Miss Kitty peeing problems.

Lornen

Thank you to everyone who is prepared to read this absolute whopper of a post.

Hello all, I have a cat who is nearly 8 years old. Miss Kitty.
Miss Kitty was a fine cat. Friendly and happy all the time. She fell pregnant around the 2 year mark and had a single kitten in her litter. The kitten ended up being given away and that was that.
The next year, Miss Kitty fell pregnant again. She was getting quite large so we were expecting several bumpkins. The big day felt like it was upon for several days, but no babies were coming. We then started noticed some dried blood on Miss Kitty's tail and hind legs. My mother stayed up with her all night to see if they would come.

Nothing. So we whisked Miss Kitty to the vet that morning.
It turned out that Miss Kitty had 5 babies. One died and was acting like a "cork" and blocking the.. let's call it, the exit door.

Miss Kitty had to have an emergency C section to try and save the other babies. 4 babies came out breathing but all died shortly after birth. Miss Kitty had a hysterectomy at this time also, as the doctor's advised it.
She came back a shadow of herself. I was used to seeing this plump little happy kitty, waddling about the place.
But Miss Kitty spent her days from there on out sitting on the porch, staring out at the street aimlessly..


This was about 5 years ago. The problem I am having, stems from there.

I am having a SERIOUS PROBLEM with Miss Kitty. I can't remember much before the failed pregnancy, but I don't think we ever had problems with Miss Kitty peeing in the house before it.

She is peeing on EVERYTHING.

When I say everything, I mean it.
It was ok at first. We all took into account that Miss Kitty has just lost 5 babies and hey, they would send anyone a bit loopy, right?

So yes, a little peeing here and there.
But then my mum decided to get Miss Kitty a friend.
2 and a half years ago. A black kitten called Greebo (yes, like from the Terry Pratchett book, but female)

Greebo was a wild kitten and afraid of everything. She ran into my mothers room as soon as we got her and she stayed there for several days as she was petrified of us.

I should probably mention that Miss Kitty was mum's partner in crime/shadow. She waited out side the bathroom door while mum was using it for crying out loud!

So anyway, Miss Kitty took a passionate dislike to Greebo.

Greebo's new haunt was mum's bedroom aka Miss Kitty's bedroom.

And here is where the mega p*ssing session commenced.


She peed on: Mum's bed, pillows, shoes, handbags, wardrobes, in Greebo's basket, food bowl, water bowl. She even peed on MY MOTHER while she stood talking to my sister.

To this day, whenever we get a new appliance, she pee's on it.
This week was a brand new, rather expensive food processor.
Microwaves, ovens, kettles and laptops have also been hit.

Last year after returning from Valentines Day dinner, I walked on Miss Kitty perched on my window sill, mid tinkle on 2 BRAND NEW ITOUCHES..

It's so bad that if I don't rub her when she wants one or if I had to leave her mid rub, I'm in bed thinking of all the things I've left down stairs that she could pee on out of temper.

I just don't know what to do. None of us do.

It's so outrageous. Walking down the road in your brand new David Bowie t-shirt when you get this God awful smell of dried cat pee..


So please. If anyone can help me with this problem I would greatly appreciate it!

Also, Is it possible for a cat to become mentally unstable or something like that?
I know it sounds slightly ridiculous. But I mean, she's gone mental ever since then.
Is it possible for cat's to be traumatised and act strangely?

The Sweeper

Your cat is currently confused, anxious, extremely highly strung, and very, very stressed. She doesn't know if she's coming or going. The action of peeing everywhere in the house is her trying to establish what is hers, and once she starts doing that, unless you can clean it all up properly, your entire house now smells to her like her own toilet, so she simply continues to go where she went before.

Before the introduction of the new kitten, the peeing could well have been a stress response to losing the kittens. She knew something wasn't right but her wee cat brain is too small to fully understand what's happened. Territorial marking - peeing everywhere - can be a big part of a cat trying to establish what's right in its world.

