Who should healthcare professionals be voting for on the 25th?

bluewall

As a current medical student, I'm very interested to know the opinions of other health care professional's on where our votes should be going in the upcoming general election on the 25th?

Things are clearly in an awful state at the moment and the scope for change and improvement by any political party will probably be negligible at best, but the votes have to go somewhere, so where do we need to put them to give ourselves any chance of a better future as health care professionals?

No intention of opening a can of worms here, but I just thought it might be a good way for people to offer opinions and inform students and professionals alike in order to make better voting decisions.

PS - as is a common theme in many of the other threads in this section, please avoid any advice involving "leave the country and go to another health system" as that is another discussion entirely.

chanste

As unpopular as this may sound I think I'm still going to vote Fianna Fail on the basis that it's better the devil you know.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think they are in any way decent at running the government. But my opinions of other partys run even lower.

These are just a summary of my thoughts on other partys:

Labour are all things to all people and frankly I don't believe them. Somethings gotta give and they refuse to tell us what.

Fine Gael would be my 2nd choice after Fianna Fail. My reasoning for this is that Fianna Fail spent the last few months trying to run government without a strong leader with his partys support and it doesn't work. I don't think Enda kenny has long left as he is immensely unpopular. If he went I'd probably give them my vote.

Left Alliance. I think this is where any simpleton who has been screaming "tax the rich" and "Jail the bankers" are gonna run. They are populist and in my opinion detached from the reality of economics amongst other things.

Sinn Fein: As above. With the added bonus they take up arms when they don't get what they want.

Greens will undoubtedly be wiped out.

Independents. There are possibly a few really decent guys running none of which I know anything about because they don't individually acquire a lot of press from what I can see. In any case I think if independents gain places in government it usually results in them holding up bigger plans until they get some kind of ransom.

As regards health specifically, I think no matter who you vote for health is still going to be fairly screwed for a long time to come. Fianna Fail would no doubt continue with the HSE while others will either wind it down or make much grander changes to it in either case the effect won't be seen for years.

For the record I'm under no illusions that Fianna Fail will be decimated as a party and there is no hope of anybody going into a coalition with whatever is left.

Vorsprung

Sadly I'm not in a position to vote this time around.

Like Chanste I'm not a fan of Labour.

Unlike Chanste I'm not a fan of Fianna Fáil. They have been in charge for the last 14 years. While we may rank higher in European tables, the situation on the ground is another matter. I last worked at home in early 2009, but I had patients waiting in acute hospital beds for long term care beds for months on end. I had one guy who was waiting for 1.5 years for a bed in a specialised unit (due to lack of funding, not lack of a bedspace in the institution). Staff have been treated like dirt - obviously close to home is the NCHD issue. Poor management has led to many of my colleagues leaving the country, and the buck stops with the government (not the head of the HSE, as Harney has claimed in the context of other issues). I've read some recent comments from Barry Andrews on healthcare policy, and I'm not that inspired to be honest.

Fine Gael would get my vote. I know Enda is no shining light, but as the analogy goes, Alex Ferguson wasn't a great football player, but he's a good manager. I'm in favour of single tier healthcare, in terms of the equality of the system, and FG's plan has a good degree of vision to it. Reilly was a GP himself, and involved in the IMO so he has a good grasp for how things are on the ground. He speaks with a lot of sense on current healthcare issues, which is something I don't find forthcoming from some of the other candidates.

Sid_Justice

Does anyone have any commments on this chappie

http://www.healthreform-now.com/MedicalTraining.htm

he's in my constituency and i can't tell if he's a loony or not

Vorsprung

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Does anyone have any commments on this chappie

http://www.healthreform-now.com/MedicalTraining.htm

he's in my constituency and i can't tell if he's a loony or not

I find that all a bit odd. Few things from this guy's site:

Minimum age of entry into medical school will be set at 21-25 years years.

Why? Has this been shown to make a better doctor? Lots of people in my class (including myself) were 18-20 going into college (some younger actually). Some people were very well suited to the pressures of the job after graduation, some weren't. Age had nothing to do with it.

Applicants will be encouraged to undertake primary degrees in the Arts and Humanities with particular emphasis upon Philosophy and Classical studies, thus making for more enlightened well rounded and humanistic medical personnel.

