Mental Strength V Stupidity

ocnoc

Where is the line between been mentally toughness and been stupid?

Ex
Damage a muscle in a 2 day race... Start Day 2, push on and do more damage, or drop out, lick your wounds and return stronger?

Opinions.

donothoponpop

ocnoc wrote: »

Where is the line between been mentally toughness and been stupid?

Experience.

2009, Mount Leinster, tight muscles, pushing downhill past a road runner, had to take him with aplomb, pop, calf goes. Bravely, heroically, I continued hobbling, jogging, down the final 2k, ripping tendons further apart, to a "brave little warrior" finish, and 9 months sitting on the sidelines.

Now I know what pain to push through (mental toughness), and when doing so is stupid.

robinph

donothoponpop wrote: »

Now I know what pain to push through (mental toughness), and when doing so is stupid.

So you need to be stupid before you can be mentally tough.

liamo123

yep experience is the key but sometimes fortune favors the brave.....


I ran marathon No2 15 days after marathon No1.... Was strongly advised no to do it but ran it anyway....Between miles 15 and 20 I can safely say I was never physically or mentally so low in my life but eventually got second wind, finished strong and came away with 1min Pb...

Might sound silly but I learned an awful alot about myself that day and Ive taken that confidence into subsequent marathons...

Ive run also faster since but Dublin 09 will always b my most memorable marathon

ocnoc

donothoponpop wrote: »

Experience.

2009, Mount Leinster, tight muscles, pushing downhill past a road runner, had to take him with aplomb, pop, calf goes. Bravely, heroically, I continued hobbling, jogging, down the final 2k, ripping tendons further apart, to a "brave little warrior" finish, and 9 months sitting on the sidelines.

Now I know what pain to push through (mental toughness), and when doing so is stupid.

That my point exactly!!
You now know when its really serious... but what about that little niggle? Or your feeling unusually tired... will it go away once you warm up, will it get worse?

I've been in my fair share of injuries and been stupid and toughen it out - but the line appears to be very blurry....

But yourself in a relay (say WW for the craic, Boards have a 20min lead) and your calf goes pop... do you hobble on causing further damage or drop out and throw the relay?
Toughness or stupidity???

robinph

^ In a relay it is always stupidity. Unless your dead then you keep going.

donothoponpop

ocnoc wrote: »

That my point exactly!!
You now know when its really serious... but what about that little niggle? Or your feeling unusually tired... will it go away once you warm up, will it get worse?

I've been in my fair share of injuries and been stupid and toughen it out - but the line appears to be very blurry....

But yourself in a relay (say WW for the craic, Boards have a 20min lead) and your calf goes pop... do you hobble on causing further damage or drop out and throw the relay?
Toughness or stupidity???

A week ago I chased a fast lad down a technical downhill, going faster than I had gone before. He moved up a gear, I was stunned, I tried to chase... moving faster than I had even gone before, literally throwing caution to the wind, each footfall could lead to a twisted ankle or worse (two days before the same downhill that Enduro hurt himself on)... any pain or hurt was controlled. Not the same when a muscle is about to snap.

LOL at the WWR, even if we didn't have the lead I'd still hobble in, feck the damage. That's running for the team. We might get the chance to test this scenario n June...:D

BeepBeep67

donothoponpop wrote: »

LOL at the WWR, even if we didn't have the lead I'd still hobble in, feck the damage. That's running for the team. We might get the chance to test this scenario n June...:D

- taking one for the team

RacoonQueen

In some cases there is a thin line. When you've trained hard for something only to hit a snag near to D-day it takes serious consideration to decide which way you should go.

Only time, I feel I made the wrong decision was the Barcelona marathon last year. I was still far too ill to run, it was stupid and very, very risky given I have only a very light grasp on Spanish...

Mental strength is dragging yourself out in the lashing rain and high winds when you really want to sit in with tea and biscuits. Mental strength is dragging yourself out the door after a tough day in work. Mental strength is going out when you only had 2 hours sleep last night.

Stupidity is running when a muscle feels like it's hanging on by a thread and is swollen, or when you've spent the last 3 days in bed and decide going for an 8 mile run is a good idea, when every step you take is agony because of an injury, when you can't run an injury off after 3 miles.(3 miles is my limit, if it's still there persistently then the run ends, usually anyway :pac:)

The thin line comes when you're wrecked tired for the 6th day in a row and don't feel like going out. Do you suck it up and give it a whack, or do you take precautions and avoid the risk of overtraining/illness etc..

Oryx

The old saying is:

Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.

I always seem to know, deep down, the difference between stupidity and mental toughness, but ignore it anyway as Im still only learning.

