in the sport was a lousy MMA fighter, I give him respect for stepping in, but he wasnt a great competitor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCarthy_%28mixed_martial_arts%29 Big John McCarthy the first ever UFC ref, never fought MMA his only tie was he got in with the gracies

As for judges all i can find is a bunch of hate threads on Cecil Peoples
who is easily the worst Judge and REF going.

So basically what im saying is to be a ref, is to be able to sick by your decision be logical and not panic when some guy takes a few shots, but be calm enough tnot to jump in early, Judging should definetly require some experience in combat sports




Maybe somebody should invite him over for a seminar?

cowzerp

David Jones wrote: »

Looking at the above, how can you possibly tell me that it is right that someone with no background in MMA is the best option to judge MMA fights?? Just because the UFC have no control over who is appointed to their show does not mean we in Ireland should effectively ask the "audience" to judge.

I think I badly explained myself-what I'm saying is a person who looks at Mma as a whole can be better than someone who IS biased to 1 range, I've seen more bad decisions due to bad judges who favour 1 area of Mma, like fights that have been 90% striking with 1 lad easy dominating and the 10% grappling domination wins the decision, same could apply either way in saying that and is Thd most common reason for bad decisions from the ufc right down to local level

bjj-fighter

empacher wrote: »

That document does bring very valid points to the table, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herb_Dean then again Herb Dean arguably one of the most experienced refs in the sport was a lousy MMA fighter, I give him respect for stepping in, but he wasnt a great competitor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCarthy_%28mixed_martial_arts%29 Big John McCarthy the first ever UFC ref, never fought MMA his only tie was he got in with the gracies

Herb Dean was still a fighter nonetheless and would've trained a hell of a lot, therefore he has a great understanding of the sport. The point about BJM being unqualified refereeing the 1st UFC is invalid because it was the first UFC so who could be qualified? Hid did have BJJ experience, but did he really need experience for the first UFC when there were not many rules.

I agree with Dave 100% on everything he has been saying about this. I think it is wrong if a judge has not had a lot of experience training and even fighting. A judge is a much more important position than can be given to someone as a 'favour' or any reason other than that they are highly qualified in MMA and are able to make an informed impartial decision.

Chris89

Was john mccarthy not meant to fight on the 1t ufc?? i heard that somewhere.

David Jones

Also in many ways a person who has no background in a single art could be a better judge as most bad judging is when a striking judge or grappling judge over score the fighter who fights there favoured style, lets be real about this, BJJ orientated judges will always score grappling higher, as Boxing orientated will score Boxing higher.. This is where the main judging problem comes in.

I have requoted you Paul because I read the above as a person who has no background in martial arts would be better placed to judge over someone who has??

What I am saying is that a competent judge is able to allocate points based on the criteria set down, and that an intelligent, professional and impartial person with a background in martial arts is more likely to be a capable judge, than an mma fan who watches a lot of fights and has never trained.

Raze_them_all

Chris89 wrote: »

Was john mccarthy not meant to fight on the 1t ufc?? i heard that somewhere.

he applied to be the jiu jitsu spot but Royce had it filled.

tyreman1

a lot of valid points, which is what we need lads.....
at the end of the day i love this sport and dedicate most of my time to training,coaching, promoting our gym and more importantly promoting the sport itself....
i think the feed back on this thread is a great start to taking the next step !!!!
just so i can clear one or two things, i think the active referees are doing a great job and the younger guys seem to be learning the ropes well from the older guys (sorry peter,dave) :D:D
i know dave and peter personally and i know they take everything they do professionally...
i still believe a fighter(retired or active) doesnt always make a good judge...THIS IS JUST MY OPINION
as cowzerp was saying why cant we have our own course that can be provided to people wanting to participate in judging and refereeing..obviously this wouldnt warrant you stepping into the cage to referee one week after completing the cousre !!!
i just think we really need to bang heads and come to some sort of compromise if we are to evolve here....
thanks for the feedback lads, i think the effort people are making to get their point across really shows how much we want the sport to thrive here...

once again thanks,
stephen

David Jones

i still believe a fighter(retired or active) doesnt always make a good judge...THIS IS JUST MY OPINION

Agreed, I don't think anyone has suggested that.

A good judge should be intelligent, impartial and competent. Unfortunately intelligence can't be taught, and the ability to be impartial stems from that intelligence. ( the individuals ability to determine between right and wrong, fair and unfair) I believe that competency which can be developed should come from having been a participant not necessarily a fighter at some level in martial arts, or preferably MMA.