monster cow= too much silage!

defadman

have lovely lmxbb cow at home. shes top quality and been producing show quality calves.However i have noticed this year she is eating incredible amounts of silage. does anyone else have this situation. woul i be better to go into smaller cows.. would they be more profitable?

Bizzum

Some of the cows at home are big big cows, inc one particularly huge ped Ch cow, but they are all housed together, big and small, so it's hard to say if one or other gets the lions share!
I do notice that rank within the pecking order depends more on age than size. Anyone else notice this?
For me if a cow is a good producer, ie. Calves easily, top quality calf, enough milk, and back in calf easily. She's a keeper, no matter what she eats.

just do it

defadman wrote: »

have lovely lmxbb cow at home. shes top quality and been producing show quality calves.However i have noticed this year she is eating incredible amounts of silage. does anyone else have this situation. woul i be better to go into smaller cows.. would they be more profitable?

That what Justin would have you do;)

As Bizzum points out though, there are alot of variables to take into account. If the calves are that good, are they making enough of a premium to cover the extra feeding costs?

If you want to get into smaller cows, rather than getting out of her just don't use any of her progeny as replacements. Hold her and keep producing those quality calves until she can't produce them no more.

Thats my tupence worth anyway...

Bodacious

Bizzum wrote: »

Some of the cows at home are big big cows, inc one particularly huge ped Ch cow, but they are all housed together, big and small, so it's hard to say if one or other gets the lions share!
I do notice that rank within the pecking order depends more on age than size. Anyone else notice this?

Yes i've noticed that age always pulls rank over size, have one great old not very big cow, getting rickety even(>20 years) and physically no match for bigger younger ones and they will all start the shoving but none will breathe next to her, the roll of the eye is enough

just do it

Bodacious wrote: »

Yes i've noticed that age always pulls rank over size, have one great old not very big cow, getting rickety even(>20 years) and physically no match for bigger younger ones and they will all start the shoving but none will breathe next to her, the roll of the eye is enough

Yeah respect for your elders! Something we seem to have lost during the celtic tiger years.

Here's a way to find out the hierarchy in your herd. Shut off your water supply and feed them water once a day. Now take note who drinks first and who has to wait. Sound familiar?! I bet it goes pretty much from oldest to youngest;)

pakalasa

There's a strong social pecking order there alright. Ever noticed when feeding meal in a trough, that the head animal, cow or weanling even, will not touch theirs, but guard the couple of feet under them. It's their way od asserting themselves over the rest. No other cow would dare take it from them.
I usually spread it down the trough. Drives them mad.:D

blue5000

Hi OP

just after feedin silage the other day I noticed 12 black cows per column eating their grub, next column had a few big bitches with horns, bbx and blondes, but only 7 cows.

Bodacious

just do it wrote: »

Yeah respect for your elders! Something we seem to have lost during the celtic tiger years.

Here's a way to find out the hierarchy in your herd. Shut off your water supply and feed them water once a day. Now take note who drinks first and who has to wait. Sound familiar?! I bet it goes pretty much from oldest to youngest;)

they dont half get into it though when establishing hierarchy:mad: had two separated last year and younger submissive one had calf in mean time and they nearly wrecked the place, such a bit of belting... young cow beat her over and over but as Summer wore on the one that was dominant before got braver and even still when she sees her she gives a rattle, only a year between them so i suppose its a close call!!

Muckit

OP

You raise a good point. Big continental bred beef cows do eat alot of silage, and meal and grass for that matter.

I supppose when you focus on acheving one particular goal, you have to compromise on other things. Alot of suckler farmers in recent years, have focused on producing bigger and more shapely weanlings. This necessitates having a bigger cow.

There's a saying thats often thrown out, 'it costs as much to feed a bad cow, as a good one', but what about the difference betwwen a 'small cow' and a 'big' one?! :rolleyes: How many farmers or 'advisors' know how much each individual cow they have is eating and therefore costing them??

A farmer saying that 'I don't know, and I care less' just isn't good enough IMO. Afterall if your to get a TRUE figure for the net margin left from each 'suckler unit' (cow/calf combo) per year, you need to know your inputs so you can cost them.

Getting the biggest price at the local mart for your weanlings is no true indication of how much your left with in your pocket at the end of the year. Your cow is still at home eating grass/silage/meal. She might as well have her gob in your pocket. The bigger the cow, the more she's eating.

