Agóid Chiúin / Silent Protest.

deise go deo

Hi All.



It is Enda Kenny's Policy to Remove Irish as a Core Subject for the LC and make it optional. We in Cumann Gaelach UL Believe that if this policy was put in place, it would cause serious harm to the Future of the Irish Language. See the link for more information on the issue.

Kenny's move on Irish


To demonstrate our oppisition to this policy, We will be holding a 'silent protest' in Arthurs Quay Park at 12pm this Monday.
For the silent protest we will have red tape over our mouths as a symbol for the loss of our language should this policy be put into practice.

This protest is being run in tandem with another protest in Dublin outside the Dáil.

Facebook, Agóid Chiúin

I would Like to invite anyone interested in the future of the Irish language to come along and take part in the Protest.


Is Mise Le Meas
Christóir Ó Faoláin
Uachtaráin, Cumann Gaelach UL.

TheTownie

Some of the arguments put forward against this move by Enda Kenny are just ridiculous!

One of the quotes from twitter, "Enda Kenny has absolutely NO RIGHT to decide the future of the Irish Language. This is a national disgrace!".

Enda Kenny is NOT deciding the future of the Irish language. He is putting it's future in the hands of those who will potentially speak it!

If the future of something is in your hands then what more can you ask for? The control is with the Irish people.

If as a result of making Irish optional it becomes less popular or extinct then so be it! The only people to blame would be the Irish people themselves.

With all the problems this country is in, protesting against making Irish optional should not be where people focus their energy!

deise go deo

TheTownie wrote: »

Some of the arguments put forward against this move by Enda Kenny are just ridiculous!

One of the quotes from twitter, "Enda Kenny has absolutely NO RIGHT to decide the future of the Irish Language. This is a national disgrace!".

Enda Kenny is NOT deciding the future of the Irish language. He is putting it's future in the hands of those who will potentially speak it!

If the future of something is in your hands then what more can you ask for? The control is with the Irish people.

If as a result of making Irish optional it becomes less popular or extinct then so be it! The only people to blame would be the Irish people themselves.

With all the problems this country is in, protesting against making Irish optional should not be where people focus their energy!

Sorry, but that is just a newspaper article, I provided it so people could see the context and because it provided the most important point that Languages collapsed in England because they were made optional.

Personally I think that in these strained times FG should leave the atempts at populism at the door and focus on fixing the countrys problems rather than creating new ones.

FG is claiming that their policy will promote Irish, This is simply not true, and as a result, Cumann Gaelach will be protesting agaisnt it.

TheTownie

Whether you like it or not, in the long term human communication will evolve into one universal language which will be a fusion of the most popular languages. There are more widespread languages than Irish that will fall into extinction in the future so it's not a question of if Irish will become optional, its a question of when.

For example, in countries where English is not their first language, there is a big emphasis on becoming fluent in it because it is becoming more and more essential for doing business as everything is becoming more global. Unfortunately the same importance can't be justified with Irish.

deise go deo

TheTownie wrote: »

Whether you like it or not, in the long term human communication will evolve into one universal language which will be a fusion of the most popular languages. There are more widespread languages than Irish that will fall into extinction in the future so it's not a question of if Irish will become optional, its a question of when.

For example, in countries where English is not their first language, there is a big emphasis on becoming fluent in it because it is becoming more and more essential for doing business as everything is becoming more global. Unfortunately the same importance can't be justified with Irish.

I doubt you will find many linguists who agree with you, The concept of a universal language is conversial, It isent even clear if such a thing is possible. I dont think it would be wise or benefical to pin Irelands hopes on such a thing, or on English becoming the universal language, It is expected that Spanish will over take English as the main language of the USA in 20 years.

TheTownie

deise go deo wrote: »

I doubt you will find many linguists who agree with you, The concept of a universal language is conversial, It isent even clear if such a thing is possible. I dont think it would be wise or benefical to pin Irelands hopes on such a thing, or on English becoming the universal language, It is expected that Spanish will over take English as the main language of the USA in 20 years.

