If HSE is abolished / Paramedic training

Einstein

Hi folks,

Just wondering what the thoughts would be if FG get into government and abolish the HSE like they promise. Do you think it would be a step to lifting the restrction of Paramedic training in Ireland, and maybe open it up more like it is in the UK/US, or would it stay just as much a closed shop as it is now.

*Edit* Apologies, this was not meant for the Other Emergency Services Recruitment thread*

ch252

Whether or not the HSE is abolished, I can see paramedic courses becoming available through the CAO system, probably in UCD or UL. Degree programmes are now the norm in the UK and USA now for paramedics, in house training appears to be being phased out.

Degree programmes would be 3 or 4 years long and thus would allow students to be trained to a much higher level. The D1 requirement would probably need to be abolished for this to work, but I see that happening in the near future anyway seen as most of the new ambulances are actually C1 anyway aren't they?

ch252

Also, where did you see that FG plan to abolish the HSE?

Einstein

ch252 wrote: »

Also, where did you see that FG plan to abolish the HSE?

It's one of their main campaign promises.
http://www.tv3.ie/article.php?article_id=53203&locID=1.2&pagename=news

That's one very small article...there are plenty more out there on the political sites I'm sure.

Actual Paramedic

Well it will just be the same old show under a new banner, I joined the EHB, went to ERHA and now the HSE, different headed paper but the same job. They might if they thought right form a separate own identity and own budget ambulance service but that takes brains.

ch252

Actual Paramedic wrote: »

...but that takes brains.

I wouldn't worry about it so!:P

Bang Bang

Einstein wrote: »

Hi folks,

Just wondering what the thoughts would be if FG get into government and abolish the HSE like they promise. Do you think it would be a step to lifting the restrction of Paramedic training in Ireland, and maybe open it up more like it is in the UK/US, or would it stay just as much a closed shop as it is now.

What makes you think it's a closed shop?
It's advertised as an open competition by the HSE NAS and DFB, so if you meet the criteria you have the same opportunity as everyone else who meets it.
Nothing closed shop about that.

Is it a closed shop because only the Defence Forces train you to become a soldier??

coolmoose

Einstein wrote: »

Hi folks,

Just wondering what the thoughts would be if FG get into government and abolish the HSE like they promise. Do you think it would be a step to lifting the restrction of Paramedic training in Ireland, and maybe open it up more like it is in the UK/US, or would it stay just as much a closed shop as it is now.

*Edit* Apologies, this was not meant for the Other Emergency Services Recruitment thread*

I wouldn't worry too much about it, training will need to continue to replace staff, and I can't imagine because the HSE is abolished that PHECC will all of a sudden change their training and education accreditation standards for training institutes, or change the Paramedic syllabus.

ch252 wrote: »

Whether or not the HSE is abolished, I can see paramedic courses becoming available through the CAO system, probably in UCD or UL. Degree programmes are now the norm in the UK and USA now for paramedics, in house training appears to be being phased out.

Degree programmes would be 3 or 4 years long and thus would allow students to be trained to a much higher level. The D1 requirement would probably need to be abolished for this to work, but I see that happening in the near future anyway seen as most of the new ambulances are actually C1 anyway aren't they?

This is highly unlikely and in fact has been pretty much decided upon as not the way that paramedic training in Ireland will be conducted. To suggest that students would be trained to a much higher level because of sitting a 4 year degree course is a falsehood, and suggests that you don't know very much about the current level of training provided in NASC/OBI. The current training and education course takes 2 years to become a PHECC Registered Paramedic with the awarding of a Diploma in Emergency Medical Science (DipEMS), 3 years on-the-road, and a further 2 years to become a PHECC Registered AP with the awarding of a Graduate Diploma in EMS, resulting in 7 years overall training and education, with a further 1 year study and research to gain an MSc in EMS.

The Irish education & training model is also held in very high regard for it's 1 year internship periods which are applicable to both P and AP training.

To compare the Paramedic training course here to the UK is also not comparing like with like, as the Paramedic qualification in the UK is the equivalent of the AP here. There is an aim of a certain % factor of staff in the Irish service to be trained to AP level, and the service demands would not reach levels to run AP courses through the CAO as you suggest.

Also the current selection and training model for APs is considered to be the best, whereby experienced practitioners (Paramedics with a minimum 3 years post-grad on the road experience) apply through a selection process to undertake further training.

D1 is still required to not only drive older ambulances, but also other vehicles the service has such as PTS minibuses etc...it's not all 999 work we do.

Actual Paramedic wrote: »

Well it will just be the same old show under a new banner, I joined the EHB, went to ERHA and now the HSE, different headed paper but the same job. They might if they thought right form a separate own identity and own budget ambulance service but that takes brains.

Agreed...will probably just be a name change!

Einstein

Bang Bang wrote:

What makes you think it's a closed shop?
It's advertised as an open competition by the HSE NAS and DFB, so if you meet the criteria you have the same opportunity as everyone else who meets it.
Nothing closed shop about that.

