Safe Standing Campaign

Dub13

I agree with this 100%,its been a couple of years since I sat at a game anyway.This is a very interesting video and well worth a look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ou8A9Jzeas

Dont be at yourself

Was at the Frankfurt - Leverkusen game yesterday. The entire lower tier behind the goal is standing, with barriers every few steps to stop surges. It was a cracking atmosphere, and there was no trouble. Beer was also served in the ground and at everyone's seat, with no ill effects.

The problems with Hillsborough were not caused by terracing, they were caused by terrible crowd control. If the modern ticketing, access and crowd control systems were applied to terracing, there would be no problems like there were in the past.

As a side effect, it would be a huge boost to clubs like Liverpool, Spurs etc who are struggling to viably expand the capacity of the stadium. It would also inevitably lead to cheaper tickets for the fans.

starbelgrade

Stands are much better than seats in my opinion, so it'd be nice to have the choice.

It's also easier to stay warm in the cold weather when you're not sitting down.

Lawrence1895

I used to have a season ticket in Dortmund's Westfalenstadion. The 'Suedtribuene' (South Stand) is the biggest standing area in Europe, I never witnessed any major trouble.

obliviousgrudge

I was at the Scotland V Northern Ireland game last week and everyone was standing, great atmosphere, and that was only with about 10 -15 thousand people in the AVIVA

PeteEd

^^^^

Was at it too, no one sat down during the game and was a great atmosphere even if we did get hammered:(

Officially they said 18,700 were at the game, but i'd question that.

Oat23

Lars1916 wrote: »

I used to have a season ticket in Dortmund's Westfalenstadion. The 'Suedtribuene' (South Stand) is the biggest standing area in Europe, I never witnessed any major trouble.

Never had any reported injuries according to a show I watched recently.

obliviousgrudge

PeteEd wrote: »

^^^^

Was at it too, no one sat down during the game and was a great atmosphere even if we did get hammered:(

Officially they said 18,700 were at the game, but i'd question that.

Well I was supporting Scotland so it wasn't too bad.

Were just on the halfway line, was a great view.

Stewards didnt do anything about it either

PeteEd

emmetmcl wrote: »

Well I was supporting Scotland so it wasn't too bad.

Were just on the halfway line, was a great view.

Stewards didnt do anything about it either

Might have been supporting different teams but at least we both agree that there was a great atmosphere inside the Aviva, nice to see a positive post regarding the match instead of the flame fueling that is going on elsewhere!

Hopefully 45,000 standing fans will enjoy the big one May

S.R.F.C.

PeteEd wrote: »

Hopefully 45,000 standing fans will enjoy the big one May

No chance.

Oat23

PeteEd wrote: »

Hopefully 45,000 standing fans will enjoy the big one May

Yeah, the Europa League final should be a good day out .

Lawrence1895

Oatesy23 wrote: »

Yeah, the Europa League final should be a good day out .

That would be Liverpool playing, just waiting for the opponent;)

therecklessone

I'm totally behind the safe standing movement and hope it gains serious traction in the coming years. I don 't think I've sat at an away game other than Bolton since I started going regularly.

Gavin "shels"

Is their a need for safe standing? If people want to stand they will. Putting safe standing in will force fans to stand, and tbh going from what I see in the English Premier League the majoritys mentality is to sit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdLKlHKzflc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKN1Pz5o8Tk

3hn2givr7mx1sc

I never realised the difference it atmosphere between sitting and standing.
At the United game there was a good atmosphere at the start, at the end and after goals etc. when everyone was standing, but it went dead when we sat down.

Dub13

Yes there is a big need for a safe standing area,people have been ejected from many a ground for standing.At the moment on the kop for example there are unofficial standing areas,this is great if you are aware off it but I have seen some touristy looking folk not happy/aware of it and then been forced to stand for a game.

Gavin "shels"

Dub13 wrote: »

Yes there is a big need for a safe standing area,people have been ejected from many a ground for standing.At the moment on the kop for example there are unofficial standing areas,this is great if you are aware off it but I have seen some touristy looking folk not happy/aware of it and then been forced to stand for a game.

People won't be ejected if there's enough of them. Look at the two videos I posted. Or as what happened in The Riverside, the Boro Ultras were told they had to sit and they boycotted home matches, think that's sorted now mind you and they can stand.

Screw the touristy looking folk tbh.