Unfortunately the idea of getting her a friend just exacerbated the problem. Cats, while they can be extremely social if raised together, are very territorial and all new introductions need to be managed very carefully. When you introduced Greebo, you should have taken things very slowly, installed Miss Kitty in your mother's bedroom (not the new kitten), completely ignored Greebo, and made a huge fuss of Miss Kitty over a matter of weeks to ensure she understood that she was still loved and wanted and she was queen of the house, no matter what. Instead, by allowing Greebo to take refuge in your mum's bedroom, you artificially elevated Greebo above Miss Kitty in the household rankings - to a cat, that's like being thrown out of home.

Put aside your idea that she will pee on things out of 'vengeance' - she's not capable of spite, revenge, plotting to pee on your favourite thing - her tiny peanut brain doesn't work like that. If she pees on something new you brought home, it's because it's a new item that she's seen you show interest in and she's trying to establish that it's also hers, not Greebos - so she piddles on it.

You may have perceived a link between you not petting her and her piddling on something - I don't believe this would be out of spite. More like she's so highly strung and so confused about her status in the house that when you don't pat her, you trigger her 'do I belong here or not' anxieties so she goes on a peeing spree to reinforce the fact that the house is hers.

I don't know this for sure, but I would not be surprised if you were to tell me that the first few times Miss Kitty and Greebo met, Miss Kitty would have a go at Greebo, hissing or swiping, and someone in your house would then give out to Miss Kitty and tell her she should be nice to the new kitten, possibly even push her away and pick up poor frightened Greebo for a cuddle to reassure the cute kitten that the older cat is just being 'mean'. This just makes things worse. Your resident cat should be allowed (within reason and with the use of common sense) to hiss and swipe at a newcomer without being given out to. Intervene by distracting your resident cat with a treat, or remove them to a different space for a cuddle. Never install the newcomer in 'prime kitty real estate' (e.g. your bedroom) if that's where the resident cat normally holds court.

Basically, cats are quite territorially complicated. Even moreso than dogs, in a lot of ways. The situation you have at the moment is of your own (unintentional) making.

What to do about it

First, bring the cat to the vet to rule out any medical reason (though I doubt such prolonged peeing would be for a medical reason). In some cases the vet can administer a hormone injection (but that has its own side effects) which can help. The vet can also administer the equivalent of kitty valium to calm Miss Kitty down - because if she's more chilled out, she may stop peeing everywhere.

Once the vet rules out a medical problem, you can discuss possibilities with them. You need to be conscious that this is long-term, learned behaviour and it will take a MAJOR effort to beat it. There is no quick fix for this.

In order to fix this, you need to do a number of things:

• Restrict Miss Kitty's access to one room in the house.
• (If Greebo is still around, you will also need to restrict Greebo's movements within the house).
• Completely clean the entire house so there is no remaining trace of cat pee anywhere.
• Restore balance to the household to ensure territorial / anxiety peeing doesn't happen again.
• Retrain Miss Kitty in the use of a litter tray.

Have a look through this post for how to manage the clean up, creating a 'safe space' (if Greebo is still around, there needs to be one for each cat, in two separate areas of the house) and litter training.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70155580&postcount=7

To restore balance to the household, you'll need to manage reintroductions to the house for both cats. Some cats never, ever get along and you may need to accept that you have to separate them permanently by keeping each one in a separate half of the house.

You wouldn't be the first person to have a problem like this, but the duration of the behaviour, the length of time it's gone unaddressed (five years?) and the degree of it (daily, constantly) would concern me. However, remember - a cat that eliminates inappropriately is very similar to a puppy - if you don't want your stuff ruined by pee, or chewing, then don't leave your stuff lying around, and don't let your animal near your stuff!

tallus

Bloody excellent post The Sweeper!

Lornen

Firstly, I'd like to thank you for your lengthly reply.

Secondly, I'm getting the distinct feeling you're under the impression that in some way, I'm mis-treating Miss Kitty. Several of us were absolutely horrified at the thought of another cat in the house, but the ever persistent pushy other half of my mother's managed to convince her to take in this kitten.