It's closed shop as in the HSE are the only ones that can give people an opportunity to get to Paramedic level via recruitment every few years...whereas in multiple countries people can apply to multiple colleges and get qualified to AP level.

coolmoose wrote: »

...The current training and education course takes 2 years to become a PHECC Registered Paramedic with the awarding of a Diploma in Emergency Medical Science (DipEMS), 3 years on-the-road, and a further 2 years to become a PHECC Registered AP with the awarding of a Graduate Diploma in EMS, resulting in 7 years overall training and education, with a further 1 year study and research to gain an MSc in EMS.

Jebus...I could become a doctor in that time, and just apply as a mature student...

coolmoose wrote:

...the Paramedic qualification in the UK is the equivalent of the AP here.

Which can be done in 4 years...3 years in some Colleges. Granted I realise the 3 years experience is taken into consideration, but Paramedics from the UK can apply directly to the HSE here if they're advertising once registered with PHECC and gain employment...Where's the sense in that!?

coolmoose

Einstein wrote: »

Jebus...I could become a doctor in that time, and just apply as a mature student...

Become a doctor and apply as a mature student for Paramedic training??

Einstein wrote: »

Which can be done in 4 years...3 years in some Colleges. Granted I realise the 3 years experience is taken into consideration, but Paramedics from the UK can apply directly to the HSE here if they're advertising once registered with PHECC and gain employment...Where's the sense in that!?

Sitting a Paramedic course in the UK does not entitle you to automatic PHECC registration, each case is assessed on an individual basis, and generally will need some on-the-road experience equivalent to the internship Paramedic interns here must complete.

Bang Bang

Einstein wrote: »

It's closed shop as in the HSE are the only ones that can give people an opportunity to get to Paramedic level via recruitment every few years...whereas in multiple countries people can apply to multiple colleges and get qualified to AP level.

That's because they are the main pre-hospital emergency care providers along with Dublin Fire Brigade, the Defence Forces and Coast Guard.
Remember there is the Misuse of Drugs Act and Controlled Drugs to think of. I honestly can't see individuals, outside of the mentioned providers, being granted a licence to carry and administer medications covered in the above group of drugs.

Einstein

coolmoose wrote: »

Become a doctor and apply as a mature student for Paramedic training??

No. One could become a doctor in the same time it takes to become an AP

coolmoose wrote:

Sitting a Paramedic course in the UK does not entitle you to automatic PHECC registration, each case is assessed on an individual basis, and generally will need some on-the-road experience equivalent to the internship Paramedic interns here must complete.

That makes sense alright, but hardly 3 years of on the road experience..?

Bang Bang wrote:

That's because they are the main pre-hospital emergency care providers along with Dublin Fire Brigade, the Defence Forces and Coast Guard.
Remember there is the Misuse of Drugs Act and Controlled Drugs to think of. I honestly can't see individuals, outside of the mentioned providers, being granted a licence to carry and administer medications covered in the above group of drugs.

As the NHS are in the UK, but there are a number of ways to become a Paramedic outside of the NHS...

coolmoose

Einstein wrote: »

No. One could become a doctor in the same time it takes to become an AP

If one can get into medicine in the first place...

Einstein wrote: »

That makes sense alright, but hardly 3 years of on the road experience..?

Probably not, but why do you think that just because the NHS/UK do it that way, then it must be the best? You can do Paramedic courses in the US in a much shorter timeframe...but I thoroughly disagree with this model of training. I believe it is a safer model of training to train experienced practitioners to higher levels.

Also, you really do need to be working with HSE/DFB for the sake of skill retention, case study and reflective practice in my opinion...I know I wouldn't want a Paramedic who paid €20k+ for their training and hasn't done any serious calls in ages attending me or my family. This isn't a slur against private services, I just genuinely believe that skill retention is of extreme importance, and I don't believe that this is facilitated in any better way than constantly doing AS1/AS2 calls.

Einstein

coolmoose wrote: »

If one can get into medicine in the first place...

Touché :P

but why do you think that just because the NHS/UK do it that way, then it must be the best? You can do Paramedic courses in the US in a much shorter timeframe...but I thoroughly disagree with this model of training. I believe it is a safer model of training to train experienced practitioners to higher levels.

Don't get me wrong, it's not that I think its the best way...that's not really my point. I guess it's just frustrating that we're one of the only countries that operates this way. Everyone else can't be wrong either!

Also, you really do need to be working with HSE/DFB for the sake of skill retention, case study and reflective practice in my opinion...I know I wouldn't want a Paramedic who paid €20k+ for their training and hasn't done any serious calls in ages attending me or my family. This isn't a slur against private services, I just genuinely believe that skill retention is of extreme importance, and I don't believe that this is facilitated in any better way than constantly doing AS1/AS2 calls.

I totally agree regarding skill retention is of utmost importance.