Dub13

Gavin shels wrote: »

People won't be ejected if there's enough of them. Look at the two videos I posted. Or as what happened in The Riverside, the Boro Ultras were told they had to sit and they boycotted home matches, think that's sorted now mind you and they can stand.

Screw the touristy looking folk tbh.

I see your point,basically the protest way to go is another element of the push but it will not be for everybody.This more 'official' drive is just another strand to the campaign.

applehunter

The introduction of the modern Curragh Road Stand in place of "The Shed" in Turners Cross has had a definite affect on the atmosphere at matches so much so that a lot of people have just given up coming to the Cross.

You can still stand up there but its not the same.

I'd be in favour of taking out the seats up there if it was possible. Not sure the MFA would be so accommodating though.

OPENROAD

Dub13 wrote: »

Yes there is a big need for a safe standing area,people have been ejected from many a ground for standing.At the moment on the kop for example there are unofficial standing areas,this is great if you are aware off it but I have seen some touristy looking folk not happy/aware of it and then been forced to stand for a game.

Must say I have never seen that, persistent standing maybe, but I have not witnessed persistent standing, people tend to stand when the ball reaches action areas, then people either sit down, or the stewards come along nicely to the front and tell people to sit down which they do.

Personally speaking I hope they never bring back standing.

Gavin "shels"

applehunter wrote: »

The introduction of the modern Curragh Road Stand in place of "The Shed" in Turners Cross has had a definite affect on the atmosphere at matches so much so that a lot of people have just given up coming to the Cross.

You can still stand up there but its not the same.

I'd be in favour of taking out the seats up there if it was possible. Not sure the MFA would be so accommodating though.

I think that says more about the fans rather than the stadium tbh.

SantryRed

OPENROAD wrote: »

Must say I have never seen that, persistent standing maybe, but I have not witnessed persistent standing, people tend to stand when the ball reaches action areas, then people either sit down, or the stewards come along nicely to the front and tell people to sit down which they do.

Have to admit, that absolutely wrecks my head. If I go to a game and I'm forced to sit down, I do not want to spend the 90 minutes having to stand up and sit down every fcuking time the team gets close to the goal. Fcuking grinds my gears.

Sgt Pepper 64

Wouldnt be the same without the electric fences.
Hope they bring them back too!

Paully D

Gavin shels wrote: »

People won't be ejected if there's enough of them. Look at the two videos I posted. Or as what happened in The Riverside, the Boro Ultras were told they had to sit and they boycotted home matches, think that's sorted now mind you and they can stand.

Screw the touristy looking folk tbh.

Considering their crowds in recent times, it looks like they've continued the boycott to be honest :pac:

darragh16

Weren't Man United fans given a smaller allocation at away games because the fans just stand the whole time? I know this was the case against Wigan and Bolton anyway.

applehunter

Gavin shels wrote: »

I think that says more about the fans rather than the stadium tbh.

Well it says people don't like change.

homerjay2005

darragh16 wrote: »

Weren't Man United fans given a smaller allocation at away games because the fans just stand the whole time? I know this was the case against Wigan and Bolton anyway.

it is sunderland, villa and boltong that have cut our allocations, which is baffling as their fans always stand at old trafford. ive been to 90% of united home games over the past 3 years and i can safely say, all away teams with the exception of popmy and wigan, have stood up for the entire game. so its really baffling as to why united get punished and no other clubs do, when they all do exactly the same. thing is, they know theres a good chance their ground will be full anyway when united are in town, so they can use any bulls*it excuse to cut the allocation and try give it to the home fans.

im defo in favour of safe standing, the strettie end is pretty much all standing anyway, the upper tier never sits down and the lower tier gets told to sit down only when the likes of wigan, bolton, blackburn are about, which again makes no sense.

atmosphere is definately better when people are standing up.

barryd09

homerjay2005 wrote: »

atmosphere is definately better when people are standing up.

x2

should be allowed at first in the quadrants of the grounds to test it out.
there has got to be enough people to fill 4 quadrants in old trafford who WANT to stand and sing and have the banter and good atmosphere and the rest of the stands can be seated.this would be a massive boost for atmopsheres in old trafford which are lacking at times.