Tough gets you to the end of a mountain race when you dont think youre able, it gets you thru the hard miles of a marathon, and makes you jump in cold rivers and swim when youd much rather sit and watch. You do actually need a certain level of stupid as well to commit to any endurance sport anyway, but everyone who does this stuff has moments when the commitment to train or succeed becomes a kind of self harm. You only ever learn from making the mistake once, you dont tend to repeat the same error again. But unfortunately experience is the only way to learn the difference or when to not ignore it.

shotgunmcos

I remember feeling very torn on this once. DCM09 my GF had developed bad shin splints in the run up. She had trained to try for a sub 4 and me being a 4hr pacer meant it was a sure thing Anyway the night before we went for a short jog in Pheonix park and she was in agony. I've never really had shin splints but mates have and I felt for her frustration. She slep on it and lined up regardless. She tried to convince me they were ok but a mile into the event I turned to see her wincing badly. I wanted to stop with her so badly but I had a job to do so got on with that. I came in on time and waited around fo a bit chatting with the sub 4 lot when up to the line she came in 4:14 tears streaming down her face. She was in agony. 26.2 miles with shin splints :eek: On one hand I was blown away by her mental fortitude and in another I was wondering how she could be so stupid. In the end I went with the mental strength.

Some people just have that HTFU characteristic and reining it back is the harder thing for them to do.

If it was just a training run and it was certainly going to put you out of your upcoming event, then I say its idiotic. However if you accept the price of running with a niggle on race day it may take even more mental strength to let your A goal go and revert to something else meaningful. If there is something meaningful in it, like you have raised a wad for charity then I struggle to call it stupid.

Caz's rational was that she really wanted the t-shirt. She had paid her money, done all the training and they didn't give you your t shirt in the goody bag! All that pain for one of those ugly DCM tees. That I couln't fathom

Mac Cormaic

Well I'm at present in that very dilemma. I came down last monday with a ankle injury, but want to run an ultra marathon over the wicklow mountains in six weeks haha

I have to get in at least one 26 mile run on a mountainous terrain if I want to stretch the legs and I'd need to do that at least two weeks before the race.

So the question is should I sit back and wait till I feel everything is a 100% safe which could be weeks/months, or do I still prepare psychologically for the race, and if I sense the injury is healed, go for it.

In a similar light I ran a marathon last July and the foot swelled up afterwards. I couldn't walk on it for two days, took one day rest then and then ran a five mile road race (the last in Ballycotton series).

I ran another marathon the week later a little slower, and the injury didn't pop up again. So personally I think it was mental strength that focused my mind and body to be fit enough to run again.

So I think often strength can outshine stupidity, with good results; but the key is to listen to those niggling voices within the body.

RacoonQueen

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Some people just have that HTFU characteristic and reining it back is the harder thing for them to do.

Caz's rational was that she really wanted the t-shirt. She had paid her money, done all the training and they didn't give you your t shirt in the goody bag! All that pain for one of those ugly DCM tees. That I couln't fathom

That's quite similar to my rationale. :pac: DCM 2009 I had my bike thing, knew that running hills would cause me hassle and sure enough after St. Laurences Road DCM as a race for me, was over. I wanted my t-shirt and my goody bag, I'd paid for them so I was going to make damn sure I got them. That 'injury' was all superficial tissue damage, sure it hurt, a lot physically and the mental torture of knowing what I'd worked hard for for months would come to nothing was agony too. It's nice to have something to show for all your training as well, I think it does make you stronger, it definitely did for me. If I'd dropped out I never would have had the confidence to go on to train for Barcelona.

On the other side, I couldn't run a step without being in agony for Edinburgh 2009, that injury was mechanical, running in Edinburgh would have been stupid.

seanynova

before my first marathon, i had read a lot about the demons in the head telling you to stop, slow down etc.....and at mile 20ish when i was feeling the pain in 25deg heat, i said to myself 'its only in the mind', 'keep going' - i ended up collapsing at mile 24 and had to recieve some attention from medics....not sure if i was being stupid carrying on at race pace, but i did try to have mental strenght and i paid the price!

ocnoc

marathon, marathon, marathon... interesting.
I'm getting a vibe that a marathon is the only place where stupidity/ mental toughness comes into it :rolleyes:

ecoli

ocnoc wrote: »

marathon, marathon, marathon... interesting.
I'm getting a vibe that a marathon is the only place where stupidity/ mental toughness comes into it :rolleyes:

Trust me its not:rolleyes:

Few years back injured myself on the thursday, rested till the sat, Sunday morning LOTS of deep freeze and away i went in a 1k hobbled around and had a sprint finish with a guy just not to get last. My next run was 3 months later in hindsight definitely stupidity

Mental toughness: Conquering your minds desire to stop
Stupidity: Ignoring your bodies pleas to stop

Having said that i have never DNF a race. Make sure to listen to the tell tale signs and if i have a niggle that will make it worse (injury as opposed to getting over sickness or something) i wont line up as it will serve no purpose in racing just for the sake of it

RacoonQueen

ocnoc wrote: »

marathon, marathon, marathon... interesting.
I'm getting a vibe that a marathon is the only place where stupidity/ mental toughness comes into it :rolleyes:

Or the majority of respondants so far have stories about marathons...maybe other people should contribute their stories too...

