Israel used 'excessive' force on Flotilla

cyberhog

On Friday Turkey released it's final report on the Flotilla raid. The Commission found that Israel used excessive force and they condemned the attack as unlawful. It doesn't look as though Turkish-Israeli relations are going to improve anytime soon.

ANKARA, Turkey (AP) — A Turkish committee investigating Israel's deadly raid on a Gaza-bound flotilla has refuted Israeli claims that its soldiers acted in self-defense, saying at least two activists were killed before commandos boarded the ship and another died "execution-style" as he lay injured.

...

"The force used was not justified, it was excessive," committee member Mithat Rende, a Foreign Ministry official, told reporters.

The report said Israeli soldiers fired live bullets from helicopters, killing two of the activists, even before they had rappelled on board. Five of the victims were killed from close range, it added.

Furkan Dogan, the 19-year-old Turkish-American, was lying wounded after being shot in the leg when he was kicked by two soldiers, who then shot him from close range "execution-style," according to the summary.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-11/turkish-inquiry-says-israel-used-excessive-force.html

dickwod1

Eh I didn't need the report to know Israel used " excessive force"
Do they ever use anything else?

Wolfe Tone

Its Israel, they don't care.

Manach

A neutral third party report would seem to have the more credibility than either the Israeli or Turkish ones. So the UN report stating that Israel's reaction to the flotilla did not meet international norms is the more damaging to that country.

hoorsmelt

Cue Israeli apologists in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...

Overheal

hoorsmelt wrote: »

Cue Israeli apologists in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4PGBSptYCI

Israel could get in on this I suppose?

dickwod1 wrote: »

Eh I didn't need the report to know Israel used " excessive force"
Do they ever use anything else?

Frankly even as much as Israel's reputation preceded them: Yes. Yes you did. It's the difference between evidence, law, and opinion.

wes

Well, no surprise from the Turkish report really, but I think what the UN said will carry more weight.

Having said that, in Turkey, the report will be damning, and will hurt relations with Israel in a big way. I have to wonder why Israel has essentially scored a huge own goal, but not apologising to Turkey, and putting the people behind the attack in jail. Seems rather pointless to lose an ally, due a rather pointless attack by the IDF. Israel often complains about being isolated in the region, but tbh Israel doesn't do itself any favours in that department.

Manic Moran

So the UN report stating that Israel's reaction to the flotilla did not meet international norms is the more damaging to that country.

I don't think so. The UNHCR is not the competent body for such adjudications, the official UN report into the incident is yet to be released. That one will carry a lot more weight. But even at that, Mr Wolfe Tone is quite correct. Will anyone care?

I'd like to read the report, but the Bloomberg article says that only a summary has been released to journalists thus far. At least the Israelis made the base document in its entireity public, though I'd have rather liked to have seen the supporting materials.

I have to wonder why Israel has essentially scored a huge own goal, but not apologising to Turkey, and putting the people behind the attack in jail

Apologising would indicate guilt. If the Israeli position is that they did not do anything wrong, they can't apologise. And if, under Israeli law, they didn't do anything wrong, the people who would put them on trial and into jail would be something like the International Criminal Court.

NTM

wes

Manic Moran wrote: »

Apologising would indicate guilt. If the Israeli position is that they did not do anything wrong, they can't apologise. And if, under Israeli law, they didn't do anything wrong, the people who would put them on trial and into jail would be something like the International Criminal Court.

Well, they have just pissed of an ally, in a region where they have so few, as the Turks clearly think there guilty, and tbh if I were a betting man, I would say there probably right.

Also, in all likelihood, Israel will reject any independent investigation, which will just annoy the Turks even more, and it will further cause relations to deteriorate. I simply do not understand, what Israel thinks they will gain with there position. They have few allies in the region, why piss one of them off, for 0 gain? Israels actions are looking more and more self destructive as time goes on. They seem to go out of there way to piss people off.

Manic Moran

Another activist, Cevdet Kiliclar, was killed with laser-guided weapons while taking photographs, the report said.

That had better be a translation error.

They have few allies in the region, why piss one of them off, for 0 gain?