Paully D

homerjay2005 wrote: »

it is sunderland, villa and boltong that have cut our allocations, which is baffling as their fans always stand at old trafford. ive been to 90% of united home games over the past 3 years and i can safely say, all away teams with the exception of popmy and wigan, have stood up for the entire game. so its really baffling as to why united get punished and no other clubs do, when they all do exactly the same. thing is, they know theres a good chance their ground will be full anyway when united are in town, so they can use any bulls*it excuse to cut the allocation and try give it to the home fans.

im defo in favour of safe standing, the strettie end is pretty much all standing anyway, the upper tier never sits down and the lower tier gets told to sit down only when the likes of wigan, bolton, blackburn are about, which again makes no sense.

atmosphere is definately better when people are standing up.

Yep, Sunderland have unfortunately reduced Manchester United's allocation. The club say it's because of persistent standing and you're right, our fans do always stand when we're away.

The thing is, Manchester United are one of two clubs that consistently bring a full allocation to Sunderland (Newcastle obviously being the other) and the safety officials have been on to Niall Quinn time and time again about the standing from those fans and have threatened to revoke our safety certificate, meaning that we wouldn't be able to compete in the Premier League. They're probably empty words, but the club has to be seen to take action.

Manchester United's away support is the best in the country (Sunderland are fairly close though , Newcastle too) and I love the ''all-for-one, one-for-all'' mentality that those Manchester United supporters have e.g, if a steward tried to take a fan down to the police there's not a chance it would be happening.

Anyway I'm ranting on a bit now but if it was up to me I'd be giving full allocations to whoever wanted them. It's the safety officials who are being twats about it, not the club itself.

Soby

If the Dubs can do it safely on Hill 16 anyone can :pac:

tommyhaas

Old thread I know, but Celtic are undertaking research into the feasibility of a safe standing area with a report apparently due early next year. Standing while illegal in England, is still legal in Scotland, though it is against SPL rules which the club could challenge depending on the findings of the study

I would imagine that the successful introduction of safe standing in Scotland would make it far more achievable in England

Personally I'd love to see safe standing. It improves the atmosphere no end, increases the number of tickets available and reduces the cost of them

Jelle1880

Oatesy23 wrote: »

Never had any reported injuries according to a show I watched recently.

Earlier this season (Or was it last season ?) a guy fell over the balcony.
But that could happen anywhere.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/jan/19/villa-park-terraces

The campaign for safe standing areas to be incorporated into top-level football grounds has received a major boost, after Aston Villa said they are examining introducing a standing section at Villa Park.
Paul Faulkner, Villa's chief executive, told a supporters' consultation group that he recognises fans want to stand, that safe standing areas could help improve the match atmosphere, allow for some cheaper ticket prices, and therefore attract younger supporters currently priced out by the cost of seats.
Faulkner has met the Football Supporters' Federation, which has long campaigned for a relaxation of the law compulsory requiring clubs in the top two divisions to have all-seating in their grounds.
Villa have become the first Premier League club to break publicly with the orthodoxy which has lasted two decades, that standing is too associated with football's bleak period in the 1980s ever to return.
Lord Justice Taylor recommended compulsory all-seating for all football grounds, later confined to the top two divisions, in his final report after the 1989 Hillsborough Disaster. His recommendation was opposed by the then Football Supporters Association, which pointed out that terracing itself had not been a cause of the disaster, which happened due to mismanagement of the FA Cup semi-final crowd by the South Yorkshire police, Sheffield Wednesday's negligently unsafe ground, and the fences at the front of the Leppings Lane terrace.
The FSA argued that grounds, including standing areas, should be made safe, and that if seating was made compulsory, the clubs would raise prices so substantially that long-standing supporters would be priced out.
Taylor rejected that, saying: "It should be possible to plan a price structure which suits the cheapest seats to the pockets of those at present paying to stand," citing the cost of standing at Rangers' Ibrox ground then, of £4. With cumulative inflation of 77.1% since, the price of that ticket at the beginning of this season would have been £7. Yet prices at the bigger Premier League clubs mostly start at a minimum £30 and go much higher than that. At Liverpool, whose supporters were the victims at Hillsborough, standing on the Kop cost £4 in 1989-90; the price for a seat this season at category A games is £45.
Politicians have been reluctant even to discuss standing at football, because of the association with Hillsborough, but last year the sports minister, Hugh Robertson, said he would look at the issue if presented with overwhelming agreement by the police and safety authorities. That remains a long way off, but the argument has shifted, with the authorities no longer able to argue that standing is in itself unsafe.
Awareness has grown of the standing areas in the German Bundesliga, between rails spaced closely enough to make a large crush physically impossible. The FSF points to the safety risk at Premier League grounds now, where many fans stand throughout matches, in seated areas not designed to accommodate standing.
One entrepreneurial supporter, Jon Darch, has been visiting clubs in the Championship, Premier League and Scotland with a sample Bundesliga-style rail structure, and says he has had an "enthusiastic response" from all clubs. The Liberal Democrat MP Don Foster, who has introduced a private members bill to remove the standing prohibition, is planning to bring Darch's exhibition to Parliament shortly.
Seating has never been compulsory in Scottish football, and last month the Scottish Premier League positively invited applications from clubs to introduce safe standing areas. All the SPL clubs, including Celtic and Rangers, have been positive about doing so, with Neil Doncaster, the SPL chief executive, saying: "I do expect to receive applications, including from Celtic and Rangers, as early as this summer, and the rail system has the most chance of being approved."
Peter Daykin, of the FSF, pointed to St Helens opening a new stadium for this 2012 Super League season, incorporating large standing areas, and said: "We hope football's status as a pariah sport is coming to an end. Our members have always been overwhelmingly in favour of safe standing areas."
A Premier League spokesman said it remains the league's position that stadiums should be all-seat, in line with government policy. "If Aston Villa want to explore safe standing and bring it forward as an issue, we welcome the debate around the table," he said.

