Budget Fixes which Political Parties aren't mentioning

Fussgangerzone

There could well be hundreds of ideas, old and new, that for whatever reason, aren't being proposed by political parties as ways to increase our public finances.

What idea to raise funds comes to your mind, and why do you think it hasn't been proposed?

Fussgangerzone

First, an old one.

Legalise and tax cannabis. I don't smoke it myself, and I'm not of the "free the weed" persuasion. But here's what I've seen.

1. Policing cannabis costs a lot of money
2. Cannabis use isn't healthy, but, based on "normal" use isn't remarkably better or worse than drink and cigarettes. So it can be said to fall within social limits of acceptable damage.
3. Over the last few years cannabis has under gone a literal sea change, where production is no longer geared towards imported resin, but has moved overwhelmingly to domestically grown plant buds.
4. I have never met anybody who abstains for fear of the law. It has always been a lack of interest in the drug.

I think if we legalised the drug we could avail of the following benefits.

1. Duty. Tax it in a similar manner to cigarettes.
2. Jobs. We would have a new legitimate industry.
3. Trade. A black market would become a market.
4. Quality control. Typical health and safety controls could be put in place, protecting the customers. (Marginal, if any benefit)
5. Law and order. Garda efforts could be focused on more pressing needs.

Why do I think nobody has proposed it: Moral Outrage. The tabloids and perhaps the church would make sure lots of people get good and confused and angry, and could collapse any party putting this forward.

later12

Sovereign bonds aimed at modest savers in the domestic market operated via the banking system, on five year and ten year paper, and whose coupon earnings would be tax free. Schemes like this exist in Italy, and are quite successful.

Currently, Irish investors who wish to invest in Irish sovereign bonds must compete with international funds and do so while paying Irish tax on their return, the market also tends to be pretty exclusive and is seen as inaccessible. It doesn't make sense to me that the people who have the most to gain in expressing confidence in Ireland must find it so cumbersome to do so.

Fussgangerzone

later10 wrote: »

Sovereign bonds aimed at modest savers in the domestic market operated via the banking system, on five year and ten year paper, and whose coupon earnings would be tax free. Schemes like this exist in Italy, and are quite successful.

That could work, people went mad for the SSIAs. I wonder though, would it be a bit of a balancing act between keeping the state afloat and keeping money in circulation. I don't know much about economics, now, but maybe there's an optimal balance between getting enough money into the exchequer to cancel out interest on debts, at the very least, and having enough money spent on goods and services to keep people in work.

Whiskeyjack

Fussgangerzone wrote: »

First, an old one.

Legalise and tax cannabis. I don't smoke it myself, and I'm not of the "free the weed" persuasion. But here's what I've seen.

1. Policing cannabis costs a lot of money
2. Cannabis use isn't healthy, but, based on "normal" use isn't remarkably better or worse than drink and cigarettes. So it can be said to fall within social limits of acceptable damage.
3. Over the last few years cannabis has under gone a literal sea change, where production is no longer geared towards imported resin, but has moved overwhelmingly to domestically grown plant buds.
4. I have never met anybody who abstains for fear of the law. It has always been a lack of interest in the drug.

I think if we legalised the drug we could avail of the following benefits.

1. Duty. Tax it in a similar manner to cigarettes.
2. Jobs. We would have a new legitimate industry.
3. Trade. A black market would become a market.
4. Quality control. Typical health and safety controls could be put in place, protecting the customers. (Marginal, if any benefit)
5. Law and order. Garda efforts could be focused on more pressing needs.

Why do I think nobody has proposed it: Moral Outrage. The tabloids and perhaps the church would make sure lots of people get good and confused and angry, and could collapse any party putting this forward.

There are a few more practical reasons. Firstly no country wants to become a haven for people who deal drugs illegally in other countries. Plus while you mention that policing cannabis costs a lot of money, I'd imagine policing our borders against it leaving the country would be equally expensive. I'm fully in favour of de-criminalising posession, but I don't believe full-blown legalisation is practical.

Secondly there are plenty of taxable products out there and introducing a new one will make little difference, the problem is that people don't have much disposable income which is part of a much larger economic issue.

Fussgangerzone

Whiskeyjack wrote: »

There are a few more practical reasons. Firstly no country wants to become a haven for people who deal drugs illegally in other countries. Plus while you mention that policing cannabis costs a lot of money, I'd imagine policing our borders against it leaving the country would be equally expensive. I'm fully in favour of de-criminalising posession, but I don't believe full-blown legalisation is practical.

Secondly there are plenty of taxable products out there and introducing a new one will make little difference, the problem is that people don't have much disposable income which is part of a much larger economic issue.

I see your point on border control, etc. I'm pretty in the dark about how much law enforcement time is pent on stopping drugs leaving a country. The impression I have is that it's mostly left up to other countries to stop drugs going in, and if they have a problem with something we've legalsied, it's exactly that, their problem. We don't spend money stopping people bringing whiskey to strict muslim countries. There could be diplomatic repercussion. The Netherlands seem to do ok though, although their laws around cannabis are crazy, the supply side is effectively criminal.