I wonder how much money would be saved by the HSE, if, like any other career, people funded their own education...and were hired as Paramedics. Then like any other job, started with an experienced paramedic for the initial 6 month internship etc.

That way maybe more money could be put into having more ambulances on the roads and improving response times?

Or am I living in a bubble?

Richie15

Einstein wrote: »

That way maybe more money could be put into having more ambulances on the roads and improving response times?

Or am I living in a bubble?

Bubble. They'd just have a smaller budget if the gov't fount out they were saving money somewhere. :P

rescue16

Just join the Civil Defence they do E.M.T training and also Driving courses for C1 and D1

coolmoose

The Civil Defence will not train you up to Paramedic level, where did you get this nonsense from? CD is authorised to provide EMT level training, as are most of the other vol amb organisations.

edit: ah wait, I remember you rescue16...it's been a while since you were posting rubbish here!

rescue16

coolmoose wrote: »

The Civil Defence will not train you up to Paramedic level, where did you get this nonsense from? CD is authorised to provide EMT level training, as are most of the other vol amb organisations.

edit: ah wait, I remember you rescue16...it's been a while since you were posting rubbish here!

Hey coolmouse how you being keeping the Civil Defence actually do have two peramedics but i just found out you are actually right they were up two emt level put had to go private for the peramedic the reason i tought they were trained by the civil defence is because i saw them recently with peramedic badges on there shirts and jackets. Thanks for that. And by the way no need for the remark at the end as i cant remember ever coming accross you. Thanks again anyway.

coolmoose

You can't train privately as a Paramedic in Ireland either, so unless they did it in the UK or somewhere else then they ain't Paramedics.

Oh we've met before on these boards, don't worry! As someone who doesn't actually work in the emergency services, you just seem very quick to post info on the forum that turns out to be incorrect...maybe do some research before posting? Anyway, no problems!

rescue16

coolmoose wrote: »

You can't train privately as a Paramedic in Ireland either, so unless they did it in the UK or somewhere else then they ain't Paramedics.

Oh we've met before on these boards, don't worry! As someone who doesn't actually work in the emergency services, you just seem very quick to post info on the forum that turns out to be incorrect...maybe do some research before posting? Anyway, no problems!

I actually was in the emergency services but not in the medical side. But saying that i was training to be a e.m.t until i was in a car crash myself so i am now out of action due to damage of my L5 C5 AND C6 so I am no longer able to train. I am in the civil defence now tough and thats were i saw the peramedic badges but saying that this too guys could be just wearing them when the might not even be E.F.R trained might actually look into it and let you know. I am guessing you are a E.M.T then maybe one day I might be able to go back and try again. I was a member of Search and Rescue so I had medical training up to E.F.R standard have to do a refresher tough. Anyway sorry I cant remember bumping into before looking forward to chatting again. Thanks Alan

Shield

This:

coolmoose wrote: »

I remember you rescue16...it's been a while since you were posting rubbish here!

And this:

coolmoose wrote: »

As someone who doesn't actually work in the emergency services, you just seem very quick to post info on the forum that turns out to be incorrect...maybe do some research before posting?

...are not acceptable. "Attack the post, not the poster". I don't want to see discussions getting personal. First and only warning.

coolmoose

psni wrote: »

This:
And this:
...are not acceptable.

Noted. The 2nd post of mine quoted was friendly advice, not in any way meant as a personal attack.

Paramed

Looking like one of the well know training institutes has plans to introuduce private paramedic training in the future . I can only imagine what it will cost though

Hightower21

cant see how somebody could take 20 months off working fulltime (i.e. no time to do any other job)
If they do manage to get a course up and running fair play, best of luck.

DOBBER112

I was recently in touch with the human resources department of the HSE and the lady I spoke too did advise that they are currently looking into making the Paramedic course a C.A.O choice although she said no concrete timeline is available. In other words could be a long wait for this choice to become reality. Its about time it was done though and people are given the chance to train privately as is done in pretty much every other country.

ch252

DOBBER112 wrote: »

I was recently in touch with the human resources department of the HSE and the lady I spoke too did advise that they are currently looking into making the Paramedic course a C.A.O choice although she said no concrete timeline is available. In other words could be a long wait for this choice to become reality. Its about time it was done though and people are given the chance to train privately as is done in pretty much every other country.

If it does go through the CAO system it will probably be an ordinary degree or bachelors degree if the current course choice is anything to go by. I would be worried that this would leave any of us who apply before this is implemented at a substantial disadvantage because it would stand to reason that a 3/4 year degree would leave graduates at a far higher standard than graduates of the diploma, ie. the graduates of the degree would be the future leaders of the ambulance service, not those with the diploma. Any thoughts?

Shield

danieleng204 wrote: »

Well I certainly hope whatever private firm takes on the Paramedic Training, that they'll do it right!

Your unsubstantiated comments have been removed by me. You can't make allegations of that nature unless you back it up with relevant links in the media proving what you claim has happened has actually happened.