Good to hear.

Neil3030

They'll be talking about it on Off the Ball in a few mins

RoryMac

Celtic & Rangers are looking to have standing areas on trial from next season, hopefully if there are no issues it will be rolled out to cover more of the stadiums after that.

everdead.ie

How many more fans would you be able to get in to a standing area that that you would fit in a seated area?

RoryMac

everdead.ie wrote: »

How many more fans would you be able to get in to a standing area that that you would fit in a seated area?

For the trial in the SPL there will be no increase in capacity but I believe the 'rail' terraces planned will allow for 3 people standing for every 2 seats.

tommyhaas

According to the safe standing group, the capacity could increase by a factor of 1.8, allowing for a reduction in ticket prices and an increase in revenue

Here and on the next page are a couple of examples of how clubs can increase capacity, increase revenue and make football more socially inclusive by simultaneously reducing prices.

The increase in capacity is created by adding a 'rear step' along each row (this runs underneath the seat when the seat is down, as shown in the images on the right) and accommodating two lines of standing fans, one on the front step, one on the rear, between each continuous, row-long rail.

The Green Guide currently permits 1.8 standing fans per space required for a seat. The sums are thus as follows:

Stadium A
Current capacity: 35,000

Two-tier stand behind each goal

Lower tier of the ‘home end’ (3,500 seats) converted to safe standing

A section of the ‘away end’ (1,750) converted to safe standing

Total seat spaces converted: 5,250 (15% of capacity)

Total standing spaces created: 9,450 (5,250 x 1.8)

Revised total capacity: 39,200 (+4,200, i.e. +12%)

Example seat price: £25

Example standing price: £18

Total gate receipt potential before: £875,000 per match / £17.5m per 20 games

Total gate receipt potential after: £913,850 per match / £18.25m per 20 games

Potential gate receipt increase per 20-game season: £750,000

Potential total extra revenue (incl. spend on drinks etc.): £1.4m

http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/the-proposal/the-proposal-continued---the-sums

I'd be in favour of this tbh once it's regulated properly.

Rarely sit in the Kop anytime I'm over anyway.

Guy:Incognito

tommyhaas wrote: »

According to the safe standing group, the capacity could increase by a factor of 1.8, allowing for a reduction in ticket prices and an increase in revenue

Just to clarify, thats increase is only in the areas converted, not a total capacity increase.

As for the price reduction, thats really just because you cant justfy charging someone the same price to stand as to sit, not as some sort of community outreach program. If they coudl get away with charging the same they would.

Neil3030 wrote: »

They'll be talking about it on Off the Ball in a few mins

I heard that and was it Eoin saying he was in the Westfalenstadion for the would cup semi and it was the best atmophere he's ever experienced? H
I got the impression he was using in a a pro standing way, but if was all seater for the internationals

tommyhaas

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Just to clarify, thats increase is only in the areas converted, not a total capacity increase.

