Barrister & Solicitors legal aid fees

aleca · 10-02-2011 12:00pm #1

Hi, I will try to put this as simple is possible. A person is represented by Solicitor and barrister under Legal Aid. After the trial,the person found guilty and sentenced. Under the FOI we found the fees paid to the Solicitor and Barrister( which by the way were enormous and not jusified to the work they done).Is there any way that we could write and ask/demand Solicitor and Barrister to provide a breakdown of the work done for the case? What I would like is to corner them for been overpaid to the work done.Many thanks in advance.

a lawyer · 10-02-2011 12:09pm

are you just a generally annoyed taxpayer giving out about legal fees or did you have some connection with some of the parties to the case?

aleca · 10-02-2011 12:10pm

a lawyer wrote: »

are you just a generally annoyed taxpayer giving out about legal fees or did you have some connection with some of the parties to the case?

Both!:)

chopser · 10-02-2011 2:07pm

How do you know they were not justified in what they received?

I imagine that they did give a breakdown of the fees involved, to the body who was paying them the Department of Justice and Law Reform.
If you were paying them you would be entitled to a breakdown.

a lawyer · 10-02-2011 3:23pm

OP by any chance is your actual complaint with the verdict?

Reloc8 · 11-02-2011 10:22am

If a person is dissatisfied by the service provided by a barrister they should complain to the bar council. If a solicitor, go to the law society. The level of fee income is not relevant to this issue.

You can establish what the professionals were paid on the criminal legal aid scheme very easily - the rates for circuit and central criminal court are a matter of public record. You don't need to ask what the specific counsel/solicitor got, you just need to google (there was recent reportage in the irish times) or write to the department of justice asking what the fees in general for the kind of case that you are talking about was - i.e. I presume criminal defence in either the Circuit or Central Criminal Court.

The fact that you consider the fees to be enormous and unjustified is basically irrelevant. They were paid to provide a service at rates set by the system. They either did an acceptable or unacceptable job, and any issue you have should be raised with their professional body.

aleca · 11-02-2011 10:31am

chopser wrote: »

How do you know they were not justified in what they received?

I imagine that they did give a breakdown of the fees involved, to the body who was paying them the Department of Justice and Law Reform.
If you were paying them you would be entitled to a breakdown.

Hi, the answer is no.I will explain.When charged ,offered a list of solicitors.Chose one randomly.Over 3 years nothing really happend.A date was set for trial.1 month before trial I was preented to the Barrister who will represent in Court.Then,trial.Verdict-guilty.Sentence-prison. Under the FOI ,I send a request to find out how much was paid my solicitor and barrister.I got the answer.Now,I would like to know what exactly thay said they did for that money.My intention is to get a breakdown of work down and charged for from them.As I was represented by Legal Aid,noone did bother to ask or say to me anything.So?Any info?Please.Many thanks.

aleca · 11-02-2011 10:34am

Reloc8 wrote: »

If a person is dissatisfied by the service provided by a barrister they should complain to the bar council. If a solicitor, go to the law society. The level of fee income is not relevant to this issue.

You can establish what the professionals were paid on the criminal legal aid scheme very easily - the rates for circuit and central criminal court are a matter of public record. You don't need to ask what the specific counsel/solicitor got, you just need to google (there was recent reportage in the irish times) or write to the department of justice asking what the fees in general for the kind of case that you are talking about was - i.e. I presume criminal defence in either the Circuit or Central Criminal Court.

The fact that you consider the fees to be enormous and unjustified is basically irrelevant. They were paid to provide a service at rates set by the system. They either did an acceptable or unacceptable job, and any issue you have should be raised with their professional body.

Hi, see you are perfectly right.But me, I want to start from a diferent point.I want first to have "proof" of what they said they did,and paid for,and then I come with my complaint.

aleca · 11-02-2011 10:39am

I am sorry! How could that be irrelevant? If I get paid to do a job, if I dont do it right,what do you think is happening?I might loose my job! So, I think everybody should fulfill the tasks of his job.On how many jobs if you are not succesfull you are paid ,no matter what.And lets say this happening ,once,twice....But after a while you will be dismissed!

Reloc8 · 11-02-2011 10:47am

aleca wrote: »

Hi, see you are perfectly right.But me, I want to start from a diferent point.I want first to have "proof" of what they said they did,and paid for,and then I come with my complaint.

You don't need it. They acted in the case - its a matter of fact and record as to what they did. For criminal legal aid defence work a solicitor and counsel is paid a fee for appearing in court and doing any other associated necessary work by way of case preparation, written legal submissions etc. There is no discrete fee payable for those items, they are subsumed within the fee paid on appearing in court.

aleca wrote: »

I am sorry! How could that be irrelevant? If I get paid to do a job, if I dont do it right,what do you think is happening?I might loose my job! So, I think everybody should fulfill the tasks of his job.On how many jobs if you are not succesfull you are paid ,no matter what.And lets say this happening ,once,twice....But after a while you will be dismissed!

The fee issue is irrelevant because from the point of view of the client they can't recover that money. If you were badly served by a lawyer and paid fees the professional body could direct that the fees be returned, aside from any other sanction, and together with suing that person in negligence. As the client paid no fees in this case the return of fees is not available as such.