I don't understand this suggestion. Is it not enough to want doctors who can treat people on the basis of making decisions based on best evidence. Do we need them to be able to recite passages from the Iliad too?

The role and function of the medical student shall be changed to be more in keeping with that of an apprenticeship, whereby the medical student becomes part of their relevant hospital team, assisting in the care and management of patients rather than simply using patients as 'learning tools'

Yea I agree to a point but at the end of the day medical students are there to learn, and seeing as many patients as you can is the best way to do it. Those who take initiative to spend time with the team will undoubtedly benefit, but Intern year gives you the management skills you need, and in my opinion it works. I shudder to think that someone might get elected on to Dáil Éireann on the basis of a commitment to changing the teaching schedule of a few hundred third level students.

Internships for all new graduate medical students shall be extended to two years with an initial year divided into 6 months surgical rotation followed by 6 months medical rotation, followed by 1 year A&E rotation. Following this the Junior doctor will complete three to four training years in their chosen speciality area and will then be offered a contracted post within the hospital setting as a HBS. It is recognised that in some highly specialised HBS posts may require longer periods of training and allowances will be made in this regard.

If anyone thinks that ANY doctor can be fully trained in a speciality found within an acute hospital setting, they're nuts.

HBS will be appraised by their 'trainees' (medical students and medical graduates) at the end of respective rotations and HBS's shall be eligible for salary or pensionable bonuses based in part upon the appraisals of trainee staff and patient satisfaction surveys.

I loled.

100 pack year man with lower limb arterial stents, a history of them clogging up, with absolutely no intention to quit: Vascular Surgeon, what do you mean you're not going to operate

Vascular Surgeon: There's no point, you've repeatedly shown that you have no intention to quit smoking. The treatment for your lower limb arterial disease is useless if you don't want to quit smoking. Do you want to quit smoking?

100 pack year man: Give up smoking?! I love me John Players!! No way!

Vascular Surgeon - Then I'm not operating. Intern, get this man a script for his usual meds.

100 pack year man - You bastard!

So this guy is saying the above Vascular Surgeon would have his renumeration reduced because of poor patient satisfaction? Such as the above (which I've seen happen with my own eyes, and it has stuck with me!). Ich don't think so.

EDIT - And before anyone hops on me, yes, there are lots of doctors out there who are dicks, I'll be the first to admit that. Many would get poor patient satisfaction reports as suggested by this guy. But should people be paid based on satisfaction? Should this proposal be extended to all those working on the frontline of public services? Nurses, Gardaí? Politicians?!

imported_guy

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Does anyone have any commments on this chappie

http://www.healthreform-now.com/MedicalTraining.htm

he's in my constituency and i can't tell if he's a loony or not

i agree with alot of his points,

CHILDREN aged 17 should not be becoming "medical students" alot of them have no idea what they want to do with their lives, but they have the CAO points (which means they can learn off a bunch of books) and do a bunch of exams which are all very predictable. end of. look at america, canada and australia (for the most part) medical education is at the graduate level.

also agree with the bit that basically says doctors should be paid based on how good they are, we're not commies, we live in a free market society, one should be remunerated based on skill/quality of service.

disagree with how he wants to train people, lol why would i wanna waste 6 months doing a surg rotation and a year doing A&E if i wanna become an infectious disease specialist or specialise in endocrine?

overall hes got my vote though.

Vorsprung

imported_guy wrote: »

disagree with how he wants to train people, lol why would i wanna waste 6 months doing a surg rotation and a year doing A&E if i wanna become an infectious disease specialist or specialise in endocrine?

Can you give us a quick list of surgical conditions that can present like infectious diseases? Can you also give me a list of ways in which Type 1 diabetes can present? Can you tell me that there are no ID patients out there with surgical conditions?! Half the ID ward in my hospitals consists of Ortho/Plastics patients!!

LOLing at 6/12 experience in Surgery?! Come off it.

tallaght01

Vorsprung wrote: »

I find that all a bit odd. Few things from this guy's site:



Why? Has this been shown to make a better doctor? Lots of people in my class (including myself) were 18-20 going into college (some younger actually). Some people were very well suited to the pressures of the job after graduation, some weren't. Age had nothing to do with it.



I don't understand this suggestion. Is it not enough to want doctors who can treat people on the basis of making decisions based on best evidence. Do we need them to be able to recite passages from the Iliad too?