I think there's a real argument for some farmers moving to a smaller suckler cow. Especially for farmers working poorer land. She'I make more out of less, eating the grass rather than walking it into the ground and possibly allowing utilisation of early grass, being lighter. She'I take up less shed space AND she'I eat less silage while she's in there (=less fertiliser + contractor fees + more grazing ground)

Obviously a smaller cow type will mean a differnt breeding strategy. I bet if you made it all up, you could be left with more €

In a recent article in the IFJ, a big Irish beef finisher moved over to friesan bull beef. He didn't have his fancy charolais' to be looking at, but he must be making better margins or he wouldn't be at it.

blue5000

Just a couple of things to watch out for:

When calculating nitrates for stocking rate there is no difference between big and small cows, you might as well have bigger cows.

If you have good land big cows are probably better, smaller cows are probably better where land is poor/wet

Bizzum

As I said, We have some big big cows and some smaller ones. I think ideally, what you want is a nice size cow, not small not big, but maybe a good average...........But breeds big.
For me, the cows at home that do this are usually cows we bred ourselves and usually AI bred, indeed some of our cows have several generations of AI breeding behind them!
So......... An ounce of breeding is worth a tonne of feeding!

Nutcase

Muckit wrote: »

Obviously a smaller cow type will mean a differnt breeding strategy. I bet if you made it all up, you could be left with more €QUOTE]

What type of a cow do you think would make a smaller cow?
I read in the journal one week I think that Greenmount is goin down the route of sh x aa x lm.
Has anyone here had any experience with the beefmaster breed?

Muckit

Nutcase wrote: »

Muckit wrote: »

Obviously a smaller cow type will mean a differnt breeding strategy. I bet if you made it all up, you could be left with more €QUOTE]

What type of a cow do you think would make a smaller cow?
I read in the journal one week I think that Greenmount is goin down the route of sh x aa x lm.
Has anyone here had any experience with the beefmaster breed?

To be honest, I'm not saying I've all the answers. I just know putting CH on LM cows and visa versa seems to bring each generation getting bigger and bigger!:rolleyes: I did have an angus X in my head (and we're trying it out this year... trail and error:rolleyes:)

Don't know much about the beefmaster TBH Nutcase, they're an american breed are they?

There's a vet/farmer up north that's trying out 'stabiliser' cattle and thinks they're the business for beef (think their a 4-way cross between simmental/glebvieh/hereford/simmental) I'd love to try something different. We've all LM and CH crosses and CH PB at moment, but I remember herefords, simmentals and black white heads on the farm when I was a young lad. Maybe we'I be drawing on the past again?

Bodacious

Muckit wrote: »

Nutcase wrote: »

To be honest, I'm not saying I've all the answers. I just know putting CH on LM cows and visa versa seems to bring each generation getting bigger and bigger!:rolleyes: I did have an angus X in my head (and we're trying it out this year... trail and error:rolleyes:)

Don't know much about the beefmaster TBH Nutcase, they're an american breed are they?

There's a vet/farmer up north that's trying out 'stabiliser' cattle and thinks they're the business for beef (think their a 4-way cross between simmental/glebvieh/hereford/simmental) I'd love to try something different. We've all LM and CH crosses and CH PB at moment, but I remember herefords, simmentals and black white heads on the farm when I was a young lad. Maybe we'I be drawing on the past again?

A good sized aa x lm cow is as far back the non-continental route that i would go but thats only my opinion. She is hardy, easy kept, nice udder, calve away no bother and will cross well with BB or nice hairy yellow calf from a charolais

just do it

Bodacious wrote: »

Muckit wrote: »

Nutcase wrote: »

There's a vet/farmer up north that's trying out 'stabiliser' cattle and thinks they're the business for beef (think their a 4-way cross between simmental/glebvieh/hereford/simmentalangus) I'd love to try something different. We've all LM and CH crosses and CH PB at moment, but I remember herefords, simmentals and black white heads on the farm when I was a young lad. Maybe we'I be drawing on the past again?

I'd agree with you Bodacious. A good black whitehead cow produces as good a BBx as any. She'll also usually quiet and lets others suckle her! Handy to make up for the one or two with little milk.

I'm similarly interested in trying something different and interested in the stabiliser - I read the same article! Never heard of that glebvieh breed though! Sound german?

pakalasa

Bizzum wrote: »

.......indeed some of our cows have several generations of AI breeding behind them!
So......... An ounce of breeding is worth a tonne of feeding!

Bizzum, what way have you been breeding these, have you a set plan, i.e. Lim X Char and back again, or is it more random, with a lot of breeds used?
What would be your favourite breed X ?

just do it

http://139.78.104.1/breeds/cattle/gelbvieh/

Here's a nice trait of stabliser cattle - they're polled cattle. There's a job I hate, dehorning cattle. What a way to make sure the calves never trust you again!