I have 2 smaller children in my house and in the mean time Greebo has become my 12 year old sister's shadow. Currently asleep on Lucia's bed, Greebo spends the majority of her time in her room. Even sleeping along side her during the night.
Miss Kitty never goes into that room, she stays in mum's room again or the hot press. I'm usually up quite alot during the night and I always go out onto the landing and give Miss Kitty a little rub on the way to and from the bathroom.

I should probably have mentioned Miss Kitty is very hot and cold, sometimes she can't stand being touched. So we usually just let her come to us. It's very hard to shake her when she is in a good mood so you can end up spending quite some time with her. She sheds like a demon too but I doubt that's much of a problem, she always has done and she never loses so much hair that it's visibly noticeable. (unless you look at your pants!)


It sounds like you think that as soon as MK turned out to be a "dud" and couldn't have kittens, that we ran out and bought a kitten.
In the 2 1/2, almost 3 years after MK's failed pregnancy, she was spoilt rotten. My mother felt especially sorry for her and she would sit up with Miss Kitty all night. We did absolutely everything to try and cheer Miss Kitty up. If MK needed to pee at night, she would wander into the shower and pee down the drain.
We do infact have a litter tray. Although Miss Kitty has never used one since she was very very small.

Greebo was alot harder to house train than Miss Kitty and we still do keep a litter tray as she's not as good as MK, mind you Greebo never uses the bathroom in the house that we know of.

I read back now and I think I have misled you into believing my house is now nothing more than a mere shell of a p*ssing haunt for MK, but it's not like that. Just sometimes you'll be about to do something and "Ah, Miss Kitty's nailed it"

You assumed that Miss Kitty and Greebo did not get on at first.
You are correct! Miss Kitty even managed to pee on Greebo!

But that was ofcourse going to happen.

I have an older sister who hates cats, but even she sided with Miss Kitty and disagreed with the introduction of a new cat.

Lucia, my younger sister was the one who mollycoddled Greebo and still does.
Miss Kitty did take a few swipes at Greebo but that is expected. We would just break it up and move on from that.

As Greebo started to grow, she thought she could play with Miss Kitty. Miss Kitty was having NONE of it! It almost looks like Greebo bullies MK but I know it's just her youth and nature to be a little boisterous.

They chase each other alot around the house but she gives as good as she gets.

We see Greebo as the hard nut. She's young and bouncy and springy. Perfect for a 12 year old. Miss Kitty tends to get along with the older ones like myself and my mother. She knows to come to me if she feels a little sad or needs a rub.

I just would hate to think, you think we aren't doing all we can to make Miss Kitty feel like this is her house.


The list of things she's peed on has been over a number of years and I do feel as if you maybe thought it was only in the past while. The latest one was the food processor and the oven door. Banisters aswell now I think of it..



I will look into bringing her to a vets, as for the restriction of the cats to certain parts of the house, this could proved incredibly difficult if not impossible as there's always people running in and out of rooms. I don't think my 7 year old brother knows how to close a bloody door and Greebo is quite the escape artist. Miss Kitty can also open doors.


Would more attention to Miss Kitty help? I don't know how in the World I'll manage to give her more attention, but I will try.


Also, it has gone "unaddressed" because we keep on getting the same old story about how she's just marking her territory. She'll be fine for a few weeks and then just nail something else.


Anyway, to the vets it is!

Thank you again for your reply
Hopefully I can report back and let you know what I find out.

The Sweeper

Edited to delete my original 'I have a pain in my hole' post which was the result of me banging my head off the desk.

I don't think you mistreat your cat.

I do think this has gone unaddressed for a while. Five years? Isn't five years a while? I don't care why - I'm just trying to make you see that five years unaddressed means the cat has a habit of inappropriate elimination that will be hard to break because it's been ongoing for over half her life.

As for the cat hating the kitten first and then the kitten being mollycoddled, I don't care if it's just your sister and you all thought it was terrible, it still happened, it happens very, very often in new pet introductions, and it's a part of your problem.