You seem to fail to appreciate that the point of central importance is whether the lawyers in question served the client acceptably. A lawyer who acts for someone in a court case must do so properly whether they are paid or not and that is what the professional body in question will focus on. It would be different perhaps if you paid a lawyer to do a certain task, and they took your money and then simply didn't do it.

In any event its been made clear to you as to how to go about getting the information you're looking for. It is widely accessible.

aleca · 11-02-2011 11:13am

chopser wrote: »

How do you know they were not justified in what they received?

I imagine that they did give a breakdown of the fees involved, to the body who was paying them the Department of Justice and Law Reform.
If you were paying them you would be entitled to a breakdown.

Hi, I am sure they did. Re your last sentence: they were paid through Legal Aid scheme,so I am wondering ,am I still entitled to found out?

11-02-2011 11:29am

aleca wrote: »

Hi, I am sure they did. Re your last sentence: they were paid through Legal Aid scheme,so I am wondering ,am I still entitled to found out?

Reloc8 has already pointed out that the fee is paid on a standardised basis. The government sets the fee and does not give a breakdown. How can the solicitor and barister then invent a breakdow that does not reflect the criteria used by the government.
If you are curious surely the easiest way is just to email the Dept of Justice and see what the say. It's not like the information is top secret.

Reloc8 · 11-02-2011 11:38am

chopser wrote: »

How do you know they were not justified in what they received?

I imagine that they did give a breakdown of the fees involved, to the body who was paying them the Department of Justice and Law Reform.
If you were paying them you would be entitled to a breakdown.

No, they didn't. Going by the OP it was pursuant to the criminal legal aid scheme. There is no question of a breakdown. Moreover, whether they were even paid or not is irrelevant in the case of a criminal defence, whether solicitor or barrister.

They either did an acceptable job within professional standards or not.

234 wrote: »

Reloc8 has already pointed out that the fee is paid on a standardised basis. The government sets the fee and does not give a breakdown. How can the solicitor and barister then invent a breakdow that does not reflect the criteria used by the government.
If you are curious surely the easiest way is just to email the Dept of Justice and see what the say. It's not like the information is top secret.

Exactly.

aleca · 11-02-2011 12:13pm

Hi, Thank you all very much.I might be wrong, but I did feel a reluctant reaction to my comments...I was only trying to get info from people with experience and knowledge.I didn't mean to upset anyone ,and if I did I apologise.I am only upset that sometimes in life you get into some situations ,arghhhhhhhhhhhhh,which dont define you at all as Homo Sapiens. I wish you all a good day and a very nice week end( by the way, a barrister got paid 25000 for be in court for 2 weeks and no matter how much you will try to tell me he did his job,I will stand up and say NO HE DIDN'T).:(

chopser · 11-02-2011 12:36pm

"There is no question of a breakdown".

So you are saying the solicitor and Barrister did not have to apply for their costs and account for meetings with the client, mileage travelling to and from court, attendance at court, first attendance, second and so on. dates of adjournments, hearing dates, witness expenses. medical/psychiatric reports, attendance at jail if applicable. etc.?

"They either did an acceptable job within professional standards or not".

I agree with this and you are right that is the matter that the op should be concerned with.

lawladdie · 11-02-2011 12:43pm

chopser wrote: »

"There is no question of a breakdown".

So you are saying the solicitor and Barrister did not have to apply for their costs and account for meetings with the client, mileage travelling to and from court, attendance at court, first attendance, second and so on. dates of adjournments, hearing dates, witness expenses. medical/psychiatric reports, attendance at jail if applicable. etc.?
h.

Surely this is right? I mean, they must have to give a bill to the Legal Aid Board based on what they've done? If the OP was to find that they were claiming for things that werent done that he would know about (like a meeting?), he must be able to go the Legal Aid Board about that?

No experience of this at all but that seems logical.

aleca · 11-02-2011 1:05pm

Hi again

. I do understand your point lawladdie and I want to ask something.If,I was a paying cosumer,shouldn't the legal team talk to me before any action?and if agreed on both sides,do you think they/or I would leave the fees undiscussed?What I say is, they did ( 90% of the time ) what they want.I am sorry to be so vague in details,but it is a lot to talk,and I dont know if people would like to know it..
But I do appreciate any comment,is much better than be ignored!

blueythebear · 11-02-2011 1:38pm

lawladdie wrote: »

Surely this is right? I mean, they must have to give a bill to the Legal Aid Board based on what they've done? If the OP was to find that they were claiming for things that werent done that he would know about (like a meeting?), he must be able to go the Legal Aid Board about that?

No experience of this at all but that seems logical.

Each Court appearance would have a standard fee charge under legal aid. The fees are fixed under the legal aid scheme. Solicitor and barrister get a fixed fee for the first appearance and a fixed fee for each day in court thereafter. A Barrister for 2 weeks at 25k is cheap compared to what it would cost when not on the private scheme (presuming the trial went on for two weeks).