Yea I agree to a point but at the end of the day medical students are there to learn, and seeing as many patients as you can is the best way to do it. Those who take initiative to spend time with the team will undoubtedly benefit, but Intern year gives you the management skills you need, and in my opinion it works. I shudder to think that someone might get elected on to Dáil Éireann on the basis of a commitment to changing the teaching schedule of a few hundred third level students.



If anyone thinks that ANY doctor can be fully trained in a speciality found within an acute hospital setting, they're nuts.



I loled.

100 pack year man with lower limb arterial stents, a history of them clogging up, with absolutely no intention to quit: Vascular Surgeon, what do you mean you're not going to operate

Vascular Surgeon: There's no point, you've repeatedly shown that you have no intention to quit smoking. The treatment for your lower limb arterial disease is useless if you don't want to quit smoking. Do you want to quit smoking?

100 pack year man: Give up smoking?! I love me John Players!! No way!

Vascular Surgeon - Then I'm not operating. Intern, get this man a script for his usual meds.

100 pack year man - You bastard!

So this guy is saying the above Vascular Surgeon would have his renumeration reduced because of poor patient satisfaction? Such as the above (which I've seen happen with my own eyes, and it has stuck with me!). Ich don't think so.

EDIT - And before anyone hops on me, yes, there are lots of doctors out there who are dicks, I'll be the first to admit that. Many would get poor patient satisfaction reports as suggested by this guy. But should people be paid based on satisfaction? Should this proposal be extended to all those working on the frontline of public services? Nurses, Gardaí? Politicians?!

Spot on, the guy is deluded.

imported_guy wrote: »

i agree with alot of his points,

CHILDREN aged 17 should not be becoming "medical students" alot of them have no idea what they want to do with their lives, but they have the CAO points (which means they can learn off a bunch of books) and do a bunch of exams which are all very predictable. end of. look at america, canada and australia (for the most part) medical education is at the graduate level.

also agree with the bit that basically says doctors should be paid based on how good they are, we're not commies, we live in a free market society, one should be remunerated based on skill/quality of service.

disagree with how he wants to train people, lol why would i wanna waste 6 months doing a surg rotation and a year doing A&E if i wanna become an infectious disease specialist or specialise in endocrine?

overall hes got my vote though.

Clueless as usual.

whadabouchasir

imported_guy wrote: »

CHILDREN aged 17 should not be becoming "medical students" alot of them have no idea what they want to do with their lives, but they have the CAO points (which means they can learn off a bunch of books) and do a bunch of exams which are all very predictable. end of. look at america, canada and australia (for the most part) medical education is at the graduate level.

So basically we should stop people that want to do medicine and are perfectly capable of doing medicine because you think that they are too young.So it would be a better idea to force people to do a pointless primary degree just to give them some life experience?and while we're at it why don't we cripple them with debt?If someone finds out that they don't like the course then they'll drop out,simple as.

imported_guy wrote: »

disagree with how he wants to train people, lol why would i wanna waste 6 months doing a surg rotation and a year doing A&E if i wanna become an infectious disease specialist or specialise in endocrine?

Great idea!Now I'm going to go to my physiology lecturer and tell her that i'm not doing the CVS module anymore because I don't want to be a Cardiologist.

Sid_Justice

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Does anyone have any commments on this chappie

http://www.healthreform-now.com/MedicalTraining.htm

he's in my constituency and i can't tell if he's a loony or not

he's not running anymore he didn't submit his intention properly

bluewall

Well it looks as though Fine Gael are now in the clear, one way or another.

One thing is for sure is that they won't be getting my vote. Dr. James Reilly is a crook and Kenny is a fool, backed up by the fact he's declined near all opportunities be interviewed or answer questions to the the public.

I cannot see the 'fair care' system that they want to bring in doing anything other than draining funds and wasting time, leaving both patients and health workers at a loss. At the end of the day, it's based on a dutch health care model that is increasing in cost yearly and has no evidence that it actually works - it is less than 5 years in place. More short sighted plans.

I'd nearly rather not vote because they're all as bad as each other frankly but in my mind I think FF are worth a vote, just so they can offer some substance as decent opposition to the new government.

2Scoops

bluewall wrote: »

Dr. James Reilly is a crook ...