Nutcase

Muckit wrote: »

Don't know much about the beefmaster TBH Nutcase, they're an american breed are they?

There's a vet/farmer up north that's trying out 'stabiliser' cattle and thinks they're the business for beef (think their a 4-way cross between simmental/glebvieh/hereford/simmental) I'd love to try something different. We've all LM and CH crosses and CH PB at moment, but I remember herefords, simmentals and black white heads on the farm when I was a young lad. Maybe we'I be drawing on the past again?

Yeah they were developed in america. And seem to be a cross between shorthorn/hereford/brahman according to the website (http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/beefmaster/index.htm)
Look alot different to any cattle we'd be used 2 seeing over here!

I heard about those Stabiliser cattle too ur right they are a 4 way cross to Gelbvieh, Hereford, Red Angus and Simmental seems like an interesting combination.

Bodacious wrote: »

A good sized aa x lm cow is as far back the non-continental route that i would go but thats only my opinion. She is hardy, easy kept, nice udder, calve away no bother and will cross well with BB or nice hairy yellow calf from a charolais

Yeah aa x lm would be a nice cross most of your cows would be black then would they?? They yellow/golden charolais calves are great for finishing.
In my opinion id like a 3/4 lim 1/4 sh I think that it would make a great cow. Getting animals to this point is it worth all the effort?

Bodacious

Nutcase wrote: »

Yeah they were developed in america. And seem to be a cross between shorthorn/hereford/brahman according to the website (http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/beefmaster/index.htm)
Look alot different to any cattle we'd be used 2 seeing over here!

I heard about those Stabiliser cattle too ur right they are a 4 way cross to Gelbvieh, Hereford, Red Angus and Simmental seems like an interesting combination.



Yeah aa x lm would be a nice cross most of your cows would be black then would they?? They yellow/golden charolais calves are great for finishing.
In my opinion id like a 3/4 lim 1/4 sh I think that it would make a great cow. Getting animals to this point is it worth all the effort?

Yes black with the AA X but i only keep a few sucklers and various mix but mostly lim X but as you say and especially round here farmers go mad round the ring for a good fancy hairy yellow golden bull or heifer calf!

Bizzum

pakalasa wrote: »

Bizzum, what way have you been breeding these, have you a set plan, i.e. Lim X Char and back again, or is it more random, with a lot of breeds used?
What would be your favourite breed X ?

No real set plan as such. Some cows came about as a result of putting Lim or BA on ped Charolais heifers.
It's not random either. I would try and correct a weakness in a cow, eg. Maybe a small cow, I'd put a Sim bull on her to bring size.
I'v used Landais a bit on ped Ch heifers, for calving ease, and got a couple of lovely heifers too. As maiden heifers I put Lim on these so as not to go too pure on the BA. Again I have 2 maidens this year from this cross which will get the Lim FL22.
So I suppose it's about always trying to breed a better cow generation after generation!
I have no real favourite cross, but I will say Landais left 3 lovely heifers after himself, then the Sim Newry did too(On small Limx cows with shape!)!

Muckit

I see there is a letter in the 'Your view' section of IFJ this week raising the same issues of suckler cow breeding.

The idea of 'breeding out' the contental strain was brought up for the reasons we were discussing here (and on other suckler AI thread), ie greater overwintering costs and for more desirable docility traits and , the big one, to breed back in milk.

defadman

dont know lads personally i find it hard to beat the ch bull and the lmx bbx for cows!!

Bizzum

I didn't see that article yet. I suppose it's one of those subjects thats always on the agenda. I severely culled/off-loaded several of my Charolais about 6 years ago for the very reason of milk. And only kept heifers from the one cow that milked and bred well.
Indeed when CF52 was THE Charolais bull, I wouldn't use him incase I'd get a heifer.
I went back to Excellent last year on my best cow because he's leaving good cows after himself.
Isn't milk a funny thing in the suckler cow: It's not the cow that looks the best milker that is the best milker!

pakalasa

It's a pity the colour of the Simmental is all over the place, rather than just one colour. Because of their milk and good bone, they are ideal for correcting a lot of faults in the other breeds. The exporters seem to prefer colours closer to the full red in lim & white in Char. CF52 has done a lot of damage to the charolais breed too in that he is very bad for milk and fertility. If you look back at the much older CH & LIM bulls in AI they were a lot better for milk & fert than the newer ones.
I'm a great believer too, when breeding replacements, in choosing the bull to correct the faults of the cow.