This is the last I will say on this as it is headed off topic but,

As I already said the universal language will be a fusion of the most popular which may not necessarily be English but will no doubt be involved in some shape or form.

A universal language does not necessarily mean it will be spoken by everyone but it will be very dominant and widespread.

It is just as inevitable as the fact that we are headed for a global civilization as discussed below by the highly respected Michio Kaku;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXqbi3kaYxg

This may seem pie in the sky to some people but it is a very long term view of things and as Michio says we may wipe ourselves out before we get the chance to reach a global civilization.

PeakOutput

people have been forced to do irish until the age of 17/18 since the foundation of the state

the language has continued to decline and decline despite that

forcing people to study it and teaching it the way it is currently taught are doing the language no favours at all

deise go deo

PeakOutput wrote: »

people have been forced to do irish until the age of 17/18 since the foundation of the state

the language has continued to decline and decline despite that

forcing people to study it and teaching it the way it is currently taught are doing the language no favours at all

Irish is not continuing to decline, It is growing, FG's policy would throw that away.

I agree with you on one point, The way it taught now is doing no one any favors, But making Irish optional will not fix the problems in its curriculum.

cson

Optional but with an incentive points wise [bonus points perhaps a lá HL Maths] is the way to go as far as I'm concerned. There is absolutely no point channelling students who do not have an aptitude for languages into two language subjects as a matter of course - they would be much better aided concentrating on improving their primary language and pursuing their other, better aptitudes.

As an aside; the 3 languages requirement to get into an NUI should be ****ed out the window too. Knowing 3 languages has **** all bearing on whether you would be a good engineer.

NTMK

deise go deo wrote: »

Irish is not continuing to decline, It is growing, FG's policy would throw that away.

Really if it growing then why does it need to be compulsory after JC
surely if its so popular there would be no problem making it optional after the JC

deise go deo

NTMK wrote: »

Really if it growing then why does it need to be compulsory after JC
surely if its so popular there would be no problem making it optional after the JC

Why would students not choose Irish for the Leaving Cert?
-Languages are more difficult at Leaving Cert level.
-There are two papers in Irish (7.5 hours for Irish as opposed to 2½ hours in other subject?) With the pressure students are under for points, “Grá don Ghaeilge” is not enough.
-It will be competing with other subjects, Timetabling will lead to clashes with other subjects students want to do.
-Irish will not be available in every school anymore.
-pupils will be deterred from studying Irish from Primary school onwards.
International experts do not agree with this policy
Neither Enda Kenny nor Fine Gael have a single piece of evidence that justifies up this policy. We only have to look at what happened in England after foreign languages were made optional for the GCSE:
-Foreign Languages are optional at GSCE level in England since 2001
-Before this policy was put into effect 78% of students were studying at least one foreign at least for the GCSE.
-Today less than 44% of students are studying an extra language.
-it was a disastrous fall, that would have been worse still had private schools not retained a foreign language as a main subject.



FG claims their policy will promote the Irish language. This is not the truth.

Mindkiller

The whole layout of the Irish curriculum needs to be reviewed so it's taught as a foreign langauge and not based off the English paper.

Holding on to our heritage is a great cause as there are precious few gaelgoiri as is but despite it being our national tongue it is native to very few. So put an emphasis on the langauge and not the literature and pointless ****ing stories about ghosts and goblins which contribute absolute f*ck all.

I managed to get a pretty good grade in honours Irish but all of that was through learning by rote. My spoken Irish is little better than JC level, perhaps even worse.

I won't be partaking in your protest OP but I wish you the best of luck.