As for the impression I got - re-read your post.

"She is peeing on EVERYTHING"
"The mega pissing session"
"It's so outrageous"

The impression I got was the impression you GAVE ME. Seriously - I hear hoofbeats, I think horses.

Lornen

The Sweeper wrote: »

Edited to delete my original 'I have a pain in my hole' post which was the result of me banging my head off the desk.

I don't think you mistreat your cat.

I do think this has gone unaddressed for a while. Five years? Isn't five years a while? I don't care why - I'm just trying to make you see that five years unaddressed means the cat has a habit of inappropriate elimination that will be hard to break because it's been ongoing for over half her life.

As for the cat hating the kitten first and then the kitten being mollycoddled, I don't care if it's just your sister and you all thought it was terrible, it still happened, it happens very, very often in new pet introductions, and it's a part of your problem.

As for the impression I got - re-read your post.

"She is peeing on EVERYTHING"
"The mega pissing session"
"It's so outrageous"

The impression I got was the impression you GAVE ME. Seriously - I hear hoofbeats, I think horses.

Wow, The Sweeper, I am so sorry if I have offended you.
You have given me an absolutely amazing reply and you no doubt put alot of thought and care into the post and I was in no way trying to upset/offend/ be a general pain in your a*se.

I'm sorry I got defensive. I just felt really bad as it made me think, was I actually neglecting my animal to the extent it's peeing on valuables out of sheer frustration.

Again, I am very grateful I got a quick and speedy reply.

I now feel more confident in what I have to do. Everyone I mentioned cats potentially having a mental illness or something along those lines has laughed at me. So I just wasn't 100% sure I should take her to the vets.


Apologies again and I hope I haven't put a damper on your day.





EDIT: I just saw you deleted previous post, but yes I did say it was outrageous. I'm sure if your cat p*ssed on 600 euro's worth of iTouches, you'd be pretty irritated. As well as when you went to bake a cake, and found a pool of yellow sitting in a bloody basin.


I live in a house with my family, I'm not in charge of what comes in or leaves. So it's hardly like I did this to myself! That's all I was trying to get out. Like if you had a housemate who's cat was peeing on your belongings. It's the same when you live in a house with your family and didn't bring the cat into it but you have to put up with it's problems.


Anyway as I said countless times. I am very, very grateful for your response and it has really given me a good idea as what to do.

The Sweeper

I wish you luck with it - it's not an easy problem to fix.

Cats are very complicated little creatures but they don't show a lot in their body language - not like dogs. Their body language is subtle but it's definitely there.

Here are some 'for instances', which might help in figuring out exactly what's going on in Miss Kitty's head.

Tail straight up in the air - that's 'kitten tail', often most evident at feeding time when kitty runs to her food bowl ahead of you with a straight, upright tail. It's a happy, trusting tail.

Tail up in the air but crooked with a curled tip, almost like a question mark - that's a 'Hey I'm curious and happy, what's going on here then?' tail.

A tail at half mast - held in a gentle curve level with the body - that's a contented tail, usually seen on a cat who's pootling about happily minding their own business. A low, tucked-in tail held close to the body, following the line of the legs and the tip sort of points up from the ankles - that's an unhappy or frightened or nervous cat.

When your cat is sauntering past you with a half mast tail, and you call her, and she flicks the tail at you and keeps going, that's like a wave - hey there, I hear you, busy, gotta go, catch you later.

Tail movement - sitting cat, tip of the tail is twitching. That's usually a sign of uncertainty. The cat is not quite comfortable and at ease. In a sitting cat, you'll often see this tail sign accompanied by one ear being held forward and the other pointing backwards. This is a cat who's happy enough but who isn't quite sure what's going to happen next. You can even see this in a cat who appears to be dozing on your lap - tailtip twitching, one ear backwards - I think usually they're waiting to see if you're about to hoist them off your lap.

Both ears pointing backwards is a sign of a lot of uncertainty. What is going on? I am not entirely comfortable with this at all.