Tora Bora

pakalasa wrote: »

It's a pity the colour of the Simmental is all over the place, rather than just one colour. Because of their milk and good bone, they are ideal for correcting a lot of faults in the other breeds. The exporters seem to prefer colours closer to the full red in lim & white in Char. CF52 has done a lot of damage to the charolais breed too in that he is very bad for milk and fertility. If you look back at the much older CH & LIM bulls in AI they were a lot better for milk & fert than the newer ones.
I'm a great believer too, when breeding replacements, in choosing the bull to correct the faults of the cow.

I have two cow off CF52 who calf on the button every February, and they have plenty milk. Mind you the cows grandmothers in both cases are shorthorn. Suppose that helps.

Muckit

Tora Bora wrote: »

I have two cow off CF52 who calf on the button every February, and they have plenty milk. Mind you the cows grandmothers in both cases are shorthorn. Suppose that helps.

It was shorthorn cows that they mentioned in the article:D

I think the main point I took from the farmers letter (rather than picking out a particular breed), was that a suckler farmer doesn't always look at look at the true cost of producing his calves. The Ch, LM & BB calves (and their mothers) may be nice lookers, but they cost extra to produce and maintenance of cows over winter. And docility is still an issue with some LM and CH

reilig

pakalasa wrote: »

It's a pity the colour of the Simmental is all over the place, rather than just one colour. Because of their milk and good bone, they are ideal for correcting a lot of faults in the other breeds. The exporters seem to prefer colours closer to the full red in lim & white in Char. CF52 has done a lot of damage to the charolais breed too in that he is very bad for milk and fertility. If you look back at the much older CH & LIM bulls in AI they were a lot better for milk & fert than the newer ones.
I'm a great believer too, when breeding replacements, in choosing the bull to correct the faults of the cow.

I would have rated 52 as a paternal bull rather than a maternal bull with milk traits. My last bull was off him. he was renouned for easy calving but somehow having big long calves.

pakalasa

reilig wrote: »

I would have rated 52 as a paternal bull rather than a maternal bull with milk traits. My last bull was off him. he was renouned for easy calving but somehow having big long calves.

Oh, I agree. I meant though, if you went out say, buying maiden heifers in a mart and didnt know their breeding. You'd end up culling them for lack of milk....Like I've done. There's a lot of CF52 related bulls out there.

Bizzum

reilig wrote: »

I would have rated 52 as a paternal bull rather than a maternal bull with milk traits. My last bull was off him. he was renouned for easy calving but somehow having big long calves.

I would never have considered 52 as easy calving, (11% diff and 1* on the Eurostar) When around that same time Indurain was on the go with 7/8% and 3* or 4*.
Agree fully on the terminal beef sire type of bull.

I shall qualify what I'm saying by adding that my experience of CF52 is based on pedigree Charolais cows, not commercial stock!

vanderbadger

we had a bull out of 52 (like so many others) and i think there was hardly a calf pulled in his time here, the calves were also notibly more docile than previous bulls, have a good few heifers in the last year or two that would have been out of this bull and they are doing ok on the milk side of things.

Bodacious

Tora Bora wrote: »

I have two cow off CF52 who calf on the button every February, and they have plenty milk. Mind you the cows grandmothers in both cases are shorthorn. Suppose that helps.

That's a good cross. are they a nice yellow roan colour with white in them?

stuarty891

I ve just recently started back towards angus cows as they are easy to keep easy to fatten and shockingly easy to get back in calf compared to other continental breeds, its practically impossible to source non dairy bred ones but the added milk is no loss. Plan is to use a half angus half beef shorthorn bull on them to breed a cow 1/4 fresian 1/4 shorthorn 1/2 angus and use a terminal limo bull on them. be interesting to see how it goes. But these stabiliser cattle interest me alot

Dampintheattic

stuarty891 wrote: »

I ve just recently started back towards angus cows as they are easy to keep easy to fatten and shockingly easy to get back in calf compared to other continental breeds, its practically impossible to source non dairy bred ones but the added milk is no loss. Plan is to use a half angus half beef shorthorn bull on them to breed a cow 1/4 fresian 1/4 shorthorn 1/2 angus and use a terminal limo bull on them. be interesting to see how it goes. But these stabiliser cattle interest me alot

A lad in Co Down, has a couple of them on Donedeal today!
Caught my eye!! Like to get my hands on a pair to see what they are like!

ordinary farmer

Dampintheattic wrote: »

A lad in Co Down, has a couple of them on Donedeal today!
Caught my eye!! Like to get my hands on a pair to see what they are like!

any link for them?

Lastin

If you need to find out about stablizer Billy o Kane in Ballymena is the man to talk to, we have purchased a bull from him.