PeakOutput

why should people be forced to do something they dont want to do?

i think you have a better chance of saving the language if there are only people who are truly interested in it in the classroom

NTMK

deise go deo wrote: »

Why would students not choose Irish for the Leaving Cert?
-Languages are more difficult at Leaving Cert level.
-There are two papers in Irish (7.5 hours for Irish as opposed to 2½ hours in other subject?) With the pressure students are under for points, “Grá don Ghaeilge” is not enough.

that would more than likely be changed anyone who is good at it or likes will keep it up beyond JC cause to them its easy difficulty wasnt a deciding factor for me or my friends we picked what we are good at and did it

-It will be competing with other subjects, Timetabling will lead to clashes with other subjects students want to do.

It happens for every optional subject and most of them survive

-Irish will not be available in every school anymore.

The amount of irish teachers in schools that wont be a problem

-pupils will be deterred from studying Irish from Primary school onwards.

show instead you propose to keep forcing them to do it. Reform is needed and for those that dont want to do it shouldn't have to after JC

We only have to look at what happened in England after foreign languages were made optional for the GCSE:
-Foreign Languages are optional at GSCE level in England since 2001
-Before this policy was put into effect 78% of students were studying at least one foreign at least for the GCSE.
-Today less than 44% of students are studying an extra language.
-it was a disastrous fall, that would have been worse still had private schools not retained a foreign language as a main subject.

GCSE are the equivilent of the JC the proposal was to make it optional for the LC
It has always been optional at A-Levels in england

Basically those who want to do can those who dont, dont have to

DJCR

1) Very few people come out of the Leaving Cert with a decent level of Irish and those that do loose it because it isn't used.

2) It isn't used because from what I hear, (yes, its not a typo I wasn't even given the option of learning Irish) the Irish learned is some amount of BS and isn't practical at all.


The answer isn't a difficult one:-

Teach it as a foreign language (but never admitt it). Learn phrases that are usefull. I mean I live with a guy thats joined Cumann Gaelach UL and he doesn't have a high standard of Irish at all - infact basic would be being genorous (according to himself).

I studied French in School. Comparably there were far more people doing higher level French than Irish.
And those who did could do very practicle things:-

Book hotels, order train tickets, read menus, write letters, talk about topical issues (and not so topical - Aids like?) and even have little conversations with each other.

I stress, I then went to France and it took me a good 6 months to get good at French but I had the basics to work with!!
It seems to me that the majority of people haven't even got that in Irish.

Its sad and who the hell wants to talk about Poetry and Peggy Sayers these days!! Learn the language first, then explore it!

deise go deo

DJCR wrote: »

1) Very few people come out of the Leaving Cert with a decent level of Irish and those that do loose it because it isn't used.

2) It isn't used because from what I hear, (yes, its not a typo I wasn't even given the option of learning Irish) the Irish learned is some amount of BS and isn't practical at all.


The answer isn't a difficult one:-

Teach it as a foreign language (but never admitt it). Learn phrases that are usefull. I mean I live with a guy thats joined Cumann Gaelach UL and he doesn't have a high standard of Irish at all - infact basic would be being genorous (according to himself).

I studied French in School. Comparably there were far more people doing higher level French than Irish.
And those who did could do very practicle things:-

Book hotels, order train tickets, read menus, write letters, talk about topical issues (and not so topical - Aids like?) and even have little conversations with each other.

I stress, I then went to France and it took me a good 6 months to get good at French but I had the basics to work with!!
It seems to me that the majority of people haven't even got that in Irish.

Its sad and who the hell wants to talk about Poetry and Peggy Sayers these days!! Learn the language first, then explore it!

I agree with your position, Irish in school is awfull. That alone will mean the numbers choosing it will colaps, But making Irish optional will not fix that, it will make things much worse.

A full reform of the Curriculum is needed.

We dont want things to stay the same as they are now, and we are not protesting for things to stay the same, we are just protesting against Endas policy because it would be a regressive step in the Teaching of Irish.

If FG proposed to reform the curriculum to make it better instead of making Irish optional I would go out canvising for them myself.