With your second point, you're missing something obvious. People are already spending money on cannabis. The problem is that it then becomes black market money, undeclared and untaxed. It's purely my opinion but I don't believe legalisation would have a big long-term effect on consumption, though I could imagine an initial "honeymoon period".

P. Breathnach

later10 wrote: »

Sovereign bonds aimed at modest savers in the domestic market operated via the banking system, on five year and ten year paper, and whose coupon earnings would be tax free. Schemes like this exist in Italy, and are quite successful.

Currently, Irish investors who wish to invest in Irish sovereign bonds must compete with international funds and do so while paying Irish tax on their return, the market also tends to be pretty exclusive and is seen as inaccessible. It doesn't make sense to me that the people who have the most to gain in expressing confidence in Ireland must find it so cumbersome to do so.

We do have a number of products that come close to the idea -- Savings Bonds, Savings Certificates, and National Solidarity Bonds (two types). But they all have the same limitation, in that early encashment is effectively penalised. If the products were transferable, a market could emerge and people would not have to take a hit for early encashment.

cleremy jarkson

In my opinion, the elephant in the room is the state pension. People over 65 have less outgoings than people half their age, get quite a number of "freebies" that allow their pension to stretch much further and because of deflation, are the only group of society to be better off now than in 2008. I don't have the link, but I read before that a 10 euro a week cut will save over 300 million in one year. I don't consider myself to be a callous person, but I think the pensioners need to make a contribution like the rest of society, because at the moment everybody else is shouldering the burden of the cuts they aren't taking. If we want to get Ireland back on it's feet I propose that the pensioners are cut 20 a week in the next budget and another 20 in the following budget, and their benefits trimmed a bit. If my own grandmother represents a typical pensioner, she is well able to afford a cut of that magnitude to her non-contributory pension.

MonkieSocks

cleremy jarkson wrote: »

I don't consider myself to be a callous person, but I think the pensioners need to make a contribution like the rest of society, .

They have already paid their dues for all the years they worked.

Many of these pensioners started work at 14 years old and have worked for over 50 years to get their pension. They deserve to be left alone.

RichardAnd

MonkieSocks wrote: »

They have already paid their dues for all the years they worked.

Many of these pensioners started work at 14 years old and have worked for over 50 years to get their pension. They deserve to be left alone.

I agree. Pensioners have paid their dues and should be left to live out their final years in peace and quiet. IF any cuts are made to pensions, they should be miniscule. After all, there are thousands of people on the dole who have never worked a days in their life, cut their payments.

cleremy jarkson

MonkieSocks wrote: »

They have already paid their dues for all the years they worked.

Many of these pensioners started work at 14 years old and have worked for over 50 years to get their pension. They deserve to be left alone.

40 year olds and 50 year olds who have worked for over 20 and 30 years respectively and who now find themselves on the dole don't deserve to be cut either, but everyone needs to make as big a contribution as they can to get out of this, the alternative is not having any money to run the state in a year or two. Many self employed people in their thirties, forties and fifties have provided employment and paid tax for years and now find themselves in dire straits because they aren't entitled to benefits when their business fails.. as individuals who provided citizens of the state with employment, they are at least as deserving of favourable treatment by the government as the pensioners are.

And yes RichardAnd, in an ideal society we could use common sense to discriminate amongst social welfare recipients who have no intention of working and who milk the system for all they can get, and those who hate being unemployed and want to work...but we don't live an ideal society and we don't have the resources to separate both groups from one another and give the payment-undeserving unemployed less money than the payment-deserving unemployed. If we could give the career welfare recipients less, I would be all for it.

P. Breathnach

MonkieSocks wrote: »

... Many of these pensioners started work at 14 years old and have worked for over 50 years to get their pension. They deserve to be left alone.

Speaking as a pensioner, I disagree. Why should I be advantaged over others?

RichardAnd

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Speaking as a pensioner, I disagree. Why should I be advantaged over others?

That's a very noble point of view. If we had more people like you, we'd be alot better off today.

MonkieSocks

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Speaking as a pensioner, I disagree. Why should I be advantaged over others?

As I don't know who you are and what your Financial postition is, I take it you were not reckless with your money.
I congratulate you on this.

You can give donations to someone like CASA who do great work looking after people in difficult circumstances.

But there a lot of pensioners out who have just got crippling Gas heating bills.

I have seen their bills some for over €450 for a two month period.

I have a lot of pensioners on my road, I've done odd jobs for them in my spare time.

Only cost to them is if they need parts that I can't salvage out of skips.

As it's my spare time I don't ask for any money off them.

And in all my dealings with pensioners, I have never heard a single on of them saying the would up so much as a single cent


Moving on
This was proposed by R.J.Cloughley D6 last August to Comical Lenny.

Stamp duty on share transactions should be doubled from the low rate of 1% on Irish and 0.5% on Foreign shares.

This proposal would have produced €250 Million extra revenue in 2011 and more in future years.

It was ignored and all the less vulnerable had to pay the cost.

The suggestion could have produced 20% of the extra tax of €1.3Billion that Lenny sought in his budget.

Perhaps the incoming Government might take note and alleviate the burden it has placed on the people on the bottom pile.