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Why do people want a "strong opposition"?

  • 10-02-2011 05:48PM
    #1
    vallo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 243 ✭✭


    Just reading a few threads here and have come across the same sentiment a few times.
    Some say that FG/Labour will be a useless govt because afterall they were a "very weak opposition".
    Other say that FF must not be annihilated because this country must have "a strong opposition".

    The way I see it is this.
    The government is formed by whatever combination of parties and independents that can agree to it - as long as they have a majority.
    The government TDs are kept in line by the whip system, and the independents are given enticements (which is why they were voted in in the first place) which ensure that the government will win all the votes, regardless of the calibre of the folks on the opposition benches.

    Can anyone give me examples (from the last 20 years say) of a case where a strong opposition effectively changed the course of the government?


Comments

  • #2
    RGDATA!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭RGDATA!


    vallo wrote: »
    Just reading a few threads here and have come across the same sentiment a few times.
    Some say that FG/Labour will be a useless govt because afterall they were a "very weak opposition".
    Other say that FF must not be annihilated because this country must have "a strong opposition".

    The way I see it is this.
    The government is formed by whatever combination of parties and independents that can agree to it - as long as they have a majority.
    The government TDs are kept in line by the whip system, and the independents are given enticements (which is why they were voted in in the first place) which ensure that the government will win all the votes, regardless of the calibre of the folks on the opposition benches.

    Can anyone give me examples (from the last 20 years say) of a case where a strong opposition effectively changed the course of the government?

    you could look at the Rainbow Coalition (early 90s) as one. FF were in coalition with Lab, but they left to go into govt with FG.

    many of the people who are saying they don't want to see FF annihilated because they want "strong opposition" etc are doing so because they would rather see the dominant opposition party as right of centre rather than left.

    The opposition do obviously get to speak, debate legislation and regularly question the Taoiseach, so even though the whip system means the govt will practically always have a majority, opposing voices are still heard both in the Dail and the media. It's not a powerless position because you have a voice that can be heard.


  • #3
    Suryavarman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭Suryavarman


    In the 1987-1989 Dail a Fianna Fail minority government was able to stay in power due to Fine Gael voting with the government on important economic policies.


  • #4
    vallo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 243 ✭✭vallo


    RGDATA! wrote: »
    you could look at the Rainbow Coalition (early 90s) as one. FF were in coalition with Lab, but they left to go into govt with FG.
    How is that good? It is just the opposition going into government.
    RGDATA! wrote: »
    many of the people who are saying they don't want to see FF annihilated because they want "strong opposition" etc are doing so because they would rather see the dominant opposition party as right of centre rather than left.
    That might just be giving them the warm fuzzy feeling of familiarity, but it is still meaningless.
    RGDATA! wrote: »
    ... It's not a powerless position because you have a voice that can be heard.
    But what is the point in having a voice in the Dail or on the TV shows if nothing happens as a result. Your party believes in a certain principle, makes lovely speeches but loses the vote. How is that power? Fintan O'Toole has more power by that definition.
    Suryavarman wrote: »
    In the 1987-1989 Dail a Fianna Fail minority government was able to stay in power due to Fine Gael voting with the government on important economic policies.
    Again that is completely different. By that definition, the last opposition would have been a good opposition if they voted with the government on issues. The Tallaght agreement you are referring to was where the opposition set aside party politics to back the government for the greater good.

    I started out thinking this whole "strong opposition" lark was something that just needed to be explained to me. Now I'm more convinced that it is yet another nonsense phrase that we toss around in political debate - but in the context of our political system it is totally meaningless.


  • #5
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    vallo wrote: »
    Other say that FF must not be annihilated because this country must have "a strong opposition".

    Ironically the same people who would criticise FG for not considering the idea of implementing FF policies with FF support......i.e. essentially NO opposition :rolleyes:


  • #6
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Ironically the same people who would criticise FG for not considering the idea of implementing FF policies with FF support......i.e. essentially NO opposition :rolleyes:

    Being in opposition is not just about opposing legislation.


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  • #7
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    Being in opposition is not just about opposing legislation.

    Never said it was.......the phrase used was "strong opposition"


  • #8
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Never said it was.......the phrase used was "strong opposition"

    Well strong opposition is about being constructive and engaging, something which was lacking particularly from Labour in the last Dáil.

    When opposition becomes opposing for the sake of opposing then no one listens to you when you do have genuine concerns


  • #9
    vallo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 243 ✭✭vallo


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    Well strong opposition is about being constructive and engaging, something which was lacking particularly from Labour in the last Dáil.

    When opposition becomes opposing for the sake of opposing then no one listens to you when you do have genuine concerns

    Still sounds very wishy washy to me.
    Can you give me an example of a case when we had a strong opposition and an effect of that?


  • #10
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,796 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Generically in the committie stage of a bill, the opposition have an opportunity to review and make suggestions to improve it.
    Also it is customary that the Finance(?) committie is chaired by a member of the opposition.


  • #11
    Suryavarman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭Suryavarman


    vallo wrote: »
    I started out thinking this whole "strong opposition" lark was something that just needed to be explained to me. Now I'm more convinced that it is yet another nonsense phrase that we toss around in political debate - but in the context of our political system it is totally meaningless.

    I was trying to give you an example of were the opposition had an effect on the decisions of the government.

    Personally I believe we can only have a strong opposition if we have a strong government in the first place. By this I mean a government that will take on board the criticisms and suggestions of the opposition and implement them into their own policy. In Ireland where pride and ego's take center stage I don't think we'll ever have a truly strong opposition. The best we can hope for is a party with the least bad policies being in charge!


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  • #12
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    Well strong opposition is about being constructive and engaging, something which was lacking particularly from Labour in the last Dáil.

    When opposition becomes opposing for the sake of opposing then no one listens to you when you do have genuine concerns

    I seem to remember some strong opposition re by-elections, votes of confidence and lies, but it didn't do us an ounce of good.


  • #13
    vallo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 243 ✭✭vallo


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    I seem to remember some strong opposition re by-elections, votes of confidence and lies, but it didn't do us an ounce of good.
    That is my point! Strong opposition is meaningless. Once the government have the numbers it is game over.
    We go to all this trouble with our PR system to ensure that the citizens get represented proportionately, but then 49% of our representatives remain powerless.


  • #14
    unit 1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 549 ✭✭✭unit 1


    Wanting to be a strong opposition means "please don't annihilate us at the polls, for ff anyway.
    In ff speak a weak opposition means no "good" ideas for the government to take on board. A weak opposition means "a consensus (that got us where we are:rolleyes:) that should have been challenged. A strong opposition is opposition for oppositions sake and is rejected and derided.
    In reality the opposition have no say, no power, no influence worth talking about, and are generally used as fodder by the ruling parties to feed to the media for a kicking when it suits them.
    A prime example of this being when Enda Kenny, yes Enda Kenny, told ff that benchmarking (which I benefited from) was a bad deal, and we could not afford it. He was derided for his strong opposition because he was leader of the weak oppositon- get my drift, opposition strength is a myth, it can be good or bad but only in hindsight.


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