Both ears pointing forwards is a sign of interest - I am interesting in what I'm looking at and am giving it the full attention of all my senses.

Ears flattened down to the head with narrowed eyes is an extremely unhappy expression. That face is a prepare-to-fight face - ears protected by being flattened, eyes protected by eyelids narrowing. Often that face precedes an exchange of swipes between two cats.

In a sleeping cat, flattened ears, while they look sort of irritated, are actually a sign of extreme relaxation. Cats have still cartilege in their ears, and when they're really relaxed they loosen all the muscles that hold that cartilege in place and their ears droop down and out to the sides. It can look like they're peed off, but actually they're really chilled out!

A lashing tail is a sign of obvious irritation.

Also look for other subtle signs - especially if you have a cat that can be changeable in her moods. If you're stroking her and she appears to become excited or agitated - lots of scent marking back and forth with the face, pacing with a flicking tail - this can turn quickly into a strike out with paws or a quick bite.

And offset to this is 'bread kneading' - the action of kneading and scrunching of the toes on the front paws. That's an extremely happy gesture - it comes from kittenhood when they suckle off ther mothers, they knead the flesh on either side of the nipple with paws to make the milk come faster. If your cat is doing a lot of headbutting and scent marking while kneading paws, they usually won't strike. If the kneading stops but the agitated marking and rubbing continues, a strike may follow.

Also watch the pupils - in a room with normal to mid light, suddenly dilated pupils mean the cat is extremely stimulated by something it sees. In play, the pupils will be huge and sparkling immediately before a pounce, for instance. In agitation it can be a preemptive sign that you're about to get scratched or bitten.

In terms of the relationship between your two cats, watch their body language for the above signs. Some people worry their cats are fighting when they're just playing. Others believe their cats are just fine together, but they're missing signs of posturing and unhappiness between the cats because those signs are so subtle. If your cats ever nose-touch or wash each other, they're well bonded. If they never get that close, then there's an uneasy standoff in your house. In terms of how uneasy, look to body language.

If the cats interact a lot - chasing, rough and tumble with or without squealing - but never relax into mutual grooming, that's actually quite a stressed relationship for the cats in question. Play, wrestling, chasing, posturing - these are all part of multi-cat interaction, but at some point in a well-bonded house they relax into grooming and sleeping curled up together. Often in mid wrestle it'll dissolve into a groom, and vice versa - in mid groom it'll erupt into a scrap!

If your cats never sleep together and never wash each others faces, they are not that well bonded. Subsequent scuffles, fisticuffs, swats, hisses, chasing and posturing is not completely relaxed interaction, it's a struggle to set up the pecking order in the house. The peeing can be a direct effect of those interactions. Just because it's not an out and out squalling cat fight, it can still be very stressful for the cats involved if they don't have that close bond.

Are you sure all the peeing is Miss Kitty? Could any of it also be Greebo?

If the cats are not that well bonded after living together for quite some time (and often two females won't bond well) you may need to look at creating territories and safe spaces for them to remove the confusion about who's top cat where.

Last thing, if you have litter trays but both cats have outdoor access, the dynamic inside your house can be directly affected by influences of yet more cats outdoors. If there is, for instance, an aggressive tom or an aggressive queen in the vicinity who considers your garden to be their territory, and your that cats go outdoors and sometimes encounter these other cats, that can have the direct effect of causing your cats to pee inside as they work hard to establish the house as their own because they feel threatened by the roaming cat.

ToniTuddle

Damn you are good!!! :eek:

*takes serious amount of notes*

Green Dog

Maybe ask the vet about a feline pheromone plug-in diffuser that will release calming feline pheromones into the house. Have a friend with one for her cats, and they are pretty calm! Hope you can sort Miss Kittys problem.
By the way wow The Sweeper thats very impressive advice!

The Sweeper

Just to clarify am neither qualified vet nor behaviourist. Just involved with cats, a lot. (for instance went for dinner last night in a house with 27 cats. That was... Interesting.)