As for the price reduction, thats really just because you cant justfy charging someone the same price to stand as to sit, not as some sort of community outreach program. If they coudl get away with charging the same they would.

Yea its only for the converted area, the overall factor would be dependent upon what percentage of the ground was converted

As for the price, I disagree. To put in the safe standing seats is three times the cost of the current seats, plus there's the cost of installation etc

Most fans want safe standing for the atmosphere, and I would imagine tickets would be far harder to come by, even at full price for the limited standing areas. Of course you can justify charging the full price as people are not being forced to stand, its merely an option to which many want to avail

You also have to factor in that in a ground that doesn't sell out every week, the attendance won't be far off what it currently is after the introduction of safe standing, so if tickets were cheaper, revenue would fall while the number of tickets sold remained the same

I think standing tickets will be cheaper, but not significantly cheaper. Personally I think they should charge the same price as the likelihood is they'll sell out the section, and reduce prices in other less desirable parts of the ground

Tiocfaidh Armani

Gavin shels wrote: »

Is their a need for safe standing? If people want to stand they will.

You've not had much experience of the Nazi stewarding in the UK. Stand are you're out on your backside. There's a need for this to cater who those who choose to stand. Celtic have been looking into this before all this, with the Green Brigade there's a big demand for it. If big enough our home homes will be rocking with a decent sized standing area.

Bring it on:)

Tiocfaidh Armani

RoryMac wrote: »

Celtic & Rangers are looking to have standing areas on trial from next season, hopefully if there are no issues it will be rolled out to cover more of the stadiums after that.

The only obstacle now is the police. The council are okay, the SPL are fine just those c*cks in blue.

Dempsey

I'd love to see the entire Jock Stein Lower as a standing area

Tiocfaidh Armani

Dempsey wrote: »

I'd love to see the entire Jock Stein Lower as a standing area

So would I, but that's where my season ticket is so I'm selfish:D

Dub13

Football League clubs vote to “explore” safe standing trials

More than two-thirds of the Football League’s 72 clubs voted in favour of a motion to explore safe standing trials at their annual general meeting in Portugal on Friday 7th June.

An unnamed club Chief Executive told The Independent’s Robin Scott-Elliot that the motion had “the will of the people” and he expected the Football League to start “lobbying in the right places”.

This follows last month’s news that Championship clubs had voted to back safe standing trials. 21 out of 22 Chief Executives present voted in favour of a motion to “encourage and support the instigation of a rail seat/safe-standing trial period at any League club”.

Clear message

Friday’s vote sends a clear message to the Board – the majority of Football League clubs back the exploration of safe standing trials and the Board has a mandate to implement that.

In addition to this six Premier League clubs officially back the Football Supporters’ Federation’s Safe Standing Campaign – Aston Villa, Cardiff City, Crystal Palace, Hull City, Sunderland, and Swansea City.

The Scottish Premier League are longtime backers of safe standing while West Ham United’s David Gold has also given his support in an interview with e-fanzine Blowing Bubbles.

“Safe standing in football stadiums will happen. I promise you it will happen. I’d be stunned if we don’t have some sort of safe standing experiment soon,” said Gold.

“I think, in five years, we will see safe standing at football stadiums because, let’s face it, it’s not very expensive to install and it’s safe, very safe.”

Last year the FSF asked fans to contact their MPs in support of Early Day Motion 573 which called for safe standing trials in football stadiums.

Many MPs backed the fans’ choice but some who opposed safe standing cited the Minister for Sport’s view that there was “no appetite to change the current policy” from the football authorities and clubs in the UK.

With the Football League, Scottish Premier League and one in every three Premier League clubs now backing safe standing trials (or their exploration), that argument looks increasingly shaky.

losthorizon

applehunter wrote: »

The introduction of the modern Curragh Road Stand in place of "The Shed" in Turners Cross has had a definite affect on the atmosphere at matches so much so that a lot of people have just given up coming to the Cross.

You can still stand up there but its not the same.

I'd be in favour of taking out the seats up there if it was possible. Not sure the MFA would be so accommodating though.

I think that's more to do with all thats gone on in the club over the last few years and the fact that we havent been so successful rather than standing areas to be honest.



Some of the best atmospheres I've experienced have been in all seated stadiums and the worst in grounds with standing areas. And back in the day grounds with only standing areas. Its the people attending who make the difference.