No bill is submitted per se. Every appearance is signed off on a docket by the Court Registrar who confirms that the persons on the docket attended court that day, i.e. solicitor and barrister(s). The dockets go to legal aid board and the fee is paid.

You can't claim for some items like meetings with the client although you can claim for prison visits if required. THese have to be signed off by the prison to say that you did attend.

The OP is obviously unsatisfied with the job done by the legal team in question. As has been said before, the appropriate places to complain are the Law Society and the Bar Council. It is irrelevant to him how much was paid, as the State paid the legal team, not him.

11-02-2011 2:05pm

lawladdie wrote: »

Surely this is right? I mean, they must have to give a bill to the Legal Aid Board based on what they've done? If the OP was to find that they were claiming for things that werent done that he would know about (like a meeting?), he must be able to go the Legal Aid Board about that?

No experience of this at all but that seems logical.

The point is that the solicitors and barristers to not set the bill. They can register with the Legal Aid Baord to act as representatives to those who get legal aid. The board pays everybody a standard fee that is set by the government. The lawyer cannot argue for a higher fee or take a smaller one (well they probably could if they felt like trying). Lawyers are aware that when signing up to legal aid that the fee is on a take it or leave it basis. They have no say in how much they get paid.

Reloc8 · 11-02-2011 2:16pm

lawladdie wrote: »

Surely this is right? I mean, they must have to give a bill to the Legal Aid Board based on what they've done? If the OP was to find that they were claiming for things that werent done that he would know about (like a meeting?), he must be able to go the Legal Aid Board about that?

No.

No its not right.

No its not surely right.

No they didn't give a bill to the Legal Aid Board.

No they don't get paid for meetings.

No its nothing to do with the Legal Aid Board.

Criminal Legal Aid in the Circuit, Central and other Criminal Courts is operated in a specific manner which has already been described.

lawladdie wrote: »

No experience of this at all but that seems logical.

I'm not trying to be rude, but if you have no experience of this at all then why would you put something out there as what must surely be right ?

aleca wrote: »

Hi again . I do understand your point lawladdie and I want to ask something.If,I was a paying cosumer,shouldn't the legal team talk to me before any action?and if agreed on both sides,do you think they/or I would leave the fees undiscussed?What I say is, they did ( 90% of the time ) what they want.I am sorry to be so vague in details,but it is a lot to talk,and I dont know if people would like to know it..
But I do appreciate any comment,is much better than be ignored!

Lawladdie is wrong.

Your lawyers must act for you properly and in accordance with professional standards. If you believe they did not stop wasting your time on here (you can't discuss a specific case of this nature), and don't bother trying to find out what they were paid under the legal aid scheme (although that won't take long and can be done precisely as already described so if you want to, go ahead) and go and put in complaints to the Bar Council of Ireland (for barristers) and the Incorporated Law Society (for solicitors).

aleca · 11-02-2011 3:22pm

Thank you all very much,and wish a very nice weekend!

dats_right · 11-02-2011 11:53pm

aleca wrote: »

) Is there any way that we could write and ask/demand Solicitor and Barrister to provide a breakdown of the work done for the case? What I would like is to corner them for been overpaid to the work done.Many thanks in advance.

Am I missing something? You didn't pay them a penny, what on earth makes you think you can "corner them for being overpaid"?! I mean if I had a medical card I think it would be a bit rich to start complaining about how much my GP or pharmacist got paid by the State when I didn't contribute a penny myself. The same principle applies here.

Frankly, in my view, I really don't see what business it is of yours what your lawyers were paid by a generous benefactor (The State) on your behalf. I mean fair enough if you had retained a legal team privately and you were paying from your own pocket, but that's not the case here. Of course you were absolutely entitled to the same level of service as a private paying client and I would never suggest otherwise, but not question the fees when you haven't paid a penny towards same.

aleca · 14-02-2011 8:51am

dats_right wrote: »

Am I missing something? You didn't pay them a penny, what on earth makes you think you can "corner them for being overpaid"?! I mean if I had a medical card I think it would be a bit rich to start complaining about how much my GP or pharmacist got paid by the State when I didn't contribute a penny myself. The same principle applies here.

Frankly, in my view, I really don't see what business it is of yours what your lawyers were paid by a generous benefactor (The State) on your behalf. I mean fair enough if you had retained a legal team privately and you were paying from your own pocket, but that's not the case here. Of course you were absolutely entitled to the same level of service as a private paying client and I would never suggest otherwise, but not question the fees when you haven't paid a penny towards same.

Hi,I perfectly understand your point.When you say" you didnt contribute a penny"..well..see I do....Contribute thousands of "pennies" every single year..Should I count what the rest of the family is contributing??? Thousands as well...And ,no! I dont complain about that.Everybody who is working is paying a lot...And I am paying for every single service that I get! GP,or if I would get into trouble,do you think I would benefit of a free legal advice because I am working over 20 years on full time basis! No, I wont be entitled to anything..Only to pension if I live that long

.Or if I go sick, the hospital would be free?No way!...And than,I come across that,and people think" why is she complaining,she didnt paid a penny" But I did! anyway,it is sad that I did not myself understood...Sorry to the people I bothered...

Barrister & Solicitors legal aid fees

Comments