I presume the Israelis consider the problem of Palestinians lobbing rockets into Israel to be of greater importance to Israel than staying on Turkey's (or anyone's) good side.

NTM

wes

Manic Moran wrote: »

I presume the Israelis consider the problem of Palestinians lobbing rockets into Israel to be of greater importance to Israel than staying on Turkey's (or anyone's) good side.

Not much of an answer there Manic at all, and tbh it smacks of whataboutery imho. If Israel wants to isolate everyone by going on killing spree's, then they have no one to blame but themselves.

Manic Moran

If Israel wants to isolate everyone by going on killing spree's, then they have no one to blame but themselves.

I think they know that, the point is that they have decided that they don't much care about being isolated. They consider themselves to have more pressing problems than, say, Turkish opinion. Ultimately, whether Israel is friends with Turkey doesn't have a huge amount of bearing on the Gaza Strip problem, be the solution military or political.

NTM

cyberhog

Manic Moran wrote: »

That had better be a translation error.

NTM

I guess what they meant to say was a rifle with a laser sight. As the final report is not available yet the following quote is from page 56 of the interim report released in September 2010.

Cevdet Kılıçlar, who was trying to take a photograph of the helicopter, was shot sniper-style from a distance right in the centre of his forehead, in manner which suggests a trained shooter fired at him.

http://dosyalar.hurriyet.com.tr/mavimarmara_rapor.pdf

On the link below at 39:40 you can see footage of a laser point on the deck which is clearly coming from above.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwsMJmvS0AY

A Dub in Glasgo

That never happened, everyone knows that the Turks were all armed terrorists who were after Israeli children and the Israelis were only in international waters observing when they were brually attacked by the Turks. Get with the programme!

wes

Manic Moran wrote: »

Ultimately, whether Israel is friends with Turkey doesn't have a huge amount of bearing on the Gaza Strip problem, be the solution military or political.

I would disagree, Turkey has been very helpful acting as a go between or Israel and other ME states, particularly Syria, where some of Hamas's exiled leadership resides. So Turkey could have been helpful in the case of Gaza.

For Israel to treat them the way they are is imho irrational and self destructive, and tbh most of there current actions would fall into that category.

Manic Moran

cyberhog wrote: »

I guess what they meant to say was a rifle with a laser sight. As the final report is not available yet the following quote is from page 56 of the interim report released in September 2010.

http://dosyalar.hurriyet.com.tr/mavimarmara_rapor.pdf

On the link below at 39:40 you can see footage of a laser point on the deck which is clearly coming from above.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwsMJmvS0AY

Seems fair, though I am somewhat curious to know (a) how the report concluded a laser aiming system was used in the case of Mr Kiliclar, (b) why they think it was a specially trained marksman as opposed to a trained soldier, and (c) why it matters to begin with. We'll see when they release the report, I guess.

If the implication is that he was shot by a marksman from a helicopter, I think the Turkish military should be challenged to put their best shot in a helicopter flown by their best pilot to try to recreate the shot. They are not the most stable firing platforms in the world (and yes, I've flown in Black Hawks), the way that the laser dot was bouncing around on the deck in the video should make that point.

Interestingly, in the 'Top Sniper' competition three years ago in the US, the Irish Army team won the 'Shooting from a helicopter' event. They'd never done it before, the fact that they won over more experienced teams (and by sending a lot of lead downrange, by the way) wasn't as much a case of practised skill as much as simply blind luck.

NTM

jank

Manic Moran wrote: »

I think they know that, the point is that they have decided that they don't much care about being isolated. They consider themselves to have more pressing problems than, say, Turkish opinion. Ultimately, whether Israel is friends with Turkey doesn't have a huge amount of bearing on the Gaza Strip problem, be the solution military or political.

NTM

TBH, those more pressing problems are a manifestation of Israeli failed policies of the last 40 years. It doesn't take a genius to realise that pushing an entire population of their land is going to cause resentment.

The solution to all this is very simple but the Israelis cant to that because then they wont have anymore enemies to blame everything on and also it will mean the end of a jewish Israel as we know it today.