Oryx

ocnoc wrote: »

marathon, marathon, marathon... interesting.
I'm getting a vibe that a marathon is the only place where stupidity/ mental toughness comes into it :rolleyes:

Ive done one marathon. It required mental strength, but nothing like the amount I needed to cycle some of the stages of WAR. Or the ballbuster duathlon, where I thought cramp was going to tear a hamstring. Or to submerge under ice covered water in Tough Guy. All of that required mental nuttiness, and was totally stupid but not in a physical damage way. (Though I still have cuts and bruises from TG). I think the majority of posters here are multisport guys rather than marathoners?

huskerdu

ecoli wrote: »

Mental toughness: Conquering your minds desire to stop
Stupidity: Ignoring your bodies pleas to stop

I think that hits the nail on the head.

robinph

ocnoc wrote: »

marathon, marathon, marathon... interesting.
I'm getting a vibe that a marathon is the only place where stupidity/ mental toughness comes into it :rolleyes:

Nah. It's just that you have just have to fight against your head telling you to stop for longer in the marathon. Really, really wanted to stop on the second lap of an XC today, but as I only had another couple of miles to go I didn't need to resist the voices for quite as long. But your fighting against those voices for the whole of the last 6 miles of a marathon, or longer.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Ah memories of my A race in DCM10, motoring along nicely at my target pace and pull the ham at the halfway mark. Gutted at the thoughts of binning it and letting it go i of course hobbled the 2nd half in 3 hours. I done more damage to myself (probable minor tear to a grade 2) and looking back was certainly stupid and not mental strenght.

nerraw1111

I think ignoring your bodies pleas to stop requires mental toughness. It's deciding if their complaint is legitimate.

I haven't really figured the difference between what's stupid and what is tough. Bit like running with a hangover. It's only when you're at the side of the road puking that you decide it was stupid. Conversely I've done great tough sessions hungover.

But sometimes it require more mental toughness to stop than to continue.

ultraman1

ocnoc wrote: »

marathon, marathon, marathon... interesting.
I'm getting a vibe that a marathon is the only place where stupidity/ mental toughness comes into it :rolleyes:

and marriage

BeepBeep67

ultraman1 wrote: »

and marriage

It's probably easier to get divorced than not run a marathon you've entered!

Enduro

Great thread. Very very good question. And one I've encountered on far too many occasions to remember, between ultra running and expedition adventure racing.

For me it comes down to racing (and training) with intelligence. Mental toughness is a requirement to compete at any distance in any race. And by compete, I mean to give the best performance you're capable of, irrespective of time or position in the race. But intellegence also has an equally big role to play. There's no conflict between the two. Mental toughness gets you in a position to apply your intelligence. Stupidy (failure to apply intellegence) is just stupidy, irrespective of the amount of mental strength required to pull off the act of stupidity!

I think I could write for days on this subject, but that's the one paragraph summary.

Slogger Jogger

A 3 parter...

Picked up a groin injury before DCM 2010 but 'cos I was doing it for charity I felt I needed to complete it which I did. In doing so I was undoubtedly doing myself some damage. If I was running for myself I probably wouldn't have started.

2 weeks later, having not run once, I toed the line for Powerscourt Ridge. Its one of my favorite races and with no running for 2 weeks I reckoned I was well rested and probably healed. Ran decently and didn't suffer until the closing stages. Put it down to the severity of the race and was happy I took part.

2 weeks later (and this is probably a theme), I toed the line for the moonlight challenge, having ran very little after PR. I was looking forward to this because of the uniqueness of the event and again, I was sponsored to run so was happy to run. Ran well, but suffered in the closing stages.

Since then my groin injury has worsened to the stage where I can't run and walking brings soreness. Would I have changed anything? Difficult to say as hingsight is a great thing. I don't regret any of the runs I did. Its difficult to know at the time whether what you have is a niggle or something more serious, unless its an injury that you have experience with. Sometimes its relatively easy to put the pain to the back of the mind and still run well and finish.

When do you know its the time to stop?

helimachoptor

Had a football related decision. Playing a match in November and int he first sprint of the match i felt my hamstring go. Now it was very minor i could feel it and i could still run ok on it so i played on as we didnt have much on the bench that day.

A few weeks later my calf popped and i could barely stand on it and that we day we had nothing on the bench but off i went straighaway.

I think each persons knows their body and knows if its a niggle or if its something more serious. If in doubt drop out.