As for your friend, I hope he is enjoying himself in the Cumann, Everyone is welcome to join no matter what their ability to speak Irish.

TheTownie

deise go deo wrote: »

I agree with your position, Irish in school is awfull. That alone will mean the numbers choosing it will colaps, But making Irish optional will not fix that, it will make things much worse.

A full reform of the Curriculum is needed.

We dont want things to stay the same as they are now, and we are not protesting for things to stay the same, we are just protesting against Endas policy because it would be a regressive step in the Teaching of Irish.

If FG proposed to reform the curriculum to make it better instead of making Irish optional I would go out canvising for them myself.


As for your friend, I hope he is enjoying himself in the Cumann, Everyone is welcome to join no matter what their ability to speak Irish.

A proper curricular reform would have to include making Irish optional.

I think its important to stress that point.

deise go deo

TheTownie wrote: »

A proper curricular reform would have to include making Irish optional.

I think its important to stress that point.

Why would it?

The 20 year plan for the Irish language recomends that Irish remain a core subject for the leaving cert.

TheTownie

deise go deo wrote: »

Why would it?

The 20 year plan for the Irish language recomends that Irish remain a core subject for the leaving cert.

Well first of all those percentages you are quoting from the UK are just participation figures.

You tell me whats the difference between 20% uptake of Irish and 20% actually be able to use it versus 100% uptake and only 20% being able to use it.

Obviously those are not official figures but the principle is the same whatever the real figures are.

I sat through hours upon hours of Irish when it could have been better spent on subjects I have an aptitude for! Changing the curriculum is only beneficial to those who want to learn it or have an aptitude for languages.

Sure if Irish has to be compulsory we might as well make joining Cumann Gaelach compulsory too! Same difference. Sitting through a class of something that don't want to be at!

If the Irish want to speak it they will study it! If they don't then I guess there trying to tell us all something...

Hulk Hands

A recent study has shown that a decent grip of the Irish language is the number 1 skill multinational's look for when choosing between job applicants.

Ahem...

Start teaching it like French/German and get rid of all the stupid reading's and poetry and maybe a few more will continue to speak it after leaving school

deise go deo

TheTownie wrote: »

Sure if Irish has to be compulsory we might as well make joining Cumann Gaelach compulsory too! Same difference. Sitting through a class of something that don't want to be at!

We dont do Classes, We do events like the Up coming Seachtain na Gaeilge.

We will be holding a fireworks display for it. You find me people that dont want that.:P

TheTownie

deise go deo wrote: »

We dont do Classes, We do events like the Up coming Seachtain na Gaeilge.

We will be holding a fireworks display for it. You find me people that dont want that.:P

You should pass on your secrets of enticing people to speak Irish on to the Minister for Education. Fireworks display for Leaving Certs would definitely go down well with the students. :pac:

deise go deo

TheTownie wrote: »

You should pass on your secrets of enticing people to speak Irish on to the Minister for Education. Fireworks display for Leaving Certs would definitely go down well with the students. :pac:

Ya, But think of the class room afterwards.:pac:

Polar Ice

deise go deo wrote: »

-Foreign Languages are optional at GSCE level in England since 2001
-Before this policy was put into effect 78% of students were studying at least one foreign at least for the GCSE.
-Today less than 44% of students are studying an extra language.
-it was a disastrous fall, that would have been worse still had private schools not retained a foreign language as a main subject.

It isn't exactly making languages optional by removing the compulsory Irish requirement from a curriculum. For the most part there is the requirement to have studied a foreign language for entry to a university course.

Languages outside of Irish and English are optional. What percentage of people take languages such as French, German, Spanish, etc... for the LC?

If you look at the figures for Irish vs. The 3 Main continental european languages (2010):
~17% of people didn't do Irish for the leaving cert in 2010
Only ~2% more people take Irish at higher level than take French at higher level
The number of people who sat French, German and Spanish combined was only ~14% less than took Irish