Can I ask is this just a general impression or based on a specific incident(s)? I'm genuinely curious to know any goss about the probable next health minister...

bluewall

2Scoops wrote: »

Can I ask is this just a general impression or based on a specific incident(s)? I'm genuinely curious to know any goss about the probable next health minister...

FYI I have pasted below an excerpt of an Irish Indo article on TD's earnings outside of politics.

When I refer to Reilly as a crook, I mean it in the sense that he is a sell out to his medical colleagues.
The implementation of the dutch style 'fair care' model, although we don't know a lot about it because FG have been quite vague on the intricate details e.g. where the doctors stand, it is likely to be to the detriment of the doctors.

Imagine you are a GP that owns your own practice. Imagine FG get voted in and begin to implement their fair care health reform over x number of years. This plan offers wider and cheaper access to GP's services. Imagine that FG dictate the price you charge for your services as a GP. Imagine it is considerably less than it used to be and you have practice overheads, a mortgage and a family to feed. Who the hell are FG to tell anyone how to run their business?? Who are they to tell you what to charge for your services that you offer, disregarding your years of education, extra courses, membership fees and specialisation?

As far as James Reilly is concerned, no worries, his main income doesn't come as a GP anymore (granted it wouldn't anyway as he is a TD but you see my point). He can use these reforms to win his cheap votes from the honest voting public. No loss to himself, sure he's grand, income from nursing homes, property rental, supermarkets. His medical colleagues? Probably making less of a living on FG's fair care model.

Now in fairness, we don't know for sure how FG's plans are going to affect the doctor because they tell us nothing. What is certain though, is that they have not consulted any doctors on this reform - apart from his good-self Reilly - on his magic carpet of altruism and healthcare ideals.

All I know is that unless this reform is mutually beneficial for all involved it is going to be met with a lot of resistance from the GP's - leading to disputes, strikes, delays, waiting lists etc etc. Ultimately leading to the patient losing out as usual.

Irish independent 6th June 2010 - TD's top up their pay with rental income

"On the opposition benches, Dr James Reilly and Alan Shatter top the Fine Gael leader board.

As well as almost 240 acres over various farms and plots of land in north Dublin, Meath and Offaly, Dr Reilly has a holiday home at the Doonbeg five-star golf and spa resort in Clare.

In addition to his quarter-share of a nursing home in Tipperary, he would see a sizeable monthly rent roll from the block of surgery rooms, offices, shops, a supermarket, a restaurant and apartments he owns in Lusk, north Co Dublin"

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/tds-top-up-their-pay-with-rental-income-2209703.html

opinion guy

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Does anyone have any commments on this chappie

http://www.healthreform-now.com/MedicalTraining.htm

he's in my constituency and i can't tell if he's a loony or not

These changes are ridiculous. They would cost lots of money and fix none of the problems

upforit101

bluewall wrote: »

Well it looks as though Fine Gael are now in the clear, one way or another.

One thing is for sure is that they won't be getting my vote. Dr. James Reilly is a crook and Kenny is a fool, backed up by the fact he's declined near all opportunities be interviewed or answer questions to the the public.

I cannot see the 'fair care' system that they want to bring in doing anything other than draining funds and wasting time, leaving both patients and health workers at a loss. At the end of the day, it's based on a dutch health care model that is increasing in cost yearly and has no evidence that it actually works - it is less than 5 years in place. More short sighted plans.

I'd nearly rather not vote because they're all as bad as each other frankly but in my mind I think FF are worth a vote, just so they can offer some substance as decent opposition to the new government.

Reilly seems to be intent on treating GP practice almost completely as a business and treating Healthcare as a business is bad news for patients and practitioners alike. I'm amazed how the media haven't really picked up on how his master plan for rolling out health centers everywhere conveniently happens to synergistically fit with his own wealth building enterprise in Lusk - conflict of interest or what?

With regard to the Dutch model FG are proposing; Why can't we have the French model instead?
Oh that's right if we implemented ther French model a certain TD from Lusk & protagonist of the Dutch model wouldn't make loads of money for himself!

Reilly = Harney with a beard

Vote independent.

bleg

I'm going to vote Green then accordingly to keep a certain independent in my constituency out and trying to put the labour candidate in, not cause I like Labour but because I don't want a FG overall majority. Their 5 point plan is